Another recycled thread.
The beauty of the hobby is that you have the freedom to choose who you give your money to. Does my HO scale PA sound exactly like the prototype? No. Does it sound good? Yes. Being around the prototype, you not only hear the sound but you also FEEL it. You will never ever get the full effect out of these tiny speakers. When I listen to live recordings on my expensive headphones, I don't get the feeling of being at the concert. My layout will never earthquake when a pair of 2-10-0 locomotives run by pulling a long string of hoppers.
Which brand of decoder is the best? None or all. Just don't go telling everybody they should get this because of that. Some decoders are great and some are not. I still have locomotives with LS 3.5 and 100 ohm speakers. They work and to me sound decent.
It's like arguing over the best car. No right answer.
Pete.
There is a guy on TrainOrders who commented: "it's insane to me that you heavily favor recycled sounds from 2008" Is that true? I've listened to some Tsu2 EMD's and they sounded pretty good to me and similar to what I remember. That guy claims that Tsunami are not good decoder soundwise and that Loksound are way way better and belittles people who prefer Tsu2.
Personally I don't have enough experience with either to have a strong opinion. But I don't have a lot of time so I'm mostly buying engines sound equipped as much as possible and Athearns are all Tsu2 now and the rest are Loksound. The annoying thing is people say the two brands don't run well together so you loose the flexibility to mix up consists which may have either decoder.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
To put it simple for you, ESU is a very capable decoder, but requires better technical aptitude. Tsunami can do a bit less, but its a much easier decoder to program. where Tsunami preprogramms several CVs together to achieve an effect, ESU splits them 'to provide more flexibility'. That is true, but this additional flexibility comes at a cost of extra knowledge and time.
For people who want to enjoy simpler and faster programming, I'd recommend TSU. For more technical folks, ESU may be more satisfying.
riogrande5761 Is that Youtube guy Larry Puckett by any chance? He used to author DCC articles in a magazine, might be Model Railroading magazine.
Is that Youtube guy Larry Puckett by any chance? He used to author DCC articles in a magazine, might be Model Railroading magazine.
maxman Oldngrey A YouTuber whose opinions I value has said he prefers Tsunami2 for its 'feel'
Oldngrey
A YouTuber whose opinions I value has said he prefers Tsunami2 for its 'feel'
Sorry, I was trying to convey his preference for Tsunami2 in a crude summary. He tries hard to drive as prototypically as possible and finds ESU to be lacking character. He can set up a Tsumami to behave under load at the limits of stalling on a grade He doesn't use DDE as he consists with older Tsunami's that don't have that feature and the button behaves differently.
To be fair he probably hasn't tried to do the same with a v4 or v5 Loksound.
It probably doesn't matter too much to be honest. It's going to depend on what you want from the hobby. To him 'driving' is a key. To me, I am just happy to hit F9 for Drive Hold, set a notch with the throttle, and wait for the train to catch up. Maybe I am missing something! That's really what my initial post was all about.
Oldngrey A YouTuber whose opinions I value has said he prefers Tsunami2 for its 'feel'
Not sure what this means.
Tsunami 1 didn't have back EMF enabled as a default, which gave them a bad reputation.Tsunami 2 does have back EMF enabled by default and I find the speed control very good.I chose Tsunami 2 because of their "Dynamic digital Exhaust" feature that automatically increases sound volume when load increases, but lets you keep control of speed. ESU does it the opposite; speed remains constant and you control the motor sound.
I prefer the Tsunami2 approach.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
LastspikemikeBear in mind that pre 2021 ESU decoders were set up European style with much more aggressive momentum effects.
I am confused by this statement.
My first Loksound select decoder installs were done in 2014 and I don't ever recall running into "European-style" programming.
Initially there is no momentum programmed into CV 3 or 4. I have experienced the quite high momentum defaults on the TCS WOWsound decoders, though.
LastspikemikeSpeed matching those older ESU decoders to NMRA spec was difficult to impossible.
I have matched Loksound decoder-equipped locomotives with other locos with other decoders. I have no idea why you are saying it is difficult to impossible.
From ESU:
The LokSound Select can be used on conventional "analog" layouts and controlled with a DC power pack, but to benefit from all its features, it is highly recommended that DCC operation be used. The LokSound Select follows all NMRA DCC standards and recommended practices. It can be used with 14, 28, or 128 speed steps, supports two digit (7 bit addresses) as well as "4-digit" addressing. Up to 29 function keys are supported. The LokSound Select can change between DC and DCC operation at any time "on the fly". Of course, the LokSound Select supports all DCC-programming modes including Programming on the Main Track ("POM").
Emphasis mine.
Can you elaborate?
Regards, Ed
Oldngrey Original Poster here.... Thanks for all the feedback. Your experiences are all valuable to me.I notice nobody has reported that Tsunami2 has superior feel when driving a loco. A YouTuber whose opinions I value has said he prefers Tsunami2 for its 'feel' when trying to drive as realistically as possible. That could be important to me. I'd really like to maintain a consistent decoder make across the fleet though. That puts me off buying into Athearn Genesis as that means I'd be forced to replace a perfectly good Tsunami2 decoder with a Loksound v5 Direct. It's not the end of the world though.
