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What's going on with nce?

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What's going on with nce?
Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, March 18, 2024 3:37 AM

I noticed they are constantly out of inventory.  I also can't find documentation anymore for their command bus protocol.  

What's going on there?

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, March 18, 2024 8:37 AM

DigitalGriffin

I noticed they are constantly out of inventory.  I also can't find documentation anymore for their command bus protocol.  

What's going on there? 

Good question, Don. 

Back in February, 2022, I sent in a Switch-8 board to NCE for repair since it was no longer responding to commands. After a reasonable amount of time without hearing back from NCE, I called to inquire on the status of the Switch-8 board. I was told that it was not repairable and that I could purchase a new one at a substantial discount, but the item was on backorder. Several months later, I called and inquired once again and was told that the item was still on backorder. In February, 2023, now one year later, I called once again. Still on backorder. I have given up on the matter, and NCE is still holding my original Switch-8.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, March 18, 2024 8:41 AM

I just took a look at the NCE website. Lots of items "out of stock".

Rich

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Posted by reasearchhound on Monday, March 18, 2024 9:32 AM

Interesting. Around five years ago when I wanted to replace my MRC system I was inclined to go with Digitrax but nobody had them in stock so I went with NCR - which was available. That was back before the pandemic related supply chain issues so not sure what the Digitrax shortage was about (but I doubt it was due to overwhelming demand). Who knows what that kind of issue could be around now.

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Posted by Tophias on Monday, March 18, 2024 10:28 AM

reasearchhound

Interesting. Around five years ago when I wanted to replace my MRC system I was inclined to go with Digitrax but nobody had them in stock so I went with NCR - which was available. That was back before the pandemic related supply chain issues so not sure what the Digitrax shortage was about (but I doubt it was due to overwhelming demand). Who knows what that kind of issue could be around now.

 

I don't know the exact timing of your purchase but back several years ago Digitrax suffered a near fatal natural disaster, either a fire or a hurricane. their Florida corporate site was practically completely destroyed. It took over a year for them to get back to be able to reasonably provide products. It would appear today they are back to normal. This doesn't answer what's going on at NCE but just to explain Digitrax's past issue.

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, March 18, 2024 11:40 AM

I was chatting with a guy who had an NCE system that packed it in during the height of Covid. He immediately started going through serious withdrawal being on lockdown and not being able to run trains. He knew of the delays with NCE and did not want to send his system in. I suggested he just take it to a local electronics repair facility and see if they could fix it. The tech at the shop said electronics are electronics we'll see what we can do. He had it back in two days working perfectly.

Brent

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, March 18, 2024 12:08 PM

When I entered the model railroad hobby back in early 2004, my LHS guys intoduced me to DCC and set me up with an NCE PH-Pro 5 amp system.

Early on, I began acquiring DCC-ready locomotives and installing NCE decoders. Later, I added an NCE Mini Panel and a Switch-8 to automate my train station track work. 

I think very highly of NCE, their staff, and their customer service. I hope all is well with them.

Rich

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, March 18, 2024 12:23 PM

richhotrain
I think very highly of NCE, their staff, and their customer service. I hope all is well with them.

So do I, they have always gone above and beyond when answering questions for me.

I remember the day I brought my baby home.Laugh

Brent

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, March 18, 2024 1:26 PM

BATMAN

I was chatting with a guy who had an NCE system that packed it in during the height of Covid. He immediately started going through serious withdrawal being on lockdown and not being able to run trains. He knew of the delays with NCE and did not want to send his system in. I suggested he just take it to a local electronics repair facility and see if they could fix it. The tech at the shop said electronics are electronics we'll see what we can do. He had it back in two days working perfectly.

 

Brent, this doesn't surprise me at all.  A lot of folks are mezmorized by what is in the black box, but most of it is likely common stuff.  Sure, the DCC board is likely proprietary in its design, but I can't see where the board itself would actually wear out.

The stuff that wears out or breaks is probably the various connection pieces and interfaces; wires, plugs, buttons. etc. that can probably be repaired by any experienced repairman.

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Posted by maxman on Monday, March 18, 2024 2:04 PM

BATMAN
I suggested he just take it to a local electronics repair facility and see if they could fix it. The tech at the shop said electronics are electronics we'll see what we can do.

I think finding a shop would be the challenge.  Finding bad components is one thing, but having the knowledge to understand what the device is supposed to do might be something else.

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, March 18, 2024 2:15 PM

Doughless

The stuff that wears out or breaks is probably the various connection pieces and interfaces; wires, plugs, buttons. etc. that can probably be repaired by any experienced repairman.

 

 
My Power-Pro-R stopped working, I popped it open to find a loose wire, not a fault of NCE. I soldered it back on and I was back in business.

Brent

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, March 18, 2024 3:09 PM

I read a few months ago that NCE was suffering from the chip shortage like many companies were.

I love my NCE Power Cab! My old club used Digitrax and I hated them. All the buttons are the same and the screen is pitiful. My NCE is easy to read and use.

