FORUM CLINIC: 12 years using DCC - SIGNIFICANT NEW INFO!

[chateauricher]

Here is a questionsI always seem to be a bit confused about ... [%-)] [%-)] [%-)]

What guage wires should I use for the bus and the feeders ?

[jfugate]

Rokky:

You are welcome! I'm bumping this thread up ... and do intend to get back to it soon after my hiatus of just working on the trains! I promise to post more clinic topics on this thread ... but at least I have a good excuse for now. [swg]

[rockythegoat]

Just found this thread and I have to say THANK YOU for taking the time to do this! I'm about to get a DCC system and start my layout, so this is great as I can do the wiring ahead of time instead of crawling underneath.

Very Nice![tup][tup][tup][tup]

[jfugate]

Simon:

Yeh, the PowerCab announcements on Tony's web site are unclear as to how the USB computer interface fits in, so I guess we'll all have to wait and see. NCE's web site doesn't say squat about the product, so it's probably in the same category as the Tsunami decoder at the moment ... vapourware.

So if you are in the market for the starter DCC system today, Digitrax Zephyr is the only one of the two I listed that is a real product you can buy today, looks like.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate


I personally prefer the NCE user interface over the Digitrax one, and the latest news says that the PowerCab includes a USB computer interface ...

see: http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2005/071905b.htm

You have to buy extra hardware with the Zephyr to get a computer interface.

Having a computer interface to a DCC system will allow you to download free software like DecoderPro and be able to do very sophisticated and complex decoder programming easily with just a few mouse clicks.

Joe, I think you are incorrect. The USB interface is an option for the Powercab. It is listed as an option on the Tony's web site with TBA for the price, so it is not actually available yet.

[jfugate]

Timothy:

For smaller operations and a budget mindset, the Digitrax Zephyr or the NCE PowerCab (new) are good choices.


For more info on the Zephyr, see:
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2004/031104.htm


For more info on the NCE PowerCab, see:
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2005/063005b.htm

The nice thing about both of these starter systems is they are not dead-end systems like the MRC, Bachmann, or Atlas offerings are. With the Zephyr or PowerCab, you can continue to expand as your hobby interests expand.

I personally prefer the NCE user interface over the Digitrax one, and the latest news says that the PowerCab includes a USB computer interface ...

see: http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2005/071905b.htm

You have to buy extra hardware with the Zephyr to get a computer interface.

Having a computer interface to a DCC system will allow you to download free software like DecoderPro and be able to do very sophisticated and complex decoder programming easily with just a few mouse clicks.

[chateauricher]

Joe,

I could use some advice regarding the type of DCC system that would best suit my needs. You can see the plans for my N-scale layout here ...
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=43513&REPLY_ID=461700#461700

Things to consider ...

I am on a (tight) budget, so I would like a system that offers reliability, quality, and up-grade-ability at budget prices.

A sytem that is easy to use and install is preferred.

Since the layout is small, a stationary or a tethered control center is quite fine for me. If going the tethered route, I'd only need one plug-in location.

I plan to run a maximum of 3 trains; with up to 2 operators (me and one other) at a time.

I don't need to have DCC control the turnouts, sound or other accessories.

Any advice you can offer will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[MudHen_462]

Joe... I just received my copy of your new Vol. 3. The chapter's on decoder, and sound installation are really great. I have really enjoyed this clinic, and now I am doubly impressed with your latest DVD.... Thanks,

Bob H.

[selector]

That is odd, Chip. My track has a lengthy spur that spirals up to my mine. It is over 13 feet long, and has one feeder, no other solders...period. I have had zero problems or stalls, even on my light 0-6-0, a notoriously short loco. I'm running the SEB with one QSI and two 100LC's on it.

I sure would like it if someone shouted out on this forum that they had finally solved these glitches with EZ-Track that so many others seem to have. It must be very exasperating to be unable to solve it except with much more work, material, and expense. Sort of belies the name of the product, don't it?

[rrinker]

If you have feeders to both rails ever 3-4 feet, that should be plenty. The only place I have them closer is around a concentration of turnouts, since where possible I put feeders on all 3 legs of a turnout (since they are insulated frog turnouts and do not need gaps).

