That is good news John. Glad to hear you got things running right again.
Mike
Well, the problem seems to be resolved.......for now. The problem with fixing something without fully understand why it got fixed is if it happens again, you can't be sure what you did before was really what fixed the problem. I was able to run the RS-1 all the way from one loop to the other, entering and exiting the loops multiple times. It appears that using the west end loop exit to flip polarity for the east end entrance took care of the problem. I even ran the RS-1 through the west end entrance which would flip the polarity opposite of what it needed to be for an east end entrance and the autoreverser was able to handle an east end entrance. Knock wood.
I might have discovered the reason my system wouldn't restart right away after shorting out. If I powered off my wireless throttles before restarting the main system, it would restart without delay. Again, not sure why this fixed the problem or if it fixed the problem. It might just be coincidental. But at least it worked this time.
This was three days of time lost on getting the layout up and running again. While working out these problems, I removed all the locos from the layout to make sure I was isolating the problem. Now I can start putting them back on a few at a time to make sure I'm not having an overload problem. Hopefully I'll have everything running in a few days.
At this late point, intermittent wheel contact might just be it. I would put a straightedge over the two gaps, backlit, and see what you see at eye level with the rails' bearing surfaces. Both sides of the tracks in case the one side doesn't allow light, but the other does show an uneven surface.
John-NYBWThat doesn't explain why it was not flipping polarity when entering the east loop but told me if the polarity was already correct, it could pass through the east end entrance. I'm wondering if maybe the track-to-wheels contact is not creating enough juice to flip the reverser but is enough for the system to sense a short and shut down. This could be due to dirty track at the gap or a feeder wire that has has come loose. Just guessing.
Water Level Route John, lets try this sequence. 1. Attempt to run an engine into the east loop at the offending location. 2. Assuming it shorts at the offending location, run an engine into (not out) the west end loop. 3. Try the east loop offending location again. 4. Assuming it shorts at the offending location, run the engine you ran into the west loop all the way through and out the west loop. 5. Try the east loop offending location again. This process should work to verify if the autoreverser is actually doing anything for the troublesome entry into the east loop. Running a train completely through the west loop could reset the autoreverser to the same as when you began depending on how everything is wired up. Running it partway would force a flip in such a scenario and we could see if it affects entering the east loop at the trouble spot.
John, lets try this sequence.
1. Attempt to run an engine into the east loop at the offending location.
2. Assuming it shorts at the offending location, run an engine into (not out) the west end loop.
3. Try the east loop offending location again.
4. Assuming it shorts at the offending location, run the engine you ran into the west loop all the way through and out the west loop.
5. Try the east loop offending location again.
This process should work to verify if the autoreverser is actually doing anything for the troublesome entry into the east loop. Running a train completely through the west loop could reset the autoreverser to the same as when you began depending on how everything is wired up. Running it partway would force a flip in such a scenario and we could see if it affects entering the east loop at the trouble spot.
I've been working on the problem right after breakfast. I had already done steps 1-3 over the weekend. Last night I got the idea to try steps 4 & 5 but by the time the football game ended last night it was little late to do the trouble shooting. I reasoned that if the autoreverser wasn't flipping polarity when I entered the east loop, I know it was flipping polarity when exiting the west loop and that should align the polarity for entering the east loop. VOILA!!! Not only did it enter the east loop without incident but it exited the east loop which means it flipped the polarity on the east loop.
That doesn't explain why it was not flipping polarity when entering the east loop but told me if the polarity was already correct, it could pass through the east end entrance. I'm wondering if maybe the track-to-wheels contact is not creating enough juice to flip the reverser but is enough for the system to sense a short and shut down. This could be due to dirty track at the gap or a feeder wire that has has come loose. Just guessing.