There! Now that I have offended every dedicated Digitrax fan out there I will run and hide somewhere.

Cheers!!

Dave

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, March 18, 2024 3:25 PM

hon30critter

I read a few months ago that NCE was suffering from the chip shortage like many companies were.

I love my NCE Power Cab! My old club used Digitrax and I hated them. All the buttons are the same and the screen is pitiful. My NCE is easy to read and use.

There! Now that I have offended every dedicated Digitrax fan out there I will run and hide somewhere.

Cheers!!

Dave

 



I don't blame you as an owner of a DCS 51.   But the DCS 52 and all the new stuff is leaps and bounds better.

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, March 18, 2024 5:27 PM

hon30critter

I read a few months ago that NCE was suffering from the chip shortage like many companies were.

I love my NCE Power Cab! My old club used Digitrax and I hated them. All the buttons are the same and the screen is pitiful. My NCE is easy to read and use.

There! Now that I have offended every dedicated Digitrax fan out there I will run and hide somewhere.

Cheers!!

Dave

 



There's a misunderstanding here.   The only chips that were in short supply were those using leading edge.   The chips used in DCC are hardly leading edge.  There's PLENTY of mature node surplus there.

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by betamax on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 3:41 AM

Actually this was mentioned on the Modelers Life podcast.

The parts he needed were, in his words, "jellybean parts". Everyone used them.

The suppliers were blunt: If you want them at that price, you'll be waiting 2 years to get them. If you are willing to pay more, a year. Want them right now, this is what it will cost you.

If NCE were to pay the price to get the parts now, their MSRP would have increased in turn and priced them out of the market.

 

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Posted by rrebell on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 6:40 AM

DigitalGriffin

 

 
hon30critter

I read a few months ago that NCE was suffering from the chip shortage like many companies were.

I love my NCE Power Cab! My old club used Digitrax and I hated them. All the buttons are the same and the screen is pitiful. My NCE is easy to read and use.

There! Now that I have offended every dedicated Digitrax fan out there I will run and hide somewhere.

Cheers!!

Dave

 

 

 



I don't blame you as an owner of a DCS 51.   But the DCS 52 and all the new stuff is leaps and bounds better.

 

 

Never had a problem with the 51. I find that Digitrax plays well with older stuff as far as decoders go.

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 9:01 AM

betamax

The suppliers were blunt: If you want them at that price, you'll be waiting 2 years to get them. If you are willing to pay more, a year. Want them right now, this is what it will cost you.

If NCE were to pay the price to get the parts now, their MSRP would have increased in turn and priced them out of the market.



But they are selling nothing now.   How do you keep the lights on when you occassionally only have the entry level cab available?  People are waiting on parts and upgrades.  I'm not sure I understand that business model.

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 9:37 AM

rrebell

Never had a problem with the 51. I find that Digitrax plays well with older stuff as far as decoders go.

 

 



Oh I agree.  The DCS51 was rock stable.  It just was NOT user friendly...at all.  That was the point of contention noted above.

Ironically, the DCS52 while more user friendly has WORSE options.   For example, if you want to learn how to setup option switches, you have to grab the DCS51 manual.   The DCS52 doesn't cover option switches for the command station at all!  So you hope you are throwing the proper switches.

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Posted by gregc on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 10:41 AM

DigitalGriffin
I'm not sure I understand that business model.

are you suggesting selling things at a loss is a better business model?

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 1:16 PM

gregc

are you suggesting selling things at a loss is a better business model? 



No.  I never suggested such a thing.  But if they have to boost prices 35% now to get the components they need, then so be it.   There are plenty of businesses that set a high price, and then offer cheaper prices later as mfg cost or demand goes down.  

There are those who need parts who don't have an option once they are invested in a system.  (Unless they switch over entirely to DCC++ or Digitrax) 

If you run a club, and your command station goes down is it viable to just shrug your shoulders as your club is down for weeks?  A multi thousand dollar switch to digitrax where you ask each member to buy a new throttle cab isn't a viable option either.

To be honest with you, there's also no excuse for some of these parts NOT to be available.  Cables for throttles, for example, are always out of stock.  And HBridge MOSFETS are VERY common from multiple vendors (used in boosters).  And the inside of a powercab is more complex than a regular Pro cab throttle.  (Because of the power circuitry involved)  Yet somehow these are available and the Pro cabs aren't.  The only thing that is proprietary is the command bus protocol and how it is generated/executed and/or the 2 line LCD display.  Which they seem to have plenty of if they can make the powercab.

They could have created a whole new compatible system using common off the shelf components like ATMEL (Arduino) and ESP chips by this point.  And they are cheap.  a common arduino chip is $10.  Add some HBridge MOSFETS and you are good to go.

All this lack of availability is costing them new customers as well.  And as user base goes down, so does the business.

So something just doesn't smell right.  I'm not trying to wish them ill, or spread a bad light on them.  But it is concerning what's going on in NY.

