jjdamnit Hello All, What a challenge- -indeed! The color coding on the existing wiring would be a nightmare to diagnose/troubleshoot. I would completely disassemble the locomotive and upgrade the wiring to current NMRA standards, even if the final assembly is for DC.
Hello All,
What a challenge- -indeed!
The color coding on the existing wiring would be a nightmare to diagnose/troubleshoot.
I would completely disassemble the locomotive and upgrade the wiring to current NMRA standards, even if the final assembly is for DC.
Rich
Alton Junction
Respectfully, we are not wiring the space shuttle here. We are not even wiring a modern DCC locomotive with sound and ditch lights.
Worrying about NMRA color codes is a little over the top.
This is simply three wires on one side, and three wires on the other side that need to be correctly matched up - plus any lighing circuit which is likely also pretty simple.
I know a lot of technical stuff, and I also know what I don't know. When I don't know, I say I don't know, or I keep my mouth shut.
But I'm just a guy with a pickup, a gun and red tractor, who's little trains don't have any brains.
The OP asked what should have been a simple question, a legitimate question for a newby, once again muddied by missinformation?
Yes, it makes me a little testy when people make things harder than they are.
Sheldon
Sheldon, was that last post really necessary? Color coding makes a lot of sense, and that is at least one reason why the NMRA has such standards. If that loco was color coded correctly in the first place, it would be a lot easier to explain the wiring requirements now instead of that mess shown in the photo.
richhotrain jjdamnit Hello All, What a challenge- -indeed! The color coding on the existing wiring would be a nightmare to diagnose/troubleshoot. I would completely disassemble the locomotive and upgrade the wiring to current NMRA standards, even if the final assembly is for DC. This is good advice on the color coding on the wires. Follow the NMRA standards and completely rewire the locomotive. Red wire for the right side power pickups (front and rear trucks), black wire for the left side power pickups (front and rear trucks). Orange and gray for the motor wires, blue, yellow and white for the lights (front and rear). Rich
This is good advice on the color coding on the wires. Follow the NMRA standards and completely rewire the locomotive. Red wire for the right side power pickups (front and rear trucks), black wire for the left side power pickups (front and rear trucks). Orange and gray for the motor wires, blue, yellow and white for the lights (front and rear).
Why? He is not hooking it to a decoder?
So he will be connecting the red wires to the orange motor wire, and the black wires to the grey motor wire, and the blue, yellow and white wires to to the already multi colored splices of red/orange and black /grey depending on the rest of the lighting circuit (diodes, resistors, etc).
He has no circuit board, he has no decoder? - that color code does little that he can otherwise simply observe?
I rewire locos all the time after removing pesky decoders, I don't keep a stock of a dozen wire colors.....
I also rewire DC locos if I don't care for the type of lighting circuit it came with. Mostly I reuse what ever wire is there - the electrons don't care.
richhotrain Sheldon, was that last post really necessary? Color coding makes a lot of sense, and that is at least one reason why the NMRA has such standards. If that loco was color coded correctly in the first place, it would be a lot easier to explain the wiring requirements now instead of that mess shown in the photo. Rich
NMRA color coding is geared toward DCC.
If the OP wants to color code, it would make MUCH more sense to wire the whole right side an positive terminal of the motor with red, and the whole left side with black, in keeping with the forward polarity.
But again, I would not be disassembling those trucks just to change those pickup wires from black to red. That is like inventing unnecessary work for ones self.
I'm sorry, I'm off my meds right now. If one more person says you just need to turn the loco around to make it run the other way, I could be like Goerge Carlin's guy who gets a bottle of Scope in the mail box.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So he will be connecting the red wires to the orange motor wire, and the black wires to the grey motor wire, and the blue, yellow and white wires to to the already multi colored splices of red/orange and black /grey depending on the rest of the lighting circuit (diodes, resistors, etc). He has no circuit board, he has no decoder? - that color code does little that he can can otherwise simply observe? I rewire locos all the time after removing pesky decoders, I don't keep a stock of a dozen wire colors..... I also rewire DC locos if I don't care for the type of lighting circuit it came with. mostly I reuse what ever wire is there - the electrons don't care. Sheldon
He has no circuit board, he has no decoder? - that color code does little that he can can otherwise simply observe?
I also rewire DC locos if I don't care for the type of lighting circuit it came with. mostly I reuse what ever wire is there - the electrons don't care.
By the way, when you look at that awful wiring in the photo, I believe that a relative novice cannot look at it and simply observe where all that wiring goes and what function it performs?
Wo. I go away for ten minutes and all the answers are here.
I was just going to add this photo to make things easier to see...
I've read through the DC Experts' comments several times.
