Hi. Has anyone purchased and is using the Atlas Signal board (#70000046) for your signals ? Do you like it? Do you find it easy to operate signals either manually or automatically? I welcome any and all comments. Thanks. JRP
Bumping your post, I'd like to know the answer to that too.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Come on guys. None of you use Atlas signal system?
So I can't speak personally about the Atlas system but there is a guy I have met who is using it and likes it. He has posts occasionally on The Train Exchange Facebook page. I have messaged with him about the Atlas system and he told me it does exactly what he wants and seems to have a lot of capabilities he is not using. He also said it will work with other manufacturers signals too, as he had a couple of custom signals made and they work fine. I am planning to use the Atlas signals on my layout, just not the controller.
Good Luck, Morpar
Thanks Morpar, that's a start.
I speculated in another thread that there are only 100 or 200 regular posters in the forum, but there are at least 10 times as many lurkers. Lurkers this is your chance to speak up.
JRP Hi. Has anyone purchased and is using the Atlas Signal board (#70000046) for your signals ? Do you like it? Do you find it easy to operate signals either manually or automatically? I welcome any and all comments. Thanks. JRP
I was sitting on this one for a little while. I did not think I had the infomation the OP was looking for.
I started installing on Feb. 10, 2007 with what I will now call the 'first generation' of Atlas HO scale Signal System. The signal control board (SCB) (copyright 2006) #234, a block detector board (BDB) #233 plus the Type G target head.
Then Atlas dropped the ball and shut down the HO scale system. I talked to Reps. at train shows.
So there I was 1/8 of the layout was protected by signals.
They work great, on GREEN the Engineer will enter the block and the light goes to RED and when the train clears that block the light goes to YELLOW for a set time then clears to GREEN. If the powered loco leaves that block and there are no resistor wheel sets or current using cars in that train that block will go to YELLOW then go to GREEN. This you do not want.
I needed to add Jay-Bee resistor wheel sets or SM resistors to some rolling stock axles.
All lights being tripped automatically by the train, I do not use manual tripping.
Now Atlas has brought out (copyright 2018 v2.5 this info. is on the SCB) what I will call the 'second generation' starter kit #70000142. Which I have been stocking up on since Oct.19, 2019. It includes #70 000 076 signal, #70 000 046 signal control board and a cable with quick start guide (no quick start guide came in any of the packages). You do need to supply a block detector of your choice.
I have not depleated my 'first generation' supplies yet so I have not installed the new universal SCB #70 000046.
Well at least we got some information on the system. I appreciate your response and your updates on what you have done so far. For the small number of signals I plan to install (maybe 3), I should be able to operate them easily with this system.
Thank you.
I do think Atlas did or is coming out with the Pennsy position light with the 7 lights in HO but I have yet to see them at any hobby shop or train show.
I do like my signals with the RED-YELLOW-GREEN aspects.
i'm puzzled by this unit. not sure diagrams in the manual clearly explain all the connectios to the board. looks like it is designed to interface to Atlas signals using specific cable. the pinouts for a red, yellow and green LEDs aren't described
it's not clear to me what the connection on J5 are for, presumably at least 3 block occupancy inputs
it also looks like it only operates on a single block occupancy input so it turns on the red LED when the block is occupied and only turns on the yellow LED for 8 seconds before turning on the green LED
can anyone explain?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Greg the link in your post above is Atlas's 19 page Basic Operation Manual, this must be what they call there Quick Start Manual. There is also a 24 page Advanced Signal Guide. I have not looked at either one in any depth. Maybe you will find more info. in the 24 page ASG.
