I will be present with the On30 Dirty 30 group layout. I believe it is in the Mallary building, booth 155.
Are you giving a clinic, or do you have a booth?
Hello group,
FYI, if you are attending the Springfield-Amherst Show (Massachusetts) at the end of the month, I will be there with my prototype to give live demonstration and explainations if interested...
Cheers,
Patrick
Until the last couple decades, the protype used simple ""yes-no" sequential relay logic. I still use it on my layout.
For interlocking signals:
Is the block ahead occupied? Yes = red, no goes to the next condition.
Is the route aligned?, no = red, yes goes to next condition. (This may take a series of several contacts)
Has the dispatcher given permission? Yes = green (clear), no = red.
This is a somewhat simplified example, but it is how the prototype did it before computers.
Sheldon
Now might be a good time to contact our buddy RR_Mel Sounds like an arduino or even a raspberry pi would solve these issues.
I created an Excel spreadsheet to work out the logic of automatic signaling. Using conditional formatting of the cells to indicate red-yellow-green and combinations thereof based on occupancy and switch condition . . . IF A OR B THEN "RED" . . . nothing secret or proprietary.
LINK to SNSR Blog
PatrickASTART 4; FREE 5 RUN 3; TURNOUT 1 LEFT; ... END;
PatrickAbut without any software/computer management like TrainController or JMRI.
not sure there's an advantage to not using a PC for control. i don't believe the reluctance is using a PC, i believe the issue is the cryptic notation used by such systems to describe the desired behavior. i've seen this professionally (embedded FW) as well
presumably you have something, PC?, where the above script is entered which translates is into the CVs you mentioned that configure your HW. while a PC may not be used for control, seems that one is required to at least provide a human interface to submit the script, i.e. management
in general, the notation needs to be in the domain that the person thinks, not a notation that's easy for computer software to read.
having thought about how to describe layout trackage and signalling, this gives me an oportunity to think about train automation (which i've seen done elsewhere)
what strikes me about the script above is the turnout command. shouldn't a train be described by
while it may make sense to just specify a sequence of turnout positions on small layouts, doesn't it make sense to have a more complete description of a layout -- blocks and turnout positions connecting the block -- so conflicts can be determined
it doesn't seem practical, nor realistic to establish a route before a train departs -- aren't there other trains on the RR. So wouldn't it make sense to establish the route as the train proceeds? of course a train be held if there is a conflict with another train that prevents establishing the route ahead if it until another train passes. ("just in time" routing)
a more detailed question is the issue of blocking. of course block are delimited near signals. i'm curious about is the length/# of blocks.
if single track, is there just a single block between signals or are there short block just before the signal which recognizes that a train is close to/approaching a signal and needs to stop?
there could be 3 blocks between signals for trains running in both directions. but maybe a solely automated system has just short blocks before each signal
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc how does a user specify the "script"?
how does a user specify the "script"?
For now, the script is a set of instructions typically the list of sections the train will follow. Technically, this list is entered in the script card using CVs, one CV value for one step of the script. For example, starting at address 513 of the card, you enter instruction 1. Then address 514, instruction 2 with one parameter. Address 516, instruction 3, and so on... I am using a space from address 513 and up for now... All this is done with my Digitrax Zephyr as a regular accessory decoder card.
The script itself could be (without disclosing to many info):
The loc starts at section 4. If section 5 is free (looking at the signal aspect) then run at speed 3 if possible (also depending on the ascpect), if not then stop... Move turnout 1 in left position. Etc... Until the end of the script, and restart. Of course this is the responsability of the engineer to enter a valid script depending on the layout. If there are multiple trains on the layout, the script will automatically adapt the speed of the automatic train to eventually stop it to avoid collision. There is no option for now to stop a manual train automatically.
Hope it makes sense...
PatrickAwithout any software/computer management
PatrickAmy system is made of 2 parts: the signaling and the scripting.