Kevin, you seem to be saying reverse the connections of the short red and black wires (I assume these are what is meant by "motor wires").
Sheldon, I think you're saying that I should reverse connections on the wires coming up from the trucks. (These are all heat shrunk into unions with other wires, one end connecting to the short motor wires and the other end connecting in a menage-a-trois wires with the lighting wires and some green extensions that simply continue the lines between the trucks.) Will it have the same effect either way I do it?
Someone asked about the lights. They work correctly, lighting in reverse and forward motion, otherwise off.
Here is a schematic I sketched, in case there is still any question about what we're looking at:
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Ugh. Once again I seem to have ignited a flame-war. Sorry guys. I thought this would be simple. I do hear the recommendation for correctly color-coding the wiring in locomotives, but as EVERYONE here knows, I'm sort of a permanent newbie, and I'm not looking to be a hero. For now, I just want the engine to run the direction it's supposed to, so I appreciate the simpler solution Sheldon has offered. But I don't resent anyone telling me they would bring the model up to NMRA standards. What I really want to avoid is damaging the engine.
So to review, I think I am going to switch the red and black shorties.
Again, thanks to all of you.
crossthedog Ugh. Once again I seem to have ignited a flame-war. Sorry guys. I thought this would be simple. I do hear the recommendation for correctly color-coding the wiring in locomotives, but as EVERYONE here knows, I'm sort of a permanent newbie, and I'm not looking to be a hero. For now, I just want the engine to run the direction it's supposed to, so I appreciate the simpler solution Sheldon has offered. But I don't resent anyone telling me they would bring the model up to NMRA standards. What I really want to avoid is damaging the engine. So to review, I think I am going to switch the red and black shorties. Again, thanks to all of you.
Matt, the effect is the same, yes if it is easier to swap the two motor wires, that should fix it.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL So he will be connecting the red wires to the orange motor wire, and the black wires to the grey motor wire, and the blue, yellow and white wires to to the already multi colored splices of red/orange and black /grey depending on the rest of the lighting circuit (diodes, resistors, etc). He has no circuit board, he has no decoder? - that color code does little that he can can otherwise simply observe? I rewire locos all the time after removing pesky decoders, I don't keep a stock of a dozen wire colors..... I also rewire DC locos if I don't care for the type of lighting circuit it came with. mostly I reuse what ever wire is there - the electrons don't care. Sheldon So, why not just wire a DC loco with nothing but black wire? For that matter, why not do the same on a DCC Ready loco when installing a decoder? By the way, when you look at that awful wiring in the photo, I believe that a relative novice cannot look at it and simply observe where all that wiring goes and what function it performs? Rich
So, why not just wire a DC loco with nothing but black wire? For that matter, why not do the same on a DCC Ready loco when installing a decoder?
I often do just use all the same color wire if I am starting from scratch.
You see an awful wiring job, except for the motor leads being switched, I see typical pre DCC loco wiring that served this hobby for 60-70 years?
How hard is it to see wires coming out of same side of the trucks and know they are for the wheels on that side of the loco, and that the similar wires on the other side of the loco are for the wheels on that other side of the loco?
And, there are a number of those old fashioned things called books that have these very basic wiring diagrams well documented, including the extra wires for the lights, which in this case appear to be LED's for directional lighting? Maybe some resistors hidden in some shrink wrap?
Good news bad news. What's that? You want the good news first? Okay, it took me about three minutes to reverse the soldered motor wires. I put the loco back on the track and it ran correctly, reverse and forward the same way the other locos run.
But...
The lights were now wrong. The the short hood light came on when I was moving forward (long hood forward -- yes, I know, NP ran them SHF) and the long hood light came on when I reversed. So -- and here's the bad news -- I cut the black and white wires coming from the trucks to each light, and reversed each one. That is, I made the black wire coming from the front truck go to the wire at the back light, instead of the front light as it was before. And so with each of the other three wires. Now the lights are correct: when I throttle up in forward the forward light comes on. When I throttle in reverse, the back light comes on. However, the locomotive does not move now. it wants to; it makes a little whine, but no gears are turning.
I am very discouraged. The wires were short and difficult to work with, and I couldn't get my strippers in there, so it was a job just getting bare wire to solder together, and then the electrical tape I used was very gooey, and I regretted using it at all. It's a mess. But I figured that the connections were good. I have no idea what went wrong, unless my solder joints were not clean.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL including the extra wires for the lights, which in this case appear to be LED's for directional lighting? Maybe some resistors hidden in some shrink wrap?