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

When I switched to a Zephyr I noticed that the engines would stall or slow down at certain areas of the track. All my EZ track joints are soldered, but I only have drop downs every 3-4 feet, with the exception of the top level which has only one for the entire 3 foot diameter circle. Putting more dropdowns was my next step.

[jrbernier]

I have a DCC 'test track' in my study(Digitrax Zephyr) that used Bachmann EZ Track(N/S rail and grey roadbed) for both the 'mainline' and the 'program track'. The 'mainline' is about 6' long with a 22" radius curve('L' shaped desk) - NO problems after 6 months. If this was the 'layout', I would be concerned. My layout has Atlas code 100 N/S flex, with brand new rail joiners. I did not drop feeders every rail length, and after about a year, I started to see trains start to 'slow down' in certain areas(pre-DCC days). Dropping feeders/soldering rail joiners resolved the issue.

Jim

[jrbernier]

I have to agree that seperating the signaling from the actual 'command control' is a good idea. I use a "Logic Rail' signal system to drive the detection and the signals. The only 'non DCC' stuff I use on my 'LocoNet' is the interface from the Decoder Pro(Loco Buffer) to the LocoNet. 10 'gazillion' wires, 2 boosters, PM42's, a DCC clock(Logic Rail), and 5 throttles pounding the LocoNet - No problems. And no address 'zero'(stretching) to run non-DCC engines(I learned my lesson).
I suspect that the NCE based systems might be affected more as the are a 'poll' based bus, but unless you have a very large/busy club system, I really do not think you will see a bandwidth problem there.
As far as 'support', Digitrax has replied back within 24-48 hours - Not too bad. I have heard nothing but good support from NCE, Lenz, & EasyDCC as well. Folks with low-end systems like MRC/Atlas/Bachmann seem to run into support issues or emails that the system cannot do what they want.
I got into Digitrax as the owners sold me on their system in 1994(Portland NMRA Convention) and have provided great support through the years. If I had not had a personal relationship with Digitrax, I would have gone the EasyDCC route. The bottom line for DCC is good support, and Digitrax/Lenz/EasyDCC/NCE appear to be the 'rock solid' leaders in this arena.

Jim

[electrolove]

Joe:

I'm looking forward to the other postings you have.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Sorry for the delay in posting more things to this clinic ... I'm being lazy, sort of.

Been working on the railroad instead of parking my fanny in front of the computer. Or enjoying the summer weather.

I have many more postings I want to make to this clinic still ... so hang in there, I intend to get back to this forum clinic soon.

In the meantime, here it is bumped back up to the top where you can find it!

[:D]

[jfugate]

Sorry for the delay in posting more things to this clinic ... I'm being lazy, sort of.

Been working on the railroad instead of parking my fanny in front of the computer. Or enjoying the summer weather.

I have many more postings I want to make to this clinic still ... so hang in there, I intend to get back to this forum clinic soon.

In the meantime, here it is bumped back up to the top where you can find it!

[:D]

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Someone mentioned Digitrax support earlier. I heard that Digitrax had issues with their spam filtering, and they recommend that if you emailo them that you make sure to include a Digitrax product name in the email subject to ensure it gets to their attention, eg "Problems with my Zephyr" not "problem"

This is a problem for EVERYONE and it sure would be nice if peopel would do these things in their emails. I know there was an effort ont he JMRI group to get peopel to prefix their subject with things like PROBLEM or BUG so as to make it easer for people to see what the message was about. But that didn;t last too long.
I'm really considerign tightening my personal anti-spam - it's ok for people I've already exchanged emails with, as anyone I send to automatically gets whitelisted so they can send me anything back. But for new conversations, forget it. I know of one person who uses a rotating filter using the current date - thus you would have to include the current date in the subject line to get through for the first time.
This problem will not go away until the spammers are TRULY punished for their THEFT (which is EXACTLY what it is) of users' bandwidth.
How bad is it? The other week I won the $5 from Tony's. But I never got the confirmation with my code, it got eaten by my spam filter! I emailed them this information but still haven't heard back.
Hint: just don;t put in one-word subject lines like HELP!

--Randy

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenkal


I monitor the Yahoo users groups and find many negatives about Digitrax customer support and just about all positives about NCE's. Of course, this "could be" because Digitrax appears to have a LOT more users and units out there, resulting in more complaints about service, and "could" explain why NCE, supporting fewer customers, appears to do better.