I was in the process of running a few more tests when another bugaboo popped up. I was trying to run the RS-1 over the entire layout from one loop to the other when a misaligned switch caused it to derail at a hard to reach spot. This shut the system down and I had to go fetch a stool to reach the location. This meant the short was in place for quite a while. This has become a recurring problem recently with my Lenz system. If I don't remove the offending loco from the track immediately following the shutdown, the system doesn't want to restart. I have to shut it down completely for at least an hour before I can start it up again. I'm not sure why this is happening but it began occurring last spring shortly before I shut it down for the summer and has been recurring sporadically since. This is probably a topic for another thread but it used to be I could rerail a loco that caused short, press the red button on the LH100 handheld throttle and resume right away. Now when I try to restart, the system alternately flashes AUS and STOP. If I press the red button the display goes blank for about 30 seconds and then resumes the alternating AUS/STOP display. The only fix seems to be to shut down for an hour or two. I haven't found anything in the manual which explains this which leads me to suspect either the LH100 throttle or the main LZ100 controller has a problem.
Water Level Route John, lets try this sequence.
Rich
Alton Junction
John-NYBW The system circuit breaker shuts it down the instant the powered wheels of the loco cross the gap when entering the reversing loop from either of the normal direction (counterclockwise) into the loop. If I enter locos into the loop from the opposite end of the loop, there is no problem. It makes no sense but that is what is happening and I have no idea why.
The system circuit breaker shuts it down the instant the powered wheels of the loco cross the gap when entering the reversing loop from either of the normal direction (counterclockwise) into the loop. If I enter locos into the loop from the opposite end of the loop, there is no problem. It makes no sense but that is what is happening and I have no idea why.
I think what you are saying is that the auto-reverser shuts it down the instant the powered wheels of the loco cross the gap when entering the reversing loop from either of the mainlines normal direction (counterclockwise) into the loop. If locos into the loop clockwise from the opposite end of the loop, there is no problem.
If I am correctly understanding what you are saying, it makes sense that the locos can enter the top of the east loop moving clockwise because the polarity of the track inside the east loop matches the polarity of the mainlines entering the top of the east loop. Is that correct? If so, the loco must be shorting as it exits the bottom of the east loop since there will be a polarity mismatch that is not being corrected by the auto-reverser. Is that correct?
That means that there has to be an issue with those gaps at the bottom of the east loop where it reconnects to the mainlines, or possibly a problem with a feeder wire inside the east loop.
BigDaddy Something has changed. it wasn't the feeders. Maybe the autoreverser died.
Something has changed. it wasn't the feeders. Maybe the autoreverser died.
The same autoreverser operates the west end loops as well and it works fine. For some reason it doesn't seem to be changing the polarity on the east end loops. Why it would work on one end and not the other is the mystery.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
selector John-NYBW ... 1. I didn't try the Hudson on the west loop. However before I tried my RS-1 on the west loop successfully, I tried it on the same track the Hudson was failing and it failed in the same location. ... 4. Haven't run the Hudson through both ends but I did with the RS-1. It entered the loop from the "wrong" end and ran clockwise around to the other end. As soon as it crossed the gap, the system shutdown. ... You have inadvertent metal contact at one of the many gaps. Rail sliver from filing, an errant track nail, slide-closed gap....something. OR, you have two wires bridging somewhere below the layout that aren't in conflict until the AR wants to shift the phase.
John-NYBW ... 1. I didn't try the Hudson on the west loop. However before I tried my RS-1 on the west loop successfully, I tried it on the same track the Hudson was failing and it failed in the same location. ... 4. Haven't run the Hudson through both ends but I did with the RS-1. It entered the loop from the "wrong" end and ran clockwise around to the other end. As soon as it crossed the gap, the system shutdown. ...
...
1. I didn't try the Hudson on the west loop. However before I tried my RS-1 on the west loop successfully, I tried it on the same track the Hudson was failing and it failed in the same location.
4. Haven't run the Hudson through both ends but I did with the RS-1. It entered the loop from the "wrong" end and ran clockwise around to the other end. As soon as it crossed the gap, the system shutdown.
