tsd gmpullman Thanks for clearing that up. It didn't make sense to me that voltage would be pumped back into the transmitter but the screen printing on the board labeled the terminal as +3.3V. Prior to P4 the Rolling Thunder transmitter could simply be popped out (and left out) but recent models have that second wire added. BLI just refuses to give up that smoke maker and, I presume, the reed switch/chuff sensor is necessary for the "puffing" signal to the tiny blower in the smoker. Lots of excess baggage — electronically — IMHO. Eventually ALL my Paragon decoders will be gutted and replaced with ESU, WOW or Tsunami as the case may be. There's not one single "Goldilocks" sound decoder out there. Regards, Ed Well, that's why it is more odd that you were saying that stuff stopped working when you popped it out. And I have seen that specific setup on many P3 as well, with a wire soldered to the antenna out on that board, going to the 3.3v marked connector on the tether board. Basically the engines in P4 that are setup that way, the same engines in P3 are as well. The RollingThunder board is the same as well in both P3 and P4. Now, it's not to say that sometimes their factory does not change how they wire things and what they do, as they had done that before, without BLI's knowledge about it. But I believe that all has improved/stopped once BLI put someone overthere to oversee the stuff. I would just honestly need to see one myself to see what exactly is going out since it should have no impact, being removed or not, etc. and if it truly is needed, then it's certainly not something that their engineer is aware of at all. The reed switch is actually for all chuffing related functions. Every BLI steam engine since BlueLine has a reed switch inside, smoke or no smoke in the engine. It ties back to the decoder itself because that is how they do their synchronized chuffing, since now its timed based on a fixed magnet placed in the motors flywheel. Now, I am not saying maybe somehow it could be dealt with software, but one thing I notice, when I put in say M4 into one of their older QSI engines, is that while I can enable chuffing via CV, and set it's timing, its generally fairly hard to get perfect timing, and on top of that, if you are going fast and you quickly bring the throttle down, you tend to loose chuffing at the end when its rapidly slowing down. With the chuff sensor, that is not the case. Unfortountly though, those sensors can fail, which is why when I replace them, I use a different type, a plastic type over the more fragile glass type they use. And just from the other side of the coin here, but I have also heard for years, from BLI, that people would complain about not having smoke in their engines, or wanting more smoke, thicker, "better", etc. So I guess the question is, who are the majority, or loudest "complainers". Of course perhaps they could do smoke and non smoke models of their engines, though I honestly am not sure how price would work out then. Have to keep in mind though that it's not like they make hundreds of thousands of these things, where it would be fairly easy to have many varieties. So to have different road numbers, etc. and then ones with smoke, without smoke, etc. it could actually cost them more to have more versions of engines, than to just produce smoke only for an engine, and then have the different road numbers. Same thing decoder wise, as I know some people are wanting them to sell DC only models or whatnot. But then the same thing comes up, that it may not actually save them or, the end buyers, much money at all. If they bought decoders from another manufacture, then I am sure they could save a bit of money, but since they develope their own and make their own, their cost on them in much less then, so it may not save money doing engines with different wiring, electronics, etc. for then each different road number they do in a production run. I guess I am just saying, that in the end, it's near impossible to keep everyone happy in this business as lot's of people have different needs/wants out of their engines/manufactures, and with how small overall the hobby is, I feel it would be hard pressed for any manufacture to do everything "right" by every person.
gmpullman Thanks for clearing that up. It didn't make sense to me that voltage would be pumped back into the transmitter but the screen printing on the board labeled the terminal as +3.3V. Prior to P4 the Rolling Thunder transmitter could simply be popped out (and left out) but recent models have that second wire added. BLI just refuses to give up that smoke maker and, I presume, the reed switch/chuff sensor is necessary for the "puffing" signal to the tiny blower in the smoker. Lots of excess baggage — electronically — IMHO. Eventually ALL my Paragon decoders will be gutted and replaced with ESU, WOW or Tsunami as the case may be. There's not one single "Goldilocks" sound decoder out there. Regards, Ed
Thanks for clearing that up. It didn't make sense to me that voltage would be pumped back into the transmitter but the screen printing on the board labeled the terminal as +3.3V.
Prior to P4 the Rolling Thunder transmitter could simply be popped out (and left out) but recent models have that second wire added.
BLI just refuses to give up that smoke maker and, I presume, the reed switch/chuff sensor is necessary for the "puffing" signal to the tiny blower in the smoker.
Lots of excess baggage — electronically — IMHO.