I'll check back tonight.
the diagram on pg 9 of the Advanced Signal Guide summarizes the components and connections of the system. took me a while to understand the various options, which includes simulating an APPROACH indication by simply turning on the yellow LED for 8 seconds after turning the red LED off and before turning on the green LED.
the primary input from the block detector goes to the Din pin on the J5 connector which has several other outputs for panels.
an RJ45 connector is for the signal. there's a cable from Atlas to connect an Atlas signal to the board. you'd need to make you own cable for non-Atlas signals. while the rj-45 connector is 8-conductors, and 4-conductor rj-11 connector can be used for the 3 LEDS and a common (see table 3)
in case you don't know
the board is designed to be used with other boards with rj-11 connections between them (J1 and J2) so a board knows the next block is occupied to indicate APPROACH. I didn't see a pinout for that connection to know how to wire it directly to a block detector with the expense of another Atlas board, but am guessing it's just 2 pins, the block dector output and ground
i didn't see any discussion accounting for open switches which should result in a STOP indication.
They also describe using 2 boards, one in each direction (they could have designed a board to support at least 2 signals)
it's interesting to see how by various commercial products are designed and the capability/limitations of those products
My suggestion is to call Atlas 908-687-0880 and when you get the operator ask to speak to the person in charge of the Atlas signal system (Yes, there IS a dedicated person at Atlas who is in charge of this area) and ask your questions. I know the guy and I'm sure he would be helpful to answer your questions. However, I would wait a week as I know everyone (including him) are preparing for the Amherst Train Show.
Good luck!
Neal
I looked at the Atlas system years ago, my opinion, limited and too exspensive.
Just my opinion, but on a model railroad it makes more sense to put the signaling emphasises on interlocking siginals (turnuouts and junctions) rather than block signals.
How many blocks does the typical layout have without a turnout or group of turnouts that would require an interlocking in real life?
Back in the early days of the hobby, many great electronics minds (Chubb, Ravenscroft, Mallery to name a few) suggested this approach and published lots of designs for such systems.
Interlocking signals respond to both turnout position and detection and are "absolute" signals - trains must stop for red over red indications.
Block signals are not always "absolute" and simply control the speed and spacing of trains following each other.
AGAIN, just my opinion, but too many modelers go to far into the weeds worring about some obscure singal practice of the railroad they model rather than focus on the core of a working system that would make sense on a model layout.
The problem is interlocking signals cannot be built with "plug and play" modules without those modules being complex, expensive and having a high learning curve.
On the other hand, simply learning how signals work, then buiding your own signal system to fit your track plan, using Arduino, computer systems, relays, or whatever, makes more sense and will cost less.
Sheldon
I think it depends on how much 'realism' one wants on their layout and what their goal is with them. Are they operating or are they looking to have trains run with some type of electronic system controlling it?
I bring this up as I host operating sessions with a crew of 6. I have signals at interlocking areas and the signals are controlled manually and with a relay that overrides the rotary switch when there's a switch thrown against the signal. Tower operators in the day (and maybe now) would control signals as trains entered the next block. That's what I do. My relays are very inexpensive (Atlas relays) and I have my signals hooked up to them and my rotary switch. This system works well for my layout, and is a reminder to the dispatcher (usually me) that someone forgot to normalize the turnout in the next block.
nealknows I think it depends on how much 'realism' one wants on their layout and what their goal is with them. Are they operating or are they looking to have trains run with some type of electronic system controlling it? I bring this up as I host operating sessions with a crew of 6. I have signals at interlocking areas and the signals are controlled manually and with a relay that overrides the rotary switch when there's a switch thrown against the signal. Tower operators in the day (and maybe now) would control signals as trains entered the next block. That's what I do. My relays are very inexpensive (Atlas relays) and I have my signals hooked up to them and my rotary switch. This system works well for my layout, and is a reminder to the dispatcher (usually me) that someone forgot to normalize the turnout in the next block.
OK, Neal, I guess I agree and it sounds like you have a simple and practical system. Are you running DCC?
I am just starting a new layout, but have designed and used before the system I will use. I will have the option to operate much like you do, or to have a CTC dispatcher for the whole mainline.