Hm. I wonder if the wires themselves are actually impeding the spinning of the gears. I know they were tucked up pretty high originally. I wonder if the wires got pinched between the shell and something trying to turn. I'll check that out. But I won't report back unless that was actually the cause.
cross the dog:
Looking at the pic you posted above. That engine has been seriously tinkered with inside at some point.
There's no light board -- at all.
Looks like a previous owner ripped it out and rewired by hand. Or perhaps it had a dcc decoder that was removed, and the wiring just patched together to make it usable again.
It might be possible to find the correct analog light board that will fit into this one. Then wire it up that way, with the motor wires arranged to make it go "the right way". I believe there are two vertical plastic "posts" on either end of the engine. The board snapped onto the top of these.
Someone in the forum may even have one laying around.
Okay, it's not as bad as I'd thought. I removed the shell and replaced it, making sure the wires weren't pinched. Not sure whether that did anything. The loco moves, and will go at a good clip, it just seems to take more throttle than usual to get it started. It lights up correctly, too. So my wiring seems to be correct now.
To those wondering about a board: I do believe this product originally came "DCC ready". So yeah, serious ransacking has occurred here. I'm not great with the soldering iron, otherwise I'd probably just redo all the connections. I may be imagining it, but it feels like my solder connections were not shiny enough and that's making the motor sluggish.
I dunno. Good enough for my present skill level. Case closed.
The top picture, the top chassis is a HO Yellow box Atlas RS1 with a gray Kato DC Lamp bracket (board) #707107 and one light bulb in the center and the model is made in Japan with the so called Kato drive. The bottom chassis is a HO Black box Atlas Classic RS1 ''F'' on the long hood with a green DC pcb #885120 on the parts sheet and #824-X001 on the pcb and has two light bulbs on the ends and the model is made in China.
The bottom picture, with the chassis's in the same order as above, notice the motors are switched end for end, brushes are at different ends. The bottom chassis has a''F'' on the long hood. Also notice the flywheels, both of mine have stepped down ends and the OP's are full size.
Yes you can flip the motor end for end in the chassis.
The Yellow box mainframe/chassis part #707400 are the same for the Atlas RS3 and RS11.
The Black box Classic RS3 mainframe/chassis is better then the Yellow box RS3 mainframes/chassis, being that the Black box mainframe/chassis have a metal coupler pad and the Yellow box RS3 has the couplers mounting to the plastic running board/walkway.
The mainframe/chassis for the Atlas RS1 is very different and is part #810400.
The pcb keeps the wires from making contact with the flywheels. Your flywheel looks like it has rub marks on it.
Just like real Railroading, the loco goes into the shop for repairs or upgrades, take out the DC pcb and upgrade to a Atlas DCC pcb #340 D-MD, #341 or #342 D-M4F then maybe at some point that goes out for a WOW sound decoder.
richhotrainThis is good advice on the color coding on the wires. Follow the NMRA standards and completely rewire the locomotive. Red wire for the right side power pickups (front and rear trucks), black wire for the left side power pickups (front and rear trucks). Orange and gray for the motor wires, blue, yellow and white for the lights (front and rear).
I color code everything I do.
Maybe not to NMRA RP, but I keep 12 colors of each 24 through 18 gauge wire on hand for projects. It sure makes life easier.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
All good. I ran it around with a yellow-box RS-1 and they run about the same speed, so I put them in a consist. Someday I'll get some warmer headlights, but all in all I'm happy. With your help, I managed to rewire a locomotive!
crossthedogAll good. I ran it around with a yellow-box RS-1 and they run about the same speed, so I put them in a consist.
This is so good that you got it fixed.
I wish I would have taken a closer look at your picture sooner than I did. I feel terrible for sending you in the wrong direction when the answer was right in front of me.
Happy railroading.
"What makes a loco travel in the wrong direction?"
A1: An improperly set turnout.
A2: Road Forman in the bushes with a radar gun.
A3: A washrack or RIP track.
A4: A hand written order from a Dispatcher with no sense of direction.
A5: The sight of either of our 2 oceans beyond the 'End of Track' warning sign just ahead.
A6: Natural disaster (or is this too much an obvious one?)
Good job, Matt.