Eventually ALL my Paragon decoders will be gutted and replaced with ESU, WOW or Tsunami as the case may be. There's not one single "Goldilocks" sound decoder out there.
Regards, Ed
Well, that's why it is more odd that you were saying that stuff stopped working when you popped it out. And I have seen that specific setup on many P3 as well, with a wire soldered to the antenna out on that board, going to the 3.3v marked connector on the tether board. Basically the engines in P4 that are setup that way, the same engines in P3 are as well. The RollingThunder board is the same as well in both P3 and P4.
Now, it's not to say that sometimes their factory does not change how they wire things and what they do, as they had done that before, without BLI's knowledge about it. But I believe that all has improved/stopped once BLI put someone overthere to oversee the stuff. I would just honestly need to see one myself to see what exactly is going out since it should have no impact, being removed or not, etc. and if it truly is needed, then it's certainly not something that their engineer is aware of at all.
The reed switch is actually for all chuffing related functions. Every BLI steam engine since BlueLine has a reed switch inside, smoke or no smoke in the engine. It ties back to the decoder itself because that is how they do their synchronized chuffing, since now its timed based on a fixed magnet placed in the motors flywheel. Now, I am not saying maybe somehow it could be dealt with software, but one thing I notice, when I put in say M4 into one of their older QSI engines, is that while I can enable chuffing via CV, and set it's timing, its generally fairly hard to get perfect timing, and on top of that, if you are going fast and you quickly bring the throttle down, you tend to loose chuffing at the end when its rapidly slowing down. With the chuff sensor, that is not the case. Unfortountly though, those sensors can fail, which is why when I replace them, I use a different type, a plastic type over the more fragile glass type they use.
And just from the other side of the coin here, but I have also heard for years, from BLI, that people would complain about not having smoke in their engines, or wanting more smoke, thicker, "better", etc. So I guess the question is, who are the majority, or loudest "complainers". Of course perhaps they could do smoke and non smoke models of their engines, though I honestly am not sure how price would work out then. Have to keep in mind though that it's not like they make hundreds of thousands of these things, where it would be fairly easy to have many varieties. So to have different road numbers, etc. and then ones with smoke, without smoke, etc. it could actually cost them more to have more versions of engines, than to just produce smoke only for an engine, and then have the different road numbers. Same thing decoder wise, as I know some people are wanting them to sell DC only models or whatnot. But then the same thing comes up, that it may not actually save them or, the end buyers, much money at all. If they bought decoders from another manufacture, then I am sure they could save a bit of money, but since they develope their own and make their own, their cost on them in much less then, so it may not save money doing engines with different wiring, electronics, etc. for then each different road number they do in a production run.
I guess I am just saying, that in the end, it's near impossible to keep everyone happy in this business as lot's of people have different needs/wants out of their engines/manufactures, and with how small overall the hobby is, I feel it would be hard pressed for any manufacture to do everything "right" by every person.
Check under the dome on the big boys its a screw under the cap
Ed: How, did you remove the shell from the BLI E6 4-4-2? I just started to change the decoder in my 4-4-2 but am stopped because I am not sure how to access the engine's internal wiring. I have removed 4 screws from the underside of the 4-4-2 but do not know what to do next.
Anthony
tsdThe 3.3v on it, the factory used as just a longer antenna for rolling thunder.
gmpullman I traced the wire that is soldered to the "Rolling Thunder" transmitter antenna and it IS the +3.3V wire! Why they decided to take the 3.3 from that point is beyond my comprehension. With that add-on R-T transmitter unplugged there isn't 3.3V going to the tether harness from the decoder anymore. The wire seen here going under the board is soldered to the +3.3V pad on the tether socket
I traced the wire that is soldered to the "Rolling Thunder" transmitter antenna and it IS the +3.3V wire! Why they decided to take the 3.3 from that point is beyond my comprehension. With that add-on R-T transmitter unplugged there isn't 3.3V going to the tether harness from the decoder anymore.
The wire seen here going under the board is soldered to the +3.3V pad on the tether socket
Ed,
The 3.3v on it, the factory used as just a longer antenna for rolling thunder. That wire off the RollingThunder abosulty does not have +3.3v on it. On those engines, the smoke units have a regulator for 3.3v on it for power, so the decoder does not have to directly provide +3.3v to the engine.
Some engines do actually go out from a 3.3v pin on the decoder, infact most do. But some of the big engines, such as their BigBoy, as you have seen, do not take 3.3v from the decoder.
P.S
My source are the schematics for their electronics, pin-outs, etc. and also directly from their software/hardware developer, that designs their hardware, writes their code, etc.