As a confirmed Digitrax user, I have had reason to e-mail them for support on a couple of occasions. Just the other day for example, I had a question about dispatching locomotives with the new UT4 throttle I picked up at the NTS. I emailed the question at about 6:00 PM on a Sunday evening and had the answer to my question from Digitrax at 7:00 am on Monday. I have absolutely no complaints about the support from Digitrax at all. I am a member of the Digitrax Yahoo group and find this to be a very valuable resource also.

[simon1966]

A heads up on the Decoder Pro. I downloaded the the pre-release version 1.7 to play around with today to see how it handles the QSI decoders found in the BLI locomotives. I was very pleased to find that all 3 of my locos are included in the new QSI definition files. The ability to easily adjust the individual sound volumes of the different sounds is great. So on first view it looks as if the final release version of 1.7 will be an excellent upgrade.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

Here's a basic question perhaps covered elsewhere:
Is there any problem in running both two digit and four digit address locos at the same time, in event two locos have same road numbers, e.g. two 4429's, assigning respective locos addresses 29 and 4429?

Isam:

No problem at all. You tell the decoder to use a 2 digit or a 4 digit address, and then set the address, be it two or 4 digits.

29 will answer to 29 and 4429 will answer to 4429.

I use mixtures of 2 and 4 digit addressing on my layout all the time, and it works like a charm. [:D]

I use consists a lot on my layout and consist addresses can only be 1-127, or for all practical purposes 1-99. I just use the last two digits on the cab of the lead loco, like 29 in the example you gave.

If I have a loco address conflict, I bury it in a consist using a 4 digit number, making sure the loco with the last two digits duplicated is not on either end of the consist. Since I never have to address a mid-consist loco directly, this solves the duplicate loco address issue just fine and allows me to keep using the last two digits on the cab of the lead loco without any address conflict issues.

[robengland]

Someone mentioned Digitrax support earlier. I heard that Digitrax had issues with their spam filtering, and they recommend that if you emailo them that you make sure to include a Digitrax product name in the email subject to ensure it gets to their attention, eg "Problems with my Zephyr" not "problem"

[Isambard]

Here's a basic question perhaps covered elsewhere:
Is there any problem in running both two digit and four digit address locos at the same time, in event two locos have same road numbers, e.g. two 4429's, assigning respective locos addresses 29 and 4429?
Our club of DCC neophytes is gearing up to implement DCC (Digitrax Empire Builder) and we're about to assign addresses to members.

Kudos to you Joe for this excellent forum!

[jfugate]

Always handy to have the other side laid out well ... thanks Randy!

Great post, as always. [:)]

[rrinker]

I've been a fan of C/MRI for a long time - so much so that I totally ruined the original 80's issues of MR whent he original series was presented (but before the fell completely apart I made photocopies of all the C/MRI articles for my files). Int he time BDCC (Before DCC) it was a no-brainer, C/MRI was the way to go. Now I have rethought my position, mainly on a cost basis. Since I am using Digitrax, I already have the Loconet, so there's zero added cost. And Loconet-based signal controllers like the Digitrax SE8C and the Team Digital SRC8 are FAR less expensive than the C/MRI boards. I respect Bruce Chubb as an operator and an engineer, but the compnents of C/MRI are just too expensive for my taste. Probably because of the low volume.
NCE is getting there, with the new switch board that can trigger macros and so forth, and the AIU, but I don't see a full-fledged signalling system based on the cab bus, there just isn't the bus bandwidth for all kinds of extra traffic. On a polled serial bus system like NCE, and like the C/MRI interconnect, you are limited in part by processor speed on how many devices you can poll without adversely affecting the response time of others, unless you add all sorts of prioritization logic. This is where C/MRI shines - the command station processor in NCE and Lenz and CVP is pretty much fixed, it works at a set speed. Maybe they will offer higher-performance command stations for really big installations. With C/MRI, if it takes too long for your signals to respond, you can upgrade to a faster computer. Keeping the control and signalling seperate makes sense in this case - it doesn't matter too much if your signals take a second to respond, but it WILL annoy you if you hit the horn button on your DCC throttle and it takes a second or two for the horn to blow.
Oh yeah, it's the other way around - if you have Digitrax, you can use their signaling system, or C/MRI, or someone else's. If you DON'T have Digitrax, you can still use their signalling system. And just because you use the SE8C to drive your signals doesn't mean you are stuck using the BDL168 for detection - you can use a wide variety of track detectors with the SE8C, possibly even more if you do your I/O using the LocoIO board or the forthcoming 64-line Tower Controller from RR-CirKits. You can use the C/MRI dectector, Track-Tronics has one, RR-CirKits, etc. Personally I am going to use the ones from Rob Paisley, as they come in at $4 or less per block! A fraction of the cost of others.