You have inadvertent metal contact at one of the many gaps. Rail sliver from filing, an errant track nail, slide-closed gap....something. OR, you have two wires bridging somewhere below the layout that aren't in conflict until the AR wants to shift the phase.
At this point I can't rule anything in or out. I've checked the gaps where the problem occurs and there is no contact there. If I don't stumble on an answer soon, I intend to disconnect all the feeder wires to the loops and then reattach them one at a time to see if that tells me where the problem is.
MisterBeasley Are you looking in the right places for a problem? My first thought is that you have a bit of dangling wire in one of those terminal blocks, and it's got one end of the loop bridged to the main line so that the loop is not free to flip polarity. The other thing to wonder is if you're looking at there correct end of the loop for problems. If the engine goes into the loop successfully at the east end and shorts when it gets to the west end, the problem may be that the west end is just fine, but a bad connection at the east end causes the short later at the west end.
Are you looking in the right places for a problem? My first thought is that you have a bit of dangling wire in one of those terminal blocks, and it's got one end of the loop bridged to the main line so that the loop is not free to flip polarity.
The other thing to wonder is if you're looking at there correct end of the loop for problems. If the engine goes into the loop successfully at the east end and shorts when it gets to the west end, the problem may be that the west end is just fine, but a bad connection at the east end causes the short later at the west end.
I have no idea what the right place is. It's all guess work at this point. What is happening makes no sense. I made no changes to the wiring or the track work and this problem came out of nowhere but it is persistent. It happens every time I try to enter my east end staging loops and it happens on both tracks that enter these loops. It happens as soon as a loco crosses the gaps on the entry side yet I can cross the gaps at the other end of the loops in either direction. The system works fine on the west end loops which operate off the same autoreverser.
John-NYBW The system circuit breaker shuts it down the instant the powered wheels of the loco cross the gap when entering the reversing loop from either of the normal direction (counterclockwise) into the loop. If I enter locos into the loop from the opposite end of the loop, there is no problem.
The system circuit breaker shuts it down the instant the powered wheels of the loco cross the gap when entering the reversing loop from either of the normal direction (counterclockwise) into the loop. If I enter locos into the loop from the opposite end of the loop, there is no problem.
"when entering the reversing loop from either of the normal direction (counterclockwise) into the loop"? If you are entering the east loop counterclockwise, wouldn't that be just from bottom? How can it be "either of the normal direction"?
This gets more confusing by the minute.
Once again, where is the reversing section on the east loop? Is there a crossover between the inner and outer mainline?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I'm at the point where I am ready to disconnect all the feeders and rewire them one at a time to see if that is tells me anything. It's a shot in the dark but I am out of ideas.
Water Level Route John-NYBW I tried my RS-1 on the west loop successfully, I tried it on the same track the Hudson was failing and it failed in the same location. 2. I think I've run this Hudson through the loop recently. Okay. So that eliminates something odd going on with a locomotive. Before you signed off spending time on the layout last spring, were you doing any work on track or wiring at this end of the layout? It sounds like either that entrance of the loop was inadvertantly wired to the main line feed, but the feeds were reversed. OR, the stretch of main that enters that leg of the loop was wired to the loop, but with feeds reversed. Either would allow the layout to run until an engine tries to cross that gap. Any chance either of these scenarios happened?
John-NYBW I tried my RS-1 on the west loop successfully, I tried it on the same track the Hudson was failing and it failed in the same location. 2. I think I've run this Hudson through the loop recently.
Okay. So that eliminates something odd going on with a locomotive.
Before you signed off spending time on the layout last spring, were you doing any work on track or wiring at this end of the layout? It sounds like either that entrance of the loop was inadvertantly wired to the main line feed, but the feeds were reversed. OR, the stretch of main that enters that leg of the loop was wired to the loop, but with feeds reversed. Either would allow the layout to run until an engine tries to cross that gap. Any chance either of these scenarios happened?