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by IC_Tom on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 2:09 PM

I wouldn't go as far as saying something doesn't smell right.  It is definitely a poor business model, though, as you have said.

It's a judgment call, choosing to lose stock rather than raise prices.  It's bad judgment IMHO, because with a few exceptions, it's like closing the doors on a retail establishment or extended silence on a radio station.  You lose customers that never come back.  Once forced to find an alternative, there is often little motivation to re-visit the older choice.

As for electronics parts shortages, it's not COVID and it's not new.  As a mfr, the choice is what you do about it.  Parts obsolesce in a matter of a few years and happen all the time.  When's the last time you could easily buy a TO-3 transistor?  For that matter, try finding non-power type TO-220 or TO-92 transistors - or the same through-hole parts of any kind that were readily available 10 years ago.

It could be that the real choice is whether to re-design and they either don't want to do that or can't.

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Posted by betamax on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 7:50 PM

DigitalGriffin

 

 
betamax

The suppliers were blunt: If you want them at that price, you'll be waiting 2 years to get them. If you are willing to pay more, a year. Want them right now, this is what it will cost you.

If NCE were to pay the price to get the parts now, their MSRP would have increased in turn and priced them out of the market.

 



But they are selling nothing now.   How do you keep the lights on when you occassionally only have the entry level cab available?  People are waiting on parts and upgrades.  I'm not sure I understand that business model.

 

 

NCE's model is when they get parts, the manufacture the product and ship. They keep little if any inventory of finished product. 

NCE is a small fish in a very large pond. The small fish get the leftovers. When the interview was recorded, the "normal" price for common parts meant they would proably be delivered this year. At that time you paid a premium because you and your suppliers were competing with everyone else for a limited supply. There still would be the issue of timely delivery.

I doubt you would be willing to pay 35 - 40% more for a product due to supply issues. 

 

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 9:24 PM

Will people pay for a 35% price increase?  If they don't have a choice....yes.

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Wednesday, March 20, 2024 12:49 AM

IC_Tom
TO-3 transistor?  For that matter, try finding non-power type TO-220 or TO-92 transistors - or the same through-hole parts of any kind that were readily available 10 years ago

 

You may be right. I haven't seen those parts in years.  Still I'm going to let this go. 

I don't believe nce is a bad company.  They made really nice stuff.  I wish them the best despite my doubts.  But I'm sure I'm not the only one noticing.

 But in the back of my mind I'm hoping they are just secretly investing most money into a new cab design the way digitrax did.

 

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Posted by nealknows on Thursday, March 21, 2024 8:30 AM

Despite some of the comments here, NCE decoders AND their new PH-Pro system is out in the market at dealers. The new system was mentioned on another forum. 

NCE has a great customer service department, both on the phone and for repairs. 

Like many manufacturers, parts and more happen to be in short supply. When was the last time you walked into the supermarket and saw a sticker on the shelf in an empty spot stating 'unavailable due to manufacturer supply issues'? I've seen this many times, so let's put this all into perspective. NCE is not a Walthers or Athearn, they're a small successful company doing what they do best and that is make DCC systems and components.

Neal

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, March 21, 2024 10:52 AM

I'm not buying this argument that NCE is waiting patiently for its suppliers to catch up on production of parts so that NCE can market its products at more reasonable prices. That may never happen. I get the argument that NCE cannot market its product if parts are unavailable, a supply problem. But, if parts are available but the suppliers are demanding higher prices, if NCE wants to stay in business, it better acquire the parts, albeit at higher prices. Of course, that means charging its customers higher prices, but so be it. Fish or cut bait.

Rich

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Posted by BATMAN on Thursday, March 21, 2024 11:36 AM

100% Rich. You charge what you have to and hopefully, stay in business and lower your prices as your costs come down. How long can you stay in business selling nothing?

Brent

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Thursday, March 21, 2024 11:59 AM

nealknows
Despite some of the comments here, NCE decoders AND their new PH-Pro system is out in the market at dealers.



PH Pro only became available last week.  The Powercab a few weeks before that.  That is MONTHS of this stuff being out of stock.  Far as I can tell, some people (not just 1) have been waiting over a year!

There are no separate Pro Cabs, no cables, no separate boosters, no smart boosters, no USB interfaces for things like JRMI, no auto switches, no individual command stations, no switch 8's, no fused breakers.

Are cables and fuses hard to come by parts?

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Posted by Water Level Route on Thursday, March 21, 2024 12:09 PM

I'm not sure who's shopping where, but this thread made me curious.  I had no problem finding NCE products for sale at various online model rr retailers.  Decoders to throttles to full systems.  Huh?  Maybe it's just me.

Mike

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, March 21, 2024 12:11 PM

BATMAN

100% Rich. You charge what you have to and hopefully, stay in business and lower your prices as your costs come down. How long can you stay in business selling nothing? 

Yep, I love NCE. I have owned my NCE 5 amp PH-Pro wireless system for over 20 years. If the time comes to replace it, I will buy another NCE system, assuming any are available, regardless of price.

Rich

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