Original Poster here....
Thanks for all the feedback. Your experiences are all valuable to me.I notice nobody has reported that Tsunami2 has superior feel when driving a loco. A YouTuber whose opinions I value has said he prefers Tsunami2 for its 'feel' when trying to drive as realistically as possible. That could be important to me.
I'd really like to maintain a consistent decoder make across the fleet though. That puts me off buying into Athearn Genesis as that means I'd be forced to replace a perfectly good Tsunami2 decoder with a Loksound v5 Direct. It's not the end of the world though.
My earliest DCC locos came with factory equipped decoders so I ended up with whatever was pre-installed. Later I started using basic non-sound plug in decoders so I used whatever fit, mostly basic Digitrax decoders. Only recently have I tried installing my own sound decoders requiring me to solder both the decoders and the speakers. I fried a couple of them by not adequately insulating my connections. Mostly I have used the ESU decoders which I am very happy with. I did a TCS WOW Sound decoder last year and learned the factory default settings require you to apply the brake separately from shutting down the throttle which is one of the dumbest ideas I have encountered in this hobby. When I just shutdown the throttle, the loco would coast at least 20 feet. It's possible to turn off this feature but for reasons I have yet to determine, it resets to the factory setting and I have to adjust it again. Currently that loco, a Genesis Mikado, had one of the wires from the tender come loose and so it requires some maintenance before I can work with it again.
I would like to challenge that U-tuber. How can he claim superior driving characteristics? Has he tried them all? How does he set up his locomotive different than mine?
My former club had a long winding 3 percent grade with pusher staging at both ends. I took 3 of my 2-10-0 steamers on the front and a pair of the same bringing up the rear of a 78 hopper coal drag. All five were different manufacturers and five different brands of decoders. Instead of consisting I used two throttles. The front three were consisted but the rear two ran with the same address. The whole job from set up to the pushers drifted back took more than an hour. I beg to differ on the superiority claim. Unless there are mechanical problems, even old cheap decoders can be tuned to run decent.
So far, as sound decoders go, I've only gotten what comes factory installed, Athearn SoundTraxx Tsunami and ScaleTrains and Walthers Loksound v 5. All of the non-sound decoders I've purchased in the past couple years are the LokPilot 5. I've got a few ST Econonmi decoder equipped Athearn diesels and one has Tsunami 1, which has weak horns and not so good motor control.
All the various options with the modern decoders make my head spin. I want my steamers to have sound but with the diesels it's optional. Even with the sound decoders, I don't need to hear every sound a real loco would make. I want to be able to ring the bell and toot the whistle or horn. I want my steamers to chuff in sync with the drivers. I'm perfectly happy with generic sound. I don't need the sounds that were unique to a specific loco because I have no idea what the various locos sounded like so why would I care if I replicate it. I've installed a number of non-sound Digitrax DH126 decoders in my diesels recently. I also still have a flip-phone. Needless to say, I don't have an insatiable appetitite for the latest and greatest tech devices and that carries over into model railroading. I'm not trying to be critical of those who want all these advanced features. They just aren't important to me and I'm glad they are not.
I standardized on ESU very early. Unless it comes with factory sound from another manufacturer I always try to use ESU. Their V5 is excellent. I prefer ESU motor control. I prefer ESU sound. I will say however, that some CV's are hard to access on ESU decoders. Things like extended lighting functions are difficult without a lokprogramer. However, if you already have the lok Programmer, you don't need to worry. If you have started with ESU, stay the course. The monetary ivestment to switch to Soundtraxx is not worth it at this point.
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.
They do, as well as NCE, ESU, Lenz, MRC, CVP, and other DCC systems.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
All I know is that all the N Scale Kato Engines I need have either ESU LokSound or TCS decoders. I am no longer buying decoders seperate of any brand to install and only buying those that come already equipped per above.
That being said, I hope these ESU and TCS decoders work with Digitrax systems
The Tsunami2's motor control can be enhanced by matching the BEMF level to your track voltage output via CV 215. I set the CV way low to value 65 to get the slowest slow speed that I can get, and adjust the midrange CV 6 and top end CV 5 higher to offset the slower lower speed settings. And set momentum CVs to at least 100.
I only have factory installed OEM sound, both T2 and Lok V5, so defaults are already set with many functions and complex programming is really not necessary. I think its a toss up as to which one sounds or performs better (after adjusting CV215 in the T2).
If I was invested in one brand and understood that one brand, I don't think there is much advantage to switching some locos to the other. JMO.
- Douglas
I tend to buy my locomotives with sound. Athearn uses Tsunami 2, "everyone else" uses ESU.
From what I hear, diesels don't MU real well between the two brands.