Ed: I plan to use either the sensor or serial pin for my 3.3V+ supply. Both of these are free after the removal of smoke and chuff stuff. I will wire the tether from the tender accordingly. I will be using a Soundtraxx TSU 2 for a decoder.
Again, I wish I would have documented the 2-8-0 better. Here's the L1 and as I recall the +3.3 wire terminated at the board that the reed switch (chuff sensor) is mounted to.
The white plug near the gear tower shown here should have the 3.3 wire going to it:
PRR_L1-BLI-guts by Edmund, on Flickr
Is it possible that the wire wasn't adequately soldered to the pin socket and inadvertantly got disconnected?
I'll take a better look at my 2-8-0 and see if it jogs my memory.
Good Luck, Ed
Ed: I am refering to the loco. The pins are marked on the board. The pin marked 3.3V is the one that I can not find a wire for. I have taken the smoke and chuff stuff out. I only have the wirers coming from the pin board left exposed infront of the motor.
SandcountyI can not get a continuity between the 3.3V male pin and any of the wires.
Hello, Anthony
I can't quite visualise what two points you are checking for continuity. Loco or tender? I am presently "unpacking" my recent PRR E6 Atlantic and gutting it while also trying to locate a short.
This engine has been back to BLI and when returned it still shorts between the rails. BLI repair noted that they "corrected" the situation and this amounted to painting liquid "tape" on the six wires coming out of the front of the "sensor/contact" board.
Did you remove the "light/smoke" control board inside the engine? This is normally wrapped in heavy heat shrink tubing. On the E6 it was tucked under the motor.
BLI_P4_E6_light-control by Edmund, on Flickr
The wire seen here going under the board is soldered to the +3.3V pad on the tether socket.
BLI_P4_E6_right-plugs by Edmund, on Flickr
As long as BLI insists on keeping that smoke maker and the associated "chuff sensor" their wiring woes will continue. The E6 is a compact little engine and BLI has done some marvelous work in engineering the machinery. One nice recent addition is the contact pins that eliminate wiring between the boiler and engine frame:
BLI_P4_E6_contact-board by Edmund, on Flickr
The plug and gaggle of wires — I removed — is what plugs into the smoke maker. Eight wires!
BLI_P4_E6_boiler-contact by Edmund, on Flickr
They have also provided pickups on the pilot wheels, one for each rail:
BLI_P4_E6_Pilot-pickup by Edmund, on Flickr
Let me know more about your tracing of the 3.3+ wire. Don't forget that BLI uses the opposite LED wiring (same as MTH) with the cathode common and the + or anode switched by the light control board. I regret I didn't take more photos of my particular 2-8-0 installation. Sometimes I get on a roll and don't stop for a photo.
Sandcounty Ed: I have been able to trace all male pin connections on the loco to their respective wirers. I removed all the unessary stuff and only have wires remaining. I have one problem. I can not get a continuity between the 3.3V male pin and any of the wires. Any idea why this would occur. It would seem there is something in the wire that prevent current flow. I have identified left and right tracks, M+and M- , ground(-), serial and sensor. I have more wires than the 8 male pins on the connector Anthony
Ed: I have been able to trace all male pin connections on the loco to their respective wirers. I removed all the unessary stuff and only have wires remaining. I have one problem. I can not get a continuity between the 3.3V male pin and any of the wires. Any idea why this would occur. It would seem there is something in the wire that prevent current flow. I have identified left and right tracks, M+and M- , ground(-), serial and sensor. I have more wires than the 8 male pins on the connector
As the engine is apart, are you able to see the traces on the PCB board itself for that pin? You should be able to spot them and follow the trace to see what wire it goes to.
Of course always a possibility that the solder join is not great and its "broken" at the connector, so you can't tone anything out from the connector itself.
gmpullman * this plug might be where an additional "Go Pak" can be added BUT I'm not sure about that since extra caps are now part of the P4 board with "built in" stay alive. Hope that helps, Ed
* this plug might be where an additional "Go Pak" can be added BUT I'm not sure about that since extra caps are now part of the P4 board with "built in" stay alive.
Hope that helps, Ed
I can say that yes, the small plug next to the speaker with nothing plugged in, on yours, is for their GoPack. P4 has a "mini" version built into their decoder now, but the plugin has "significantly" more capacity. So I still see many people install GoPack's in their Paragon 4 anyways, even if they don't "have" to. The other small plug between the 5 pin and 2 pin speaker is new to P4 which is for additional lighting outputs.