I run DC, but with an advance cab control system and wireless throttles, so there are not "block toggles" in the traditional sense.
My signals do not require manual input, they respond correctly to three inputs:
ONE-Cab assignments performed at the dispatch panel or at local tower panels - these are done with pushbuttons, not toggles, and many blocks are powered automaticly based on turnout position.
TWO-Turnout route selection. Routes are are controlled by pushbuttons that are duplicated at both tower panels and the CTC panel. One button selects a whole route thru the interlocking and normalizes all other turnouts in that interlocking not effected by that route.
THREE-Dectection. Detection sets a given route red as each block becomes occupied.
So the indications are both largely prototypical and truely functional for operators.
I do skip some prototype aspects, or have them "dummied in" using what would be called "approach logic". Basically some "yellow" aspects are simply omitted or simulated.
In most cases there is only one or two blocks between interlockings.
Here is the track plan:
Sheldon,
I do run DCC. I have a two track main with two tracks that go to and from the freight yard and my lower level via a helix. While the signals are controlled manually at my interlockings, there is an override with the relay if the turnout is against the route. On the mainline I have a few areas when the signal is controlled by the turnout position. The layout is mid-sized (20' x 20') on two levels. Works well and op sessions are enjoyable.
I don't want to get too dependent on automation (CTC or auto block control), although I did have the opportunity to get a custom made signal system for my layout.
Good luck with your layout!
nealknows Sheldon, I do run DCC. I have a two track main with two tracks that go to and from the freight yard and my lower level via a helix. While the signals are controlled manually at my interlockings, there is an override with the relay if the turnout is against the route. On the mainline I have a few areas when the signal is controlled by the turnout position. The layout is mid-sized (20' x 20') on two levels. Works well and op sessions are enjoyable. I don't want to get too dependent on automation (CTC or auto block control), although I did have the opportunity to get a custom made signal system for my layout. Good luck with your layout! Neal
Well just to be clear, my system does not automate train movements, it just works like a real CTC or tower authority system, but the CTC is not the full blown version, it is simplified.
Under CTC operations the dispatcher gives all mainline train permissions, operators only have to control the speed and direction of their train, they do not assign control sections (electrical blocks, not signal blocks) to their throttles or throw turnouts. Engineers need only to obey the signals. BUT, since it is DC, it is cleverly wired so that if they run a red/red signal, their train just stops - it never runs into someone else's control.
Under local tower operation mode, the train crews can be their own tower operators and then at each interlocking they do assign control sections to their throttles and select turnout routes. This typically requires only pushing two or three buttons and there is no need for them to relinquish control of prior sections or reset prior routes - the next crew will be doing that right behind them.
While all this happens signals indicate route permissions and occupancy automaticly.
I think the Atlas system would work well for me.
Having mainline signals change as the train passes would be a nice feature, even if it has nothing to do with actually controlling train movement.
Most of my signals are just there to show turnout position.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 I think the Atlas system would work well for me. Having mainline signals change as the train passes would be a nice feature, even if it has nothing to do with actually controlling train movement. Most of my signals are just there to show turnout position. -Kevin
A simple system like that can be done for considerably less cost than the Atlas system.
ATLANTIC CENTRALA simple system like that can be done for considerably less cost than the Atlas system.
My interest in signals is marginal at best, and since I intend to run the layout alone, it is completely unnecessary.
However... I did buy these nifty signals... And signal bridges...
-Photographs by Kevin Parson
If I am ever going to use one for anything except turnout position, it will need to be something that requires minimal effort to install.
I might choose Atlas when the time comes... Or... I might just hook them up to toggle switches and only illuminate them for photographs.
Are those bulbs in the signals? I'm of the minimal effort camp too.