SeeYou190 richhotrain This is good advice on the color coding on the wires. Follow the NMRA standards and completely rewire the locomotive. Red wire for the right side power pickups (front and rear trucks), black wire for the left side power pickups (front and rear trucks). Orange and gray for the motor wires, blue, yellow and white for the lights (front and rear). I color code everything I do. Maybe not to NMRA RP, but I keep 12 colors of each 24 through 18 gauge wire on hand for projects. It sure makes life easier. -Kevin
richhotrain This is good advice on the color coding on the wires. Follow the NMRA standards and completely rewire the locomotive. Red wire for the right side power pickups (front and rear trucks), black wire for the left side power pickups (front and rear trucks). Orange and gray for the motor wires, blue, yellow and white for the lights (front and rear).
richhotrain SeeYou190 richhotrain This is good advice on the color coding on the wires. Follow the NMRA standards and completely rewire the locomotive. Red wire for the right side power pickups (front and rear trucks), black wire for the left side power pickups (front and rear trucks). Orange and gray for the motor wires, blue, yellow and white for the lights (front and rear). I color code everything I do. Maybe not to NMRA RP, but I keep 12 colors of each 24 through 18 gauge wire on hand for projects. It sure makes life easier. -Kevin Wow, you've got me beat,Kevin. I keep 10 colors on hand (red, black, orange, gray, blue, yellow, white, green, brown and purple) in both 20 gauge and 22 gauge. In an instant, I can trace wiring without even touching it. It absolutely does make life easier. Rich
Wow, you've got me beat,Kevin. I keep 10 colors on hand (red, black, orange, gray, blue, yellow, white, green, brown and purple) in both 20 gauge and 22 gauge. In an instant, I can trace wiring without even touching it. It absolutely does make life easier.
Glad to see Matt got it figured out. Others did say the motor was likely wired backwards, but only Kevin and I gave him any real guidance on changing that.
If I was wiring DCC locos I might consider color coding important too, especially if I was modeling modern locos with ditch lights, hooking up sound speakers, etc.
But I'm not. When I go into the wiring of a loco it is to make it simpler, just like the loco in question. It is to eliminate things that interfere with good performance with my Aristo throttles. But I always look for the simplest way to rewire.
Many times I keep factory DC lighting boards, some times not. Some of those boards use large diode banks that reduce motor voltage more than necessary for my purposes. They have to go because I'm not running my trains on 18-20 volts.
Among my many previous occupations, I am an electrician and electrical control system designer. I have designed and wired houses, factories, process machinery controls, traffic lights, bottling factories, automobile assembly lines, paint factory process machinery, wastewater pumping station controls, cardboard box machines, etc, etc.
In many cases of machinery controls, wire numbers are prefered over color codes. OR, color codes are simple, like white for neutral, black for power feeds, red for all other parts of the control circuit.
And again, the OP has expressed his lack of experiance in disassembling a model loco. The last thing he needs to do is take those trucks apart to change the color of the pickup wires from the trucks.
In the recent thread about ALCO PA locos I mentioned that I have purchased several more Proto2000 PA/PB locos. Since the older versions only came with dummy B units, I will be removing the lighting from several A uint powered chassis so they can power my newly aquired B units.
Wires that don't need to be disturbed will be simply reconnected as needed, other wiring removed and saved for other projects - no matter the color.
While maybe I should not be after all these years, I am still amazed at some of the replies to this thread. Yes, this is a small soap box moment.
I thought the OP was surely clear enough in describing his problem, except for not letting us know at first his method of control.
Yet he recieved a list of "sound bite" answers that assumed all sorts of "facts not in evidence", and few that were just down right silly.
So I will appoligize for being testy last night, but it makes it harder for those with appropriate knowledge to be helpful thru a din of nonsense.
Seems I remember a person no longer part of the group who raised that din of misinformation to a new level until he crossed intollerable lines.......
So I will politely ask, if you don't have the knowedge to answer the question, or the time to cover the subject, what is the point of the "sound bite" answers?
These days I limit my time on here, I skip over a lot of stuff, maybe I need to skip even more....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Glad to see Matt got it figured out. Others did say the motor was likely wired backwards, but only Kevin and I gave him any real guidance on changing that.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Glad to see Matt got it figured out. Others did say the motor was likely wired backwards, but only Kevin and I gave him any real guidance on changing that. As far as suggestions that the motor is wired in reverse, the very first reply by Wayne raised that issue. That was followed up by similar replies by betamax, wjstix, me, and then Kevin. You had the advantage of posting after Matt had posted photos. Before that, we could only offer advice that the motor wires might be reversed. Without the photos, we had no way of knowing how the wiring was done by the previous owner. Rich
As far as suggestions that the motor is wired in reverse, the very first reply by Wayne raised that issue. That was followed up by similar replies by betamax, wjstix, me, and then Kevin. You had the advantage of posting after Matt had posted photos. Before that, we could only offer advice that the motor wires might be reversed. Without the photos, we had no way of knowing how the wiring was done by the previous owner.
And that was largely due to the fact that I did not see or have time to read the post until then.
Had I answered sooner, I would have asked Matt some questions before asumming it had a decoder, or a light board, etc, etc.