There have been no changes to the east loop wiring for several years. I think the last change I made was to add feeders. I was very carefull to get the feeders attached to the correct bus. Had I made an error, it would have been apparent right from the start. Every year when I resume, track cleaning is a major undertaking but I wouldn't think dirty track would be causing this problem.
As I said in another post, this problem just popped up within the last few days. If there was an issue with the wiring, I would think it would have happened before now.
Lastspikemike Yes, you have that right. Your description of the fundamental difference between operating a reversing loop in DC as compared to DCC. You can operate a DCC reversing loop in the same way as you describe a DC system. You can operate a reversing loop in DC by stopping the train and reversing polarity with the train stopped. However, most operators set up DC and DCC to run the way you describe. Also, there are descriptions out there which say the gaps in the rails should be staggered and others which say they should be at the same spot. Both rails must be gapped. For loops within loops each loop which may reverse train direction would need to have its own two sets of gaps. Loops within loops that cannot reverse train direction are basically a type of passing siding and are controlled by the set of gaps at the point where the in track meets the out track again.
Yes, you have that right. Your description of the fundamental difference between operating a reversing loop in DC as compared to DCC.
You can operate a DCC reversing loop in the same way as you describe a DC system.
You can operate a reversing loop in DC by stopping the train and reversing polarity with the train stopped.
However, most operators set up DC and DCC to run the way you describe.
Also, there are descriptions out there which say the gaps in the rails should be staggered and others which say they should be at the same spot.
Both rails must be gapped.
For loops within loops each loop which may reverse train direction would need to have its own two sets of gaps. Loops within loops that cannot reverse train direction are basically a type of passing siding and are controlled by the set of gaps at the point where the in track meets the out track again.
I have four sets of gaps, two inbound and two out bound. The inner loop divides just past the gaps creating a third loop but all that trackage is isolated electrically from the main.
This is a problem that just popped up within the last few days. I have been running the layout for about six weeks without a problem on the reversing sections. In fact one of the first things I did was run the track cleaning car around three tracks of the east loop. When I did, the loco would pass through both gaps of the reverse section on each pass, going both clockwise and counterclockwise around the loops. I've tried looking at the tracks on the east loop but much of it is hidden and accessible through liftouts so it's hard getting a close look at every inch of track. As far as I can tell there is nothing on the tracks which would cause a short. I did learn, not to my surprise, that mice have made that area a playground. Droppings, empty shells, etc. I don't think any of that would create a short. It would effect loco performance if it dirtied up the track, but I wouldn't think it could be causing this problem which remains a mystery.
I'll be watching football for most of the rest of the day so I won't be getting back to this until tomorrow most likely.
John-NYBW If found this on another website and don't know if it addresses my problem or not.
If found this on another website and don't know if it addresses my problem or not.
John-NYBWI tried my RS-1 on the west loop successfully, I tried it on the same track the Hudson was failing and it failed in the same location. 2. I think I've run this Hudson through the loop recently.
John-NYBW I don't have a means of drawing the track plan.
I don't have a means of drawing the track plan.
[quote on]
I had some problems with an AR1. Perhaps you're having the same?
I believe the issue is (and I'm guessing here but it seems to match my experience) that the AR1 is only looking on one rail for the short circuit current that means it should swap polarity.
IF this is a correct assumption then there are two things that can cause troubles:
Assuming this is the issue, your engine is happily buzzing or chuffing along when it comes to the auto-reverse section. If the gaps aren't opposite each other (or within 1/8" or so) the loco wheels bridge the reverse block gaps on one rail.
If the auto-reverse polarity is backward this causes a short circuit.
If this isn't the rail on which the AR1 is looking for the sudden surge in current that tells it there is a short circuit, the AR1 doesn't flip the polarity, the short circuit is detected by the booster (or an electronic block circuit breaker ) and power gets shut off leaving the loco sitting in the "bad" spot.
If this is the case, running the engine the other direction should work fine.
If there's anyone here who *knows* how an AR1 works internal who wants to correct me on this, please do so. As I said earlier, this is a "theory", not fact based on knowledge AR1 internal design.