--Randy

[jfugate]

Trains ...

I'm new to signalling on DCC and just starting to get into that area myself. I do know Digitrax signals uses their LocoNet so if you went with Digitrax and LocoNet signals, your options are narowed quite a bit.

There's nothing that says you have to use DCC to do your signals, however. You can also do what I'm doing and go with tried and true CMRI ala Bruce Chubb. Bruce's system uses a cheap PC, some interface boards, and he even has detectors that work with DCC (Bruce is an avid DCC user himself).

Going with CMRI (Computer Model Railroad Interface) gives you lots of options since CMRI in various forms has been around for 20 years now. There's even a contingent of the JMRI group that's doing JMRI - CMRI stuff.

While I'm sure there will be more LocoNet add-on offerings outside of Digitrax over time, I suspect it will never eclipse CMRI, because CMRI is just too darn flexible. Insisting that you use DCC and/or Loconet for your signalling seems to be an unnecessary technological restriction to me. I like lots of options, and CMRI gives you that.

[Anonymous]

Hi Joe,
I have a question for you. You said a while back that if you use Digitrax you have to use there signals is that right? I would like to use the NJ international signals instead. And is there a special way of connecting the detectors on the track for signaling, I don't have a computer for CTC. Thanks Joe, I enjoy viewing your layout. TrainsRMe

[kenkal]

Joe, thank you for the additional input on deciding on a system. I have read the manuals from both systems (Digitrax really isn't that hard to read, contrary to the many comments I've seen).

I like Digitrax dual cab controller, that the system seems to be everywhere --in clubs, home layouts and LHS's. I'm more than a little concerned that NCE doesn't seem to be be as widely used and available and do worry about them continuing.

I like NCE for the reasons you mentioned and that I find the handheld cab comfortable and there seems to be a lot less buttons to worry about (accidental presses, errors) than the Digitrax.

I like that the NCE radio unit has 2 way communication vs. Digitrax 1 way which requires a plug-in of the radio unit (huh?) to select the loco (as I understand it).

Since I will need a 5 amp system, they aren't cheap to begin with and so at that level, the cost difference isn't horrendous between the NCE and Super Chief.

I monitor the Yahoo users groups and find many negatives about Digitrax customer support and just about all positives about NCE's. Of course, this "could be" because Digitrax appears to have a LOT more users and units out there, resulting in more complaints about service, and "could" explain why NCE, supporting fewer customers, appears to do better.

Although I have never done any decoder programming, and aside from using Decoder-Pro for either system, NCE seems much easier to program the decoders than Digitrax.

And finally, from what I've read, Digitrax doesn't upgrade their software (they appear to go to new units -- read as $$$) whereas NCE does upgrade their software with a new E-Prom for $5 or so. However, I think I read somewhere that this allows Digitrax to be on the leading edge and NCE will always trail along. Being along in my years, this isn't a huge concern of mine -- I just want to run my trains and either unit appears to do that "almost equally" well.

So which am I going to choose? Probably NCE, but the jury is still out. But, since most track with feeders is down and I'm now ready to run the bus wires, time is running out for me. [:(] I know I could likely use either system and be happy with it. Sigh.........

BTW Joe, I really enjoy your articles and responses to this group. So very informative, and CLEAR! A heart felt Thank you!

Originally posted by jfugate

kenkal:

To anyone trying to decide between NCE and Digitrax, let me post a few of my personal observations about these two systems, and which I would pick. Now realize, I use EasyDCC, so hopefully, that would make me a bit less biased when comparing two systems, neither of which I own.

Huntley, IL

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