And, many of the responses were reasoned based on the info, many were not.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Had I answered sooner, I would have asked Matt some questions before asumming a it had a decoder, or a light board, etc, etc.
Had I answered sooner, I would have asked Matt some questions before asumming a it had a decoder, or a light board, etc, etc.
richhotrainWow, you've got me beat,Kevin. I keep 10 colors on hand (red, black, orange, gray, blue, yellow, white, green, brown and purple) in both 20 gauge and 22 gauge.
Having Skycraft Parts And Surplus nearby in Orlando really makes it easy to keep all these wire colors and other electrical doo-dads on hand.
The twelve colors they stock are:
White Black Brown Blue Red Orange Yellow Green Gray Purple Pink & Light Blue.
I also have all kinds of remnants from there in various stripes. Most of these wires are super flexible in silicone insulation. This is not the same supply of wire I use for wiring the layouts.
If any model railroader is ever in Orlando, they should really plan on a trip to Skycraft.
After too many times dealing with Spartan Motor Home Chassis problems, where EVERY wire is white, I will color code. If for no other reason, just my own preservation of personal sanity.
Clearly the previous owner removed the light board and installed a decoder. Before disposing the locomotive the decoder was removed and crudely hardwired. Hopefully there are LEDs in the shell with resistors. If there are bulbs you run the risk of the heat generation from the bulb melting the shell. Don't ask me how I know. I melted an RS1 she'll with a bulb when I first got into DCC using a bulb. Golden white LEDs had not yet been available and all the supposed white LEDs had that blue tint.
I checked my scrap box for an Atlas light board but to no avail. Another potential problem is the two posts on the motor not being tied together. The Atlas light board and recommended decoders tie the two plastic posts and keeps them in alignment. Flexing of the posts could accelerate brush wear and reak havock on the motor bushings from the armature moving fore and aft.
Pete.
wjstix Many real railroads ran their first generation engines long-hood forward. However I believe all Atlas Alcos (RS-1, RS-3, RS-11 etc.) come from the factory wired up with the short hood being the front. They may all use the same chassis / motor etc. so it was easier to do it that way? In any case, Atlas doesn't differentiate which railroad ran long-hood and which ones ran short-hood first, all the models are set-up short hood.
Many real railroads ran their first generation engines long-hood forward. However I believe all Atlas Alcos (RS-1, RS-3, RS-11 etc.) come from the factory wired up with the short hood being the front. They may all use the same chassis / motor etc. so it was easier to do it that way? In any case, Atlas doesn't differentiate which railroad ran long-hood and which ones ran short-hood first, all the models are set-up short hood.
Just a guess but the original owner might have reversed the wires because he wanted the long hood forward.
SeeYou190I wish I would have taken a closer look at your picture sooner than I did. I feel terrible for sending you in the wrong direction when the answer was right in front of me.
If Stix hadn't given me clues about removing the shell early on, I wouldn't even have known it came off so easily, and I might have ripped the handrail off the cab in doing it.
As for the debate about quality of comments, all I can say is I am grateful for all of them, even the ones that seem like the poster didn't read the full thread, and the ones that give encyclopaedic information, and recommendations for extra-credit "best practice" work that I'm not ready to do yet. Everyone helped in well-intended ways; no one is rubbing their hands together and saying "I'm going to derail this fool and enjoy watching him trash his new toy!"
I would much rather have to filter a bit of din than to return to my post and find only crickets. And lastly, I will say I'm extra-super-grateful that there are people here, like you Sheldon, who have such useful experience in fields that rather terrify me and are willing to share it. And Rich, I think you have been one of the many who have bent over backwards to explain simple concepts to me over the several years I've been asking for help here.
So, let the debate continue if it must. For my part, it's just thanks all around.
wrench567Clearly the previous owner removed the light board and installed a decoder. Before disposing the locomotive the decoder was removed and crudely hardwired. Hopefully there are LEDs in the shell with resistors. If there are bulbs you run the risk of the heat generation from the bulb melting the shell.
The bulbs, or LEDs, are at upper right, up inside the shell, glued to the roof. They each have a black and a white wire joining into a small black heat shrink tube just at the base of the bulb. I'd rather not melt my locomotive, having waited two years to find one. So, question for you: are you saying that the "golden white" LEDs are less likely to melt the shell? Do you have a source for those you can link to?
Also it sounds as though you're saying it would behoove me to eventually find a light board to put in there. I saw someone had posted a photo of several models with light boards in them (thank you). If anyone has a spare they're willing to part with let me know. Otherwise, I could maybe find one online but I'd need help discovering exactly what kind I'd need for this model. I'm wondering if that should be a whole new thread