Speaking of electronic circuit breakers (or current limiting devices such as an 1156 tail light bulb in series with the track power), there's another possible problem...
Most electronic track power circuit breakers can detect a short and shut off track power very quickly. If you have such a circuit breaker, check what the short detected to power shutdown delay is. If its less than 20 milliseconds (or whatever the time needed by the AR1 to detect a short and reverse polarity using a electro-magnetic relay) the AR1 won't get a chance to reverse polarity and "cure" the short before track power goes away.
Try configuring your breaker to take more time to "detect" the short and turn off power. Or switch to an electronic auto reverser (a PSX-AR has lighting quick polarity reversing actions, iirc around 2 milliseconds).
If you have no external circuit breakers, can your booster be configured to take more time to shut down when a short is detected, giving the AR1 more time to do its job.
If you're using 1156 tail light bulbs in series with the track, most of the time there shouldn't be an issue because it takes so long for their filament to heat up and limit the current. But if the filaments are already starting to glow slightly during normal operation, it could be a problem.
Of course, if you have engines (or any car with multi-wheel electrical pickup) bridging both ends of the reversing section at the same time, then that's probably your problem.
I hope this was useful and good luck on hunting down your problem.
Charlie
Superintendent of nearly everything
[quote off]
I don't think the misaligned gaps are the problem because I have the same problem with locos entering the loop on the outer track and those gaps are even with each other. If that were the problem, it seems to me it would have cropped up long before now. I'm going to try reversing the polarity to the auto reverser as suggested to see if that makes a difference. Right now the dogs are begging me to take them for their morning walk so that takes priority.
I have a Lenz system.
I believe I bought the autoreverser from CVP Product but I'm not positive. I see no brand name on the board.
John-NYBW It's a double track main but just before it enters the loop it expands to four tracks as part of a large passenger station. That gives me two tracks going into the loop and two tracks coming out. The inner track divides into two tracks inside the reversing section creating a third track in the loop while the outer track remains isolated all the way around to the loop exit.
It's a double track main but just before it enters the loop it expands to four tracks as part of a large passenger station. That gives me two tracks going into the loop and two tracks coming out. The inner track divides into two tracks inside the reversing section creating a third track in the loop while the outer track remains isolated all the way around to the loop exit.
John-NYBW It's a double track main but just before it enters the loop it expands to four tracks as part of a large passenger station. That gives me two tracks going into the loop and two tracks coming out. The inner track divides into two tracks inside the reversing section creating a third track in the loop while the outer track remains isolated all the way around to the loop exit. I have since discovered that the outer loop track is having the same problem with the autoreverser failing to work when a loco enters the loop so that tells me the issue isn't with the track. For some inexplicable reason, the autoreverser doesn't want to work on my east end loops.
It's a double track main but just before it enters the loop it expands to four tracks as part of a large passenger station. That gives me two tracks going into the loop and two tracks coming out. The inner track divides into two tracks inside the reversing section creating a third track in the loop while the outer track remains isolated all the way around to the loop exit. I have since discovered that the outer loop track is having the same problem with the autoreverser failing to work when a loco enters the loop so that tells me the issue isn't with the track. For some inexplicable reason, the autoreverser doesn't want to work on my east end loops.
1. Which DCC system are you using?
2. Brand of autoreverser?
3. Everything worked going into the summer and then you return to the layout in the Fall and this problem occurs, but only on the east loop. No changes to the wiring or track work anywhere on the layout?
richhotrain John-NYBW I did notice a curious thing. The gaps are slightly offset. I would estimate about 3/16 of an inch. If this was a problem, I think it would have been an issue before now. I might try replacing this section and get the gaps aligned just to see if that makes a difference. While I laways place the gaps exactly across from one another on the two rails, I doubt that a 3/16" stagger could be the problem. I was wondering about the Hudson, but you indicate that the RS-1 had the same problem crossing those same gaps. Do we have a copy of your track plan? Is it a single or double mainline? Rich
John-NYBW I did notice a curious thing. The gaps are slightly offset. I would estimate about 3/16 of an inch. If this was a problem, I think it would have been an issue before now. I might try replacing this section and get the gaps aligned just to see if that makes a difference.