Passenger service is more automation oriented by its nature. Passenger being big in Europe You most likely will find far more interest in this system there. Display layouts would also be an area of interest since they generally are more automated. Those that model public transit style systems also would have a lot of interest. There are lots that would be interested, just not near as many in the US as elsewhere nice to see upgrades to signal systems. Keep at it
shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
PatrickAI built everyting myself. No commercial components except the micro-controllers. Each section is equiped with a current sensing circuit which is used to detect the position of a train.
That is all amazingly impressive... great work.
PatrickAI will continue surfing the forum.
Please do. I hope to see a lot of your creativity here.
I am a "lone wolf" type of Model Railroader. I use my signals for my convenience, not any prototypical use. Mainly to indicate turnouts are routed correctly for the intended path.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Ok, good to know you have those functions able to work separately.
Keep this in mind when developing signal systems, in the selectively compressed world of model trains, interlocking signals are more important and more useful than progressive block signals.
It terms of actually guiding operators, knowing how turnouts are set and occupancy of the next block are most important.
Model layouts, even large ones, seldom have long enough runs to take advantage of permissive signals.
Thank you for your reply...
Actually, my system is made of 2 parts: the signaling and the scripting. So it is possible to use only the signaling system on a layout without the scripting one. In this way, engineers can drive their locomotives as usual, but the signals will be displayed depending on the occupancy of the sections.
I built everyting myself. No commercial components except the micro-controllers. Each section is equiped with a current sensing circuit which is used to detect the position of a train.
This same system can also be used to populate a CTC with leds, etc... but I didn't do it with my simple test layout. So it can be used for different purposes.
Anyway, thanks for the information. I will continue surfing the forum...
Patrick,
Welcome, you replies will be delayed by moderators at first.
So it appears you are using IR sensors and some sort of logic boards for this.
Don't be surprised or discouraged if there is not much response to your project on this forum.
While there are always exceptions, most North American modelers are not really interested in full automation. And in fact only a small percentage are even willing to invest time and money into working signals.
Most modelers over here like the idea of being the engineer, manually controling the train, and DCC affords them the most features to that objective.
Large layouts in North America are often designed purposely to require a crew of people for complete operations and may require as many as 8-12 people, with each trains having its own operator.
Those who do invest in signaling also generally prefer to operate the locos, and follow the signals like a real engineer would have to do.
Your work looks interesting, but not likely to attract many who would follow in your foot steps in this group.
Are you making your own circuit boards or are these adapted commercial products?
I still use DC myself, but I use an advanced cab control system along with wireless radio throttles for an experiance very similar to DCC, complete with CTC and signaling - but no real automation.
I do have some circuits that will automaticly stop trains in hidden storage tracks.
And I use logic circuits that select all the needed turnouts for moderately complex routes by pressing only one or two buttons.
But all trains are controlled by an "operator" - or are left to run on secure dedicated routes for display running.
Hello Group,
I would like to introduce you to a new system I built with electronic boards, but without any software/computer management like TrainController or JMRI.
It is true that some modelers like using computer to drive and manage their layout, but being in computer science all days for my job, I wanted a system that doesn't require a screen or a keyboard... So I developed a serie of electronic boards that manage signaling, occupancy detection, train scripting, etc...
You can have access to multiple videos I have made on Youtube, at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFCViYE_2bIZRC88drGYhIg. Those describe the results of my investigations and design on a small prototype layout. You can see, 2 trains running on a loop, this loop is divided in sub-sections, each of them protected by a signal. A closed signal will make a loc to stop in front of it, avoiding any collision between automatic trains.
You will see multiple types of signals. I started to develop this system with the french signaling system in mind, but I am currently updating this system to US (sort of...). This American (or even Canadian system) is really difficult to put in place. So I might need some help of some of you who are expert in signaling in general ;-)
Anyway, I encourage you to watch those videos and come back to me with questions or comments. It will help me drive the development of this system.
Thanks and happy watching,