So:
I just now ordered a Tsunami 2 for a non-sound Genesis B unit I want to add to an Athearn ABA set. Thus they'll all have the same decoder.
And I also ordered two ESU decoders because, although they will both go into Athearns, I want to MU them with ESU equipped diesels. The existing Tsunami 1's I will pull and save for later.
I haven't done a steam install yet. I don't expect to MU/double head these, so matching manufacturers isn't important. I've heard good things about TSU WOW, and I might very well go with them. On t'other hand, I see that ESU has added TWO logging articulateds to their sound collection, and I have a cute little brass one that would be really nice with sound, so......
Ed
My very first Tsunami was a steam decoder I installed in an N&W Y-3. For its time it was an excellent decoder. This was years before the "long awaited" Tsunami diesel decoder was available. The Tsunami diesel was a big disappointment for me anyway.
Fast forward to 2022. I use a mix of roughly 50-50 Tsunami-2s and ESU Loksound 5s. I use decoder Pro for programming the Tsunamis and the Lokprogrammer for the ESUs.
My first Tsunami-2s came factory installed in a pair of Amtrak, EMD SDP40-Fs. I was pretty impressed with their sound capability, horn selection and motor control.
Yes the equalizer and reverb is a nice option that may provide just a bit of user-adjustable "tweaking" but in reality having the best speakers is a must.
I've been sold on Scale Sound Systems speakers.
The obvious big advantage to the ESU decoders is the ability to both download a new sound project and get a firmware update to boot. I haver taken advantage of this feature many times.
Where ESU falls short, in my opinion, is their choice and sound quality of the steam and electric sound projects for US locomotives.
I have been going through my roster of older Broadway engines with QSI or early Paragon decoders and replacing them with either Soundtraxx or ESU decoders. Recently I installed a Loksound 5 in a GG1. When I loaded the GG1 sound project into the decoder I couldn't help but laugh out loud when I heard what ESU was portraying as the sounds for the famous PRR "motor".
Honestly it was really bizarre. Even the Nathan A-200 horn sounded lousy. Then there was some kind of odd sound that would emit each time I moved the throttle like something from the Starship Enterprize!
Later that night I put in a Tsunami-2 for Electric locomotives and I'm pleased with that choice.
For MY particular roster and layout uses they BOTH have good points and slight defficiencies. The main criteria for choosing is how does the actual prime mover and related sound file sound to my ear. For steam and electric I'll choose Tsunami every time. Diesels I evaluate on a case-by-case basis.
I DO like the programming flexibility of the Loksound 5 over the Select. On the Select the air compressor sound was directly tied to the prime mover and I could not reduce the volume of the silly thing to a "reasonable" level.
Conversely, the Loksound 5 gets in to the territory of "too many" options, and yes, the support and explanations of their use falls way short. I do like the Soundtraxx videos that George produces. Matt Herman seems to have gone underground?
To this day I still can't figure out how to set the air "spitters" to my liking. Even on the Tsunamis the only two choices is the modern pop-pop-pop which is not applicable to an old F unit or an electronic air dryer which is similarly no good for the Psssshhh sound of a pneumatic "blowdown".
I got onboard with WOWsound early on and have since removed all of those, maybe two dozen or so. Great sounds/motor control for the most part but the programming variables were just too much of a headache for me.
Hope that helps, Ed
Unless it's factory installed already, I pick the ESU. I have the programmer (an old blue case one from the 90s.) ESU still supports it with upgrades and firmware updates. Truly remarkable for a product more than 2 decades old. The BEMF of the Loksound decoders works very well with my super magnet open frame motors with no flywheel. While I don't have a TS2 in a brass steamer, I do have some first gen Soundtraxx and early Tsunamis in plastic steamers. One good plus with having the programmer is saving all the changes to the decoder. Also changing the complete sound set. I recently retired an 0-6-0 and recycled the Loksound select V4 into a P2K SD9. Can't do that with a TS2 or a WOW. Unless I can get a different brand at a substantial discount, I'm staying with the ESU decoders.
For one, they are made in the USA.. Great support . Tsunami 2's
If you go with ESU, you will need to buy a ESU programmer if you want to work with all the options. Per your post you already have?some say motor control is better with the ESU's For me I can't tell the difference . Both very good decoders- Ford virus Chevy debate,
I've been invested in Loksound v5 and the LokProgrammer now for my entire fleet of 18 locos for over a year now.
However, there are people who regard Tsunami2 as the better decoder for realistic driving and that thought won't go away.
Without creating a trollfest, what are people's thoughts on this?I think I know all the ESU Loksound advantages and how to drive the LokProgrammer to a reasonable standard, the Uncouple Cycle trick, autotuning bemf, downloadable sound projects etc.But as for Tsunami2, what advantages are there apart from the graphic equalizer and a much friendlier website and help pages? And if you like Tsunami2, why did you choose it?
Once again, no haters please. I am trying to make not only a logical decision but an emotional one..... which one would I love more?