Ok, where to start...
Before anything, let me state that my layout does not have power districts or short circuit protection like 12v automotive bulbs. My brother and I built it before really understanding alot about DCC.
Having said that, the Power Pro has been running fine for about 7-8 years, but recently, about a month ago, it started exhibiting peculiar behavior by shorting out randomly. I'll be running trains, about two engines, and suddenly both locos will stop and the NCE base unit's red light will flash for about 2-3 seconds indicating a short. Then, it will resume normal operation. After a few moments, it will do it again, randomly. Sometimes, it will do this three times a minute, other times it will be minutes in between shorts.
At first, I thought it was a loco's decoder going bad. So I removed every loco from the rails (and any other current drawing unit, ie, sound cars and lighted cabooses, etc), but even when not running trains, the behavior still occurs.
I removed all snubbers thinking that a resistor or cap was going bad, but his did nothing to solve the problem as well.
I've taken a multimeter and put it in Continuity mode to see if there's a short somewhere on the layout, but I don't get a tone when contacting the rails. This would indicated no short present.
Now, I have noticed that during the summer months when the humidity creeps up in my basement, strange anomalies start happening. Case in point: I have flourescent ceiling lights that sometimes won't fire up when the humidity is high. I do run a dehumidifier to aleviate some of the humidity.
Now, here's the rub...
When all is quiet in the room, I can hear a strange sound coming from the NCE base unit. It resembles the sound of a hard drive searching for files in a computer. When I first turn the unit on, I hear the sound intermittently, then it becomes more pronounced until the unit shorts. I took the cover off and placed my ear right next to where the wires come in from the track/power plug, and this is the area the sound is emanating from. Now, I know most short circuit protection circuits revolve around some form of diode arrangement. Could the reverse voltage of the diode be slowly breaking down (thus making the strange sound) until it decides to register as a short? Would a booster do anything for me?
Yes, the size of the layout probably could have used at least one power district, but according to sources, the PowerPro 5 Amp unit should be able to handle 10 locos running at once, and the most I ever have is 3. Of course, I have frog juicers running off of track power and a few flashing led circuits as well.
If anyone else has experienced this insanity, please let me know if there are any other troubleshooting measures I can take.
Thank you,
Tremmy
I also have the 5 amp Power Pro and in 15 years the only issues I had were when a lost coupler spring had made its way into a turnout, this happened twice. The shorting was intermittent but a good magnifying glass and a big magnet tend to find stray bits that somehow make their way to places they shouldn't.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Welcome Tremmy.
Your first few posts will be moderated. This will soon pass.
Without the layout hooked up does the base station still short? Are there any gaps that might have closed up? What was the last thing done to the layout? Fresh ballast? New track?
Pete.
You have done a good job describing the problem. My suggestion is to call NCE and describe that problem to them on the phone.
I also have a 5 amp Power Pro going on 19 years now, but I have never experienced such a problem.
They will likely want you to send the unit in for inspection and repair. But, before doing so, ask them if they have heard of this problem before and what the cause might be. That way, you can assess for yourself what exactly you are facing. Sometimes, they can resolve the problem on the phone.
Rich
Alton Junction
Check the area where the sounds are coming from for dust accumulation. If you find some, clean the area with a brush and vacuum cleaner. Be usre the unit is unplugged before you do that.
Dust can cause a short.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
To Wrench's point, unhook the unit from the layout and power it up. Does it short out after a time with nothing hooked to it?
Mike
In re-reading your initial post, I wonder if the fact that the flourescent ceiling lights sometimes won't fire up when the humidity is high provides a clue. Definitely something to consider.
There are a couple of articles on the NCE website that may be helpful to you.
https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201797455-flashing-status-light
https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/202575119-Ph-Pro-Power-Pro-5-amp-connections-and-status-lights
Good luck!
Do you have any sectional track you could use to make a simple circle? If so, disconnect the base station from the layout and run a loco or 2 on the small circle for a bit to see if it still shorts out.
From those NCE links that I posted, it should be informative to learn more about the red flashing lights on the command station.
It does sound kind of like a heat-related issue where the command station warms up and then the condition triggers. So the tests of just running the command station with no track, and another with just a small circle, should both be good data points.
If it doesn't occur with no track attached, then some current has to be flowing to make it happen. If it does happen with the small circle, then you know it's nothing to do with your layout and it's all on the command station.
I too have had nce power pro 5 for about 15+ years. Normally no issues. I have a 16x24 layout double track main and no power districts or circuit breakers, jusy one snubber at the end of the bus. I will add that I do not have a helix, any return loops, wyes or other reversing sections either. I run sound locos on a routine basis consisted with other locos, no voltage issues. The problems I have are with turnouts, while I generally have six axle locos Ive noticed that I have needed to run power feeds to the turnout running rails because Ive never had the need to power a frog. These seem to correct a lot of stops and starts. Check ALL your turnouts for loose parts that have come off. Even something as small as a staple or even a track nail stuck in a turnout will cause a short when the loco causes it to make contact. I use a shop vac once a week to keep those things cleaned out.
As far as the command station goes, have you manually turned up the voltage inside the unit? If so, its possible that its over powering and the voltage regulator is going out. I know nce says this is possible, I did it to mine and as a result, 3 years later, it was smoked. If you have not done that, then it could be an internal issue and just needs an upgrade, which it will have to go to nce for that as well. The flashing light on the front indicates a short, directly on the track because thats a track status light. If the light on the right is flashing, its the command station. Send it to nce, let them repair it and enjoy trains for the next 10 years or more.
By the way, if its the command station a booster will do absolutely nothing to stop the short. The command sration will ultimately just shut that down too.