An Arduino can be had for ~$10, has 11 spare pins supporting 2 signals (blkOcc and 3 LEDs) with fairly simple code, the same on each board
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gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL A simple system like that can be done for considerably less cost than the Atlas system. An Arduino can be had for ~$10, has 11 spare pins supporting 2 signals (blkOcc and 3 LEDs) with fairly simple code, the same on each board 1203
ATLANTIC CENTRAL A simple system like that can be done for considerably less cost than the Atlas system.
Understood and agreed, what would you use for detection? By two signals do you mean two blocks or bi directional?
ATLANTIC CENTRALwhat would you use for detection?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL By two signals do you mean two blocks or bi directional?
but it makes sense to control two signals in opposite directions that are close to one another with the same board and each signal would need 2 block inputs for APPROACH. there are a sufficent # of pins, 5 for each signal
I/O expanders can increase the # of signals controlled by a single board, but multiple "nodes" would reduce wiring
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gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL what would you use for detection? on the club layout we're working on, we discovered that PSX circuit breakers and ARs have a block occupancy output and are used on each block. but i've worked with the bridge rectifier and transformer type detectors ATLANTIC CENTRAL By two signals do you mean two blocks or bi directional? not sure what you're asking. only 3 block inputs are needed for two signals in same direction that indicate APPROACH. but it makes sense to control two signals in opposite directions that are close to one another with the same board and each signal would need 2 block inputs for APPROACH. there are a sufficent # of pins, 5 for each signal I/O expanders can increase the # of signals controlled by a single board, but multiple "nodes" would reduce wiring 1358
ATLANTIC CENTRAL what would you use for detection?
on the club layout we're working on, we discovered that PSX circuit breakers and ARs have a block occupancy output and are used on each block. but i've worked with the bridge rectifier and transformer type detectors
not sure what you're asking. only 3 block inputs are needed for two signals in same direction that indicate APPROACH.
Greg, whem you say "signals" are you referring to each individual "light"? or the whole 2 or 3 light assembly?
Each light is typically called an aspect.
Yes, to get a true "approach" or "yellow" you need input the next block, and from the block on either side for bidirectional signals.
This why original relay based systems on the prototype used one detection relay circuit but had separate east and west circuits to actually light the aspects.
But easy enough to do with logic if you have enough inputs.
The problem with model train layouts is distance vs train length vs high percentage of turnouts per distance.
In the case of a layout like mine, approach signals are meaningless, what is going on two blocks away may as well be the other side of the world, UNLESS you make your signal blocks extreemly short. Back in the day, on busy east coast railroads signal blocks are generally short - 1 to 3 miles, in a time when the average freight train was only 1/2 to 1 mile long.
That block distance gave good location reporting to CTC dispatchers, and allowed pretty dense traffic.
How much should we selectively compress blocks on a model layout?
On my new layout, the signal blocks vary from 20' (1750 scale ft) to 50' (4350 scale ft) and there is only a few places where there is more than one block between interlockings, making almost all my signals "absolute".
So permissive block signals with "approach" or "approach medium" aspects simply don't exist. And of course using DC, I do need absolute boundries for control purposes.
Point of all this? You don't really need real "approach" aspects on a model layout. Have fewer longer signal blocks. Put a signal half way thru each actual electrical block. When the signal ahead is green, that "dummy" block signal is green. When the signal ahead is red, the dummy block signal is yellow. The dummy block signal never goes red. Saves a lot of wiring or programing and saves outputs.
My interlocking (absolute - speed or route) signals never show approach for the main route, they only show clear or stop. Diverging routes with restricted speed only show "yellow" or red to indicate speed restriction or stop.
My signal heads are two an three aspect color light style as needed.
So the typical interlocking signal has two or three heads for each track in each direction depending on the number and speed restrictions of the routes, just like the prototype mostly did.
Lots of lights (some that never light) but easy to configure logic, just like the original systems on the prototype.
So detection and simple logic, with a processor or relays can provide basic signaling that looks realistic "most of the time", and actually applies to the movements of the trains.
The trick is to focus on the interlockings - where the action is....