And the wire on the RollingThunder board, I have seen that in some Paragon 3 engines as well, generally bigger ones like the BigBoy and such, and is just an additional much longer antenna.
And that is correct, in which they use the "serial" connection to their smoke unit controller board inside the engine, to control a bit of lighting inside the engine, as it allows them to use fewer wires between engine and tender.
This PRR E6 Atlantic should be the latest iteration of the Paragon board.
BLI_P4_E6_overall by Edmund, on Flickr
Transmitter still plugged in and foam in place:
BLI_P4_E6_as-found by Edmund, on Flickr
Tether plug with markings legible:
BLI_P4_E6_tether by Edmund, on Flickr
Transmitter removed. Earlier versions didn't have the additional wire soldered to the antenna. I'd have to dig deeper to see exactly where the other end is soldered:
BLI_P4_E6_xmitter by Edmund, on Flickr
The right (engineer's) side of the board. From the left (rear) Backup light + and —; gray = marker lights; red/blk = speakers; Kapton covered*; gray/black= tender wheel pickups; empty:
Left (Fireman's side) of the board. From left (front) Engine wheel pickup and motor +/—; not used; +3.3V and serial signal (lights); Chuff sensor.
BLI_P4_E6_left-plugs by Edmund, on Flickr
BLI has lots of wiring stuffed under the boiler and they use some sort of coded signal for lighting function. When stopped both lights dim and cab light on. When moving headlight in diredtion of move and cab light out. When F0 pressed four markers light, turbo sounds and headlight functions can be selected.
The P4 I reworked I had to rewire all the LEDs to make them anode common in order to use a Soundtraxx decoder. I always scrap the smoke maker, I'll never use it. On a few occasions I fit a speaker in there but without a proper crossover (no not that kind of crossover) you really couldn't hear much difference. The tender speaker always seemed prevalent. I just fill the space usually occupied by the smoke maker with added weight.
Ed: Yes, I would like any pictures you have of a Paragon 4.
SandcountyToday, I received from BLI a picture of a Paragon 4 decoder with all the outputs labled.
I must have misunderstood.
I thought you wanted the wire assignments between the engine and tender.
This is the last version of the Paragon3-G:
BLI_K4_cap by Edmund, on Flickr
I'll be opening up my P4 E6 later tonight and I can get a photo of it for you if it will help.
Ed: Thank you for helpful information. Today, I received from BLI a picture of a Paragon 4 decoder with all the outputs labled. I have spent the last 30 minutes trying to include the pic in this reply with not luck.
My 2-8-0 (was) a Paragon 3 and I recently gutted the BLI electronics and replaced it with a Tsunami2 and even managed to squeeze in a keep alive capacitor in the small PRR Lines West tender.
Usually I keep pretty good notes on the wiring harness but since I was removing the "chuff sensor" and smoke maker plus other BLI electronics I was primarily concerned with rail pickup and motor wiring, which is usually consistant on BLI engines. After that I wasn't too concerned with their somewhat unconventional wiring.
So far the only Paragon 4 engine I've gutted was the streamlined K4. When I got inside that I discovered that BLI had gone to a different wiring of the LEDs using a common cathode arrangement.
Recently I started on one of my T1s and found, surprisingly, that the PC board was pretty well marked with the component assignments. I show this as reference for you:
BLI_P3_T1 by Edmund, on Flickr
The arrangement shown is pretty typical for BLI however I have found some with the motor + and — reversed. "Usually" the 3.3V+ which would commonly represent the lighting blue wire on a typical DCC NMRA decoder is in the same spot and the "sensor" as well.
BLI has been getting more "sophisticated" with their lighting so it seems they are using that "serial" signal to trigger the headlight dimming and the cab light coming on when movement stops. Some smoke unit commands are also carried in that serial circuit as well. There is a "control board" in the boiler that decodes this signal and assigns various functions to lights and the smoke unit.
All this might not help your particular P4 2-8-0 but give you some basic guidance.
So far the only Paragon 4 I've dealt with was the streamlined K4 and, as I mentioned, I practically gutted all the BLI "extra stuff" in there.
BLI_K4_SL_Parts by Edmund, on Flickr
My recently purchased 4-4-2 E6 Atlantic has had electronic problems, has already made one trip back to Florida and still has issues. It will be next on the gutting block.
BLI 2-8-0 HO Paragon 4:Wire designation from tender to engine.
What are the wirer's designation from the tender's female plug left to right? Or looking at the male plug-in on the loco from left to right?