Hi Batman,
I will defintely give this a try. My layout has many turnouts.
Be well!
Chris
Hi Pete,
No, when the track is not hooked up, there is no strange sound and no shorting. I'm just under the impression that a short is a short is a short. That's why I don't suspect track as causing it, but you might be right in that the track is causing something due to the summer months kicking in.
Hi Mark,
I will try this, thank you.
Hi Mike,
No, when the track isnot hooked up, it does not exhibit the bahavior, which seems to point more and more to track. It's just that to me, a short is a shot, and not something that builsd up to a short. Very perplexing but I'll have to check my track as others have suggested as well.
AlienKing,
I will give this a try tonight and see what happens. Good advice, thank you.
I will try putting a fan around the unti as well as doing the test trest idea. All good suggestions.
Hi Rich,
Sending back to NCE will definitely be the last resort if need be. Thank you for the suggestions.
Hi,
I opened the unit and checked the volatage via the suggested method by NCE, and the output reads 14.3V which I'm assuming is normal? I hear that N scale modellers run it at 10V.
Tremmy I opened the unit and checked the volatage via the suggested method by NCE, and the output reads 14.3V which I'm assuming is normal?
I opened the unit and checked the volatage via the suggested method by NCE, and the output reads 14.3V which I'm assuming is normal?
What can you tell us about the flashing light?
Which light? Control Bus or Cab Bus?
Is the flashing light slow or fast, long or short?
When the unit shorts, the red led to the left next to the control bus flases slowly, about two or three times, then the unit resets and operates normally. If I'm not mistaken, the yellow led to the right of the cab bus flickers as well.
Hi Jeff,
No, I have never adjusted the voltage. It current sitting at 14.3 volts. Tonight, I took a multimeter and hooked inline with the track feeds and measured 1.4 to 1.7 amps with 3 locos running.
It's just that to me, a physical short is something that is either shorted or it's not. Physical shorts don't just randomly happen then go away. So my instincts tell me it's some sort of buildup and then discharge in a capacitor being caused by my track work in that I have bus runs that are well over 30 feet.
Rich, what I did was read Mark Gurries site on dcc, and the info there says I should not have bus runs longer than 30 feet. Well, of course, I have a bus run of about 50 feet. Could running the power Pro in such a fashion have damaged something over time?
Tremmy Rich, what I did was read Mark Gurries site on dcc, and the info there says I should not have bus runs longer than 30 feet. Well, of course, I have a bus run of about 50 feet. Could running the power Pro in such a fashion have damaged something over time? Chris
NCE does make recommendations about the wire gauge to be used with their 5 amp systems. The manual for the 5 amp Power Pro says to make sure that your layout wiring can stand a continuous 5 Amps of current. NCE recommend a minimum of #16 feeder bus, preferably #14, and at least #22 AWG power drops from the rails to the feeder bus. I use 14 gauge solid copper wire for my buses and 22 gauge solid copper wire for my feeders.
Tremmy, I really think your next step is to hook your Power Pro up to a test oval of track instead of the layout, set a couple locomotives on it, and run it for a while. See what it does.
It could be that you have a very minor/high resistance short on your layout somewhere that isn't enough to instantly trip the unit, but as the temperature in the circuits increase as it sits there shorting out, it finally trips the unit. Perhaps you not getting a tone with your multimeter is a sensitivity or resistance issue? Just guessing here.
Tremmy Hi Rich, When the unit shorts, the red led to the left next to the control bus flases slowly, about two or three times, then the unit resets and operates normally. If I'm not mistaken, the yellow led to the right of the cab bus flickers as well. Chris
NCE says that a slow flash on the left side for the track power output is a short circuit for sure. Remove the two wires for the track power output only, leaving the input power connected. See if the status light changes to solid. If it does change to solid the box is not damaged, but you definitely have a short circuit elsewhere.
If the light does NOT change with the track unplugged, then the box is damaged and needs to be sent in for service.
The yellow light should remain solid.
Mike, I will definitely try that. In between working and general craziness that goes on, I only have an hour or two at night to troubleshoot.
Well rather than building a test loop, I realized that my brother some time ago bought a power cab which I have been using simply as a secondary controller. I did not realize it was a complete system, so I hooked it up as the directions said, replaced the fascia panel with the special panel with the red led and started operating trains with no shorting out to speak of. I did contact NCE about the Power Pro and after explaining some the the troubleshoiting steps I had been taking, they said to send it in. I guess the good thing is that I can still run trains, albeit 2 at a time while Power Pro is being looked at. The real downside is that I have to reprogram all my macros.
I realized that my brother some time ago bought a power cab which I have been using simply as a secondary controller. I did not realize it was a complete system, so I hooked it up as the directions said, replaced the fascia panel with the special panel with the red led and started operating trains with no shorting out to speak of. I did contact NCE about the Power Pro and after explaining some the the troubleshoiting steps I had been taking, they said to send it in. I guess the good thing is that I can still run trains, albeit 2 at a time while Power Pro is being looked at. The real downside is that I have to reprogram all my macros.
Hi Jeff
An update...I realized that my brother some time ago bought a power cab which I have been using simply as a secondary controller. I did not realize it was a complete system, so I hooked it up as the directions said, replaced the fascia panel with the special panel with the red led and started operating trains with no shorting out to speak of. I did contact NCE about the Power Pro and after explaining some the the troubleshoiting steps I had been taking, they said to send it in. I guess the good thing is that I can still run trains, albeit 2 at a time while Power Pro is being looked at. The real downside is that I have to reprogram all my macros.