Greg,
Bridge rectifier detectors are fine for DCC, not so useful with DC. They suck up too much voltage and do not detect stopped trains.
I use these:
https://www.dallee.com/Trak-DT-Basic-Current-Detector-limited-stock-check-before-ordering--365
I bought mine before they got so pricey..... actually they have always been a bit pricey.
They are inductive. They will detect parked trains by simply adding a high frequency carrier signal on the rails which does not effect the DC propulsion circuit.
They have relays on board which allow basic signaling with no other logic or hardware (helps justify the high cost).
Their only limitation is they will not detect very small currents like resistor wheelsets.
So all my cabooses have lights, and so will most of my passenger cars. Saves the cost of resistor wheelsets for 800 freight cars....
BigDaddyAre those bulbs in the signals? I'm of the minimal effort camp too.
Yes, they are very "vintage" brass signals.
Ed posted some great information on adding LEDs to signal heads, and I am leaning towards doing that.
gregcAn Arduino can be had for ~$10, has 11 spare pins supporting 2 signals (blkOcc and 3 LEDs) with fairly simple code, the same on each board
ATLANTIC CENTRALwhem you say "signals" are you referring to each individual "light"? or the whole 2 or 3 light assembly?
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou don't really need real "approach" aspects on a model layout.
i think i missed your point about bi-directional signals. for single track, the block detection inputs would be used in both directions. the club has a double track mainline.
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SeeYou190However... I did buy these nifty signals... And signal bridges...
I have one each of those brass NJI signal bridges, Kevin. Good, sturdy structures.
IMG_2739 by Edmund, on Flickr
NJI signal bridge by Edmund, on Flickr
SeeYou190Ed posted some great information on adding LEDs to signal heads, and I am leaning towards doing that.
If you were so inclined, you could send me a couple of those signals and I could see about converting them to LED and give you a pattern to follow for you to do the rest of them, Kevin.
PRR_Motor-lineup by Edmund, on Flickr
I really enjoy having "functioning" signals on my layout and I'm always looking for places to realistically add more. These days with cab signals and PTC many trackside signals are vanishing. In the "glory years" sometimes blocks were only a ¼ mile apart and there were many more towers and track crossings demanding interlocking.
Nearly all my signals are animated using LogicRail simulators with direction of traffic and turnout interlocking overrides implimented.
Good Luck, Ed
gregc gregc An Arduino can be had for ~$10, has 11 spare pins supporting 2 signals (blkOcc and 3 LEDs) with fairly simple code, the same on each board ATLANTIC CENTRAL whem you say "signals" are you referring to each individual "light"? or the whole 2 or 3 light assembly? a complete signal: 3 output pins for LEDs and 2 input pins for 2 possible block occupancy detection circuits ATLANTIC CENTRAL You don't really need real "approach" aspects on a model layout. the cost is possibly one extra input pin. None, if the the next block is signaled and the block detector is already being monitored and that status is shared. i think i missed your point about bi-directional signals. for single track, the block detection inputs would be used in both directions. the club has a double track mainline. 1552
gregc An Arduino can be had for ~$10, has 11 spare pins supporting 2 signals (blkOcc and 3 LEDs) with fairly simple code, the same on each board
ATLANTIC CENTRAL whem you say "signals" are you referring to each individual "light"? or the whole 2 or 3 light assembly?
a complete signal: 3 output pins for LEDs and 2 input pins for 2 possible block occupancy detection circuits
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You don't really need real "approach" aspects on a model layout.
the cost is possibly one extra input pin. None, if the the next block is signaled and the block detector is already being monitored and that status is shared.
In most cases, both tracks of double track would/should be signaled in both directions. The whole idea of double track is flexibility of operations.
I'm not challenging the flexibility of the processor for this task, just being sure I understand the I/O count.
Point is signaling can be streamlined in model form and still look very realistic and provide practical info to operators.