I did notice a curious thing. The gaps are slightly offset. I would estimate about 3/16 of an inch. If this was a problem, I think it would have been an issue before now. I might try replacing this section and get the gaps aligned just to see if that makes a difference.
While I laways place the gaps exactly across from one another on the two rails, I doubt that a 3/16" stagger could be the problem.
I was wondering about the Hudson, but you indicate that the RS-1 had the same problem crossing those same gaps.
Do we have a copy of your track plan? Is it a single or double mainline?
richhotrain When I started reading your post, the mention of 12 years of flawless performance and then a failure when returning to the layout in October makes me wonder if a gap has closed over the summer. Humidity? Whatever. Put on your Optivisor if you have one and examine the gaps to be sure that they have remained open. Rich
When I started reading your post, the mention of 12 years of flawless performance and then a failure when returning to the layout in October makes me wonder if a gap has closed over the summer. Humidity? Whatever. Put on your Optivisor if you have one and examine the gaps to be sure that they have remained open.
I took the razor saw and it easily slipped between the ends of the rails. I did notice a curious thing. The gaps are slightly offset. I would estimate about 3/16 of an inch. If this was a problem, I think it would have been an issue before now. I might try replacing this section and get the gaps aligned just to see if that makes a difference.
Water Level Route John, this sounds frustrating. A few questions. 1. Did you try the Hudson on the west loop? 2. Is this a first run for the Hudson through the east loop? 3. Is there a piece of equipment bridging the gaps at the other entrance/exit to the east loop? 4. Does the Hudson do this taking either path into the east loop? 5. Did you try other trains on this exact path as well in your troubleshooting? 6. Have you tried cleaning the wheels & tracks? I had a similar situation with one particular locomotive and that solved it. Other trains would run through the reversing section just fine, but this one locomotive suddenly wouldn't anymore. The system would see a short and shut down. It ran fine around the rest of the layout. Sounds frighteningly familiar to your situation.
John, this sounds frustrating. A few questions. 1. Did you try the Hudson on the west loop? 2. Is this a first run for the Hudson through the east loop? 3. Is there a piece of equipment bridging the gaps at the other entrance/exit to the east loop? 4. Does the Hudson do this taking either path into the east loop? 5. Did you try other trains on this exact path as well in your troubleshooting? 6. Have you tried cleaning the wheels & tracks? I had a similar situation with one particular locomotive and that solved it. Other trains would run through the reversing section just fine, but this one locomotive suddenly wouldn't anymore. The system would see a short and shut down. It ran fine around the rest of the layout. Sounds frighteningly familiar to your situation.
2. I think I've run this Hudson through the loop recently.
3. That is the first thing I checked. Once in a while I've had a loco over run the gap between the loop and the main track. All clear this time.
5. I've only tried the two locos, the Hudson and the RS-1. Both locos had the same problem. When they hit the normal entrance gap on east loop, the system shut down. There are two tracks that enter the dogbone loop and it shutdown on both of them. The inside track divides in two to create the third loop but that turnout is on the loop side of the gap.
6. I've cleaned the track before this problem popped up but I'll give it another cleaning to see if it makes a difference.
Just so I make sure I understand how this works, I think it works differently from reversing tracks on a DC layout. If I remember, with a DC layout, the polarity of the loop must match that of the main track as the train enters the reversing section. Once the train is inside the reversing section, you reverse the polarity of the main track so it can receive the train with reversed polarity as the train goes around the loop or comes out of the wye.
With DCC, it seems to me the autoreverser instantly reverses the polarity of the reversing section to match the polarity of the main track regardless if the train is entering or exiting the reversing section. Do I have that right?