I recently came into possession of two Lionel locomotives. Now, these aren't antiques or anything -- they are fairly new locomotives that came sealed in original factory packaging. One is a SD70MAC and one is a Amtrak P40 or P42 (I'm not sure which, it's labeled a Genesis by Lionel). The instruction manuals (big honking novels -- I'm seriously impressed!) say they are compatible with LIONEL LEGACY control systems, TrainMaster Command Control, Bluetooth, and even respond to voice command. Very impressive! The problem is my current layout is HO with a MRC DCC system (I also have an NCE Power Cab lying around somewhere under my layout). Will these locomotives work with conventional DCC? Or do I need to buy Lionel's proprietary command system? At the moment, I have no O scale track to test them out on. I plan to buy some.
Go to the top of this page and click on the Classic Toy Trains red logo and the folks over there probably have a better idea. This forum is mostly HO and N.
Good luck,
Richard
Okay. I'll do that. I guess it won't hurt. But this is a recently made model of a modern locomotive with a bunch of high-tech features. Hardly a "classic toy train."
Although the title of the magazine is "Classic Toy Trains" they do have discussions and reviews of new products.
O Gauge Railroading magazines' forums may have more info. They cover 2 and 3 rail O gauge, scale and tinplate. They have a separate forum on DCC.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/forum-directory
Modern "high tech" 3-rail O gauge engines use a DC motor with electronics to convert the AC track power to DC for the motor. Since the motors are DC, it's apparently possible to remove the electronics (like Lionel Legacy or MTH DCS) and install DCC decoders and run the trains that way. I don't know much about that, but I would assume it would take much more power than HO DCC, so not sure if your DCC system would work or not. You'd also need decoders designed for O and more volts/amps of course.
Another option is to buy a Lionel transformer, it you don't have one. There is no danger since your O and HO track will never collide. It's a lot simpler than removing the electronics from the locomotives. The locos will also retain their value, which is not a detail when it comes to Lionel...
Simon
Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't had Lionel since I was a little tyke. Didn't Lionel use A/C for track power? Rectified through the E unit to DC for the motor? Old Lionel transformers can be found cheap enough. Why risk damage?
Pete.
wrench567Didn't Lionel use A/C for track power?
Yes, they still do.
wrench567Rectified through the E unit to DC for the motor?
Nope. E-unit is kind of a mechanical reverse unit that sorta-kinda works like a twin-coil switch machine. It cycles forward-neutral-reverse-neutral-forward. You can remove the e-unit in older Lionel engines and add a bridge rectifier if you want to run the engine on DC. Then it will reverse based on polarity.
"Modern" Lionel engines have smoother running DC motors and have electronics to modify the AC track power to DC to feed to the motor. However they can run on AC from a regular transformer.
BTW, on the old Lionel e-unit engines, you could run the engine on DC but polarity wouldn't matter, it still used the e-unit to change direction. But you CANNOT run new Lionel stuff on DC, it will destroy the electronics from what I've been told.
snjroy Another option is to buy a Lionel transformer...
Another option is to buy a Lionel transformer...
That's probably what I'll do. My layout is HO and I have no interest in converting to O scale in a big way. These locomotives are enormous and it takes all my strength just to lift one!!! But these locos were a kind'a gift, so I don't want to sell them and wash my hands of them. I have no O scale track or power, so this is completely new to me, and I'll probably set up a oval of O scale track somewhere just to watch them run. But I'm learning that O scale doesn't do DCC the way HO does it. I don't mind using the proprietary Lionel transformer (according to the manual, they do seem to use the same sort of addressing scheme that DCC uses in order to run multiple trains on the same layout at the same time, but the terminology is all different) if that's my only option, but it would be nice to be able to use conventional DCC since I'm familiar with how DCC works.
wrench567 Didn't Lionel use A/C for track power?
Didn't Lionel use A/C for track power?
According to the manual, they can run on either AC or DC. To use Bluetooth, I'd need to use DC. To use TMCC (Lionel's proprietary version of "DCC"), I need to use AC. The only thing I've ever used Bluetooth for is to connect my headphones to my MP3 player.
My grandson has a Lionel starter set. The Lionel Bluetooth app on his tablet can control the train. There is no programming so to speak except for addressing the locomotive and limiting the top speed. If a six year old can do it, I'm sure you can. Whisle and bell are already programmed and the annoying voice of " Alright Pennsy let's roll."
Think of it this way - if you buy a sound-equipped HO engine, it comes with a "dual mode" decoder. You can use it on a DC layout and it will work fine, but you can get better control and access to more options using DCC. Similarly, your Lionel engines will work fine on a traditional AC power pack with a throttle and buttons for horn and bell activiation - but you can get a lot more out of them by using TMCC or Legacy command control. You CAN remove / alter the electronics to take that all out and install a DCC system, but Lionel's systems basically do the same thing so I would leave it until you can really try it out.
Certainly if you aren't planning a big O scale layout right now, just getting an oval of Lionel Fastrack (it appears per the Lionel website both will take an O-31 curve (31" diameter) but I'd go with at least 36" diameter, since most scale three-rail freight cars (Lionel, Atlas) need an O-36 minimum curve) and a standard Lionel or MRC AC transformer will work. You probably can find a used one at a train show fairly cheap; I bought a used MRC one a few years ago at a RR flea market for I think $25.
BTW whoever gave you those must be a good pal, list price for the two totals around $1000!
Here's an update. I've been in correspondence with Lionel today over this issue and have learned that they discontinued their Legacy 990 Control System because they're coming out with a new and superior Base3 control system next year. I was able to pre-order the Base3 system, but it won't come out until 4Q 2023. So I'll have to wait a year before I can run my Lionel trains.
wjstix Think of it this way...
Think of it this way...
Yes, my whole extended family is big into model railroading, and yes, we all know how expensive O scale stuff is (especially Lionel -- Lionel seems to be the Apple of the model railroading industry -- everything is proprietary and super expensive, but high quality), lol. My main layout is HO and I only plan to use the O stuff to set up a loop of track around the Christmas tree and on my floor for the lolz from time to time.
I'm pretty sure they will run with an old Lionel transformer, which can be found used at reasonable costs. You can double-check with the Lionel staff about compatibility. Despite their good intentions, manufacturers are often late in delivering their products.
And yes, I always found quite ironic that Lionel products are sold as toy trains. Pretty much bullet-proof stuff in most cases.
BernieMy main layout is HO and I only plan to use the O stuff to set up a loop of track around the Christmas tree and on my floor for the lolz from time to time.
OK, so you're going to spend $500 and wait at least a year to buy a state-of-the-art command control system that you're only going to use for a few weeks a year running trains around the Christmas tree, when you could run them just as well now using say a Lionel CW-80 or MRC Tech II TrainPower 027 transformer, either of which you can get used on Ebay for $30. Unless you're 100% sure the engine's diesel motor noise, horn, and bell aren't enough for running around the tree, and you have to be able to access all the 'crewtalk' and other things, I'd suggest getting a transformer and oval of Lional Fastrack first and try things out before deciding you need to expensive new control system.
Lionel's website entry for the Genesis Amtrak engine says it will
http://www.lionel.com/products/amtrak-lionchief-plus-20-genesis-150-2234050/
snjroy ...I always found quite ironic that Lionel products are sold as toy trains... Simon
...I always found quite ironic that Lionel products are sold as toy trains...
Yes, I'm getting a "toy train" vibe from O scale in general and Lionel in particular. Every O scale layout I've seen so far looks like a spaghetti plate of track everywhere with "accessories" sprinkled around with no thought to prototypical operation or realistic industries. That's why I'm relegating it to special occasions, rather than constructing a serious layout with it.
wjstix OK, so you're going to spend $500...
OK, so you're going to spend $500...
$500 isn't that much to spend on a hobby, IMO (I'll just cut back buying video games and spaceships in StarCitizen for a few months, lol). I looked at the CW-80 ($150) and the MRC Tech II TrainPower 027 is out of stock everywhere I looked. Since I have two locomotives, and there's possibility of getting others in the future, I want a DCC-like Control system (I wish Lionel just used traditional DCC rather than their proprietary stuff). Maybe I'll take your suggestion and buy a used CW-80 just to run them until I get my Base3 system...
Although Lionel, MTH etc. do make toy trains, I think one of the fastest growing areas of the model railroad hobby is "Scale Third-Rail", using three-rail track to run 1:48 scale equipment. Many scale-size products from Lionel and Atlas come prepared to be converted to Kadee couplers, with many scale three-railers use rather than the oversize Lionel type couplers.
One of the best examples is the layout built by Norm Charbonneau:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOKQQicplRc
https://www.youtube.com/c/normcharbonneau
Thanks! I'll czech out those videos in a moment! As I said, my main prototypical model railroad is HO scale and that won't likely change any time soon. Therefore, I don't plan on getting into O scale in a big way, but maybe I do want to set up something a little more permanent than a Christmas tree oval. I'm still weighing my options and looking at available "railroad space." That's why I don't want to just settle for conventional transformer control. I have plenty of time to cancel that Base3 pre-order with no penalty but I'm gonna wait to see how things pan out before I commit either way. That said, I just found somone on eBay selling a brand new TMCC command base and controller for cheap (I hate buying used stuff). That satisfies my need for "DCC" control of my two locomotives, and satisfies your need for me to be frugal :-) But this discontinued stuff is rare and getting rarer, so either settle for conventional transformer control or spend the buckazoids. Yes, Lionel couplers do look oversized, but I like how they can be activated by the controller -- something DCC in HO can't do. And as you've noted, those two locomotived from Lionel together cost a pretty penny, so I don't want to alter them. I suspect they'll become collector items when I'm pushing up the daises, so hands off!
His layout looks amazing! As detailed as some of the super-detailed HO layouts I've seen. That's the first O scale layout I've seen that didn't look like a toy train display!
Rich Battista is another fellow with a superb "Scale Third-Rail" layout:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Toytrainsontracks/videos
It's a growing part of the hobby. If you look at the Atlas O scale offerings on their website, you'll see basically everything they make for 1:48 scale can be bought for two-rail or three-rail, and the three rail equipment can generally be easily converted to body-mounted Kadee couplers if you wish.
https://shop.atlasrr.com/b-the-fall-2022-atlas-o-premier-catalog.aspx
Awesome layout! Thanks, stix!