LastspikemikeUsing only two or at most three digit addresses is obviously superior to using four. However, from "discussions" in another thread it is obviously not obvious to many users of North American designed DCC systems. That is why I take the time to point out that use of four digit addressing is not practically useful. It's difficult to encode and harder to remember than two digit addressing.
However, from "discussions" in another thread it is obviously not obvious to many users of North American designed DCC systems. That is why I take the time to point out that use of four digit addressing is not practically useful. It's difficult to encode and harder to remember than two digit addressing.
Well, there you have it! This hijacked thread has finally reached its conclusion, as our resident expert on DCC has now so proved that 2-digit addressing is "superior" to 4-digit addressing because its simpler to encode and easier to remember.
I don't know about the rest of you but I must haste to readdress my entire roster of nearly 70 locomotives with this new breakthrough in knowledge because I had the ridiculous notion that the 4-digit number already painted on the side of my locomotive's cab was the easiest & most straightforward way to identify it on my DCC throttle. What was I thinking???
CSX Robert Lastspikemike It's difficult to encode and harder to remember than two digit addressing. So using the last two digits and some method of resolving conflicts is somehow easier than just using all four digits? Whatever.
Lastspikemike It's difficult to encode and harder to remember than two digit addressing.
So using the last two digits and some method of resolving conflicts is somehow easier than just using all four digits? Whatever.
Yep, that pretty much sums it up. And, since John has decided to use another decoder to remedy the issue with the originaly installed decoder, this thread is now officially done.
Congratulations, John. This is the 2nd thread of yours locked because of the same poster in as many weeks. I think he's taken a real shining to you...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Lastspikemike Continuing to do things the same old way without understanding there may be a better way is indeed head banging. I can't help noticing how often this effect shows up here. If a decoder won't take a four digit address or you find it complicated to enter one then the locomotive so equipped is useless to you if you refuse to consider just using a two digit address
Continuing to do things the same old way without understanding there may be a better way is indeed head banging.
I can't help noticing how often this effect shows up here.
If a decoder won't take a four digit address or you find it complicated to enter one then the locomotive so equipped is useless to you if you refuse to consider just using a two digit address
What you have explained is a different way. I wouldn't say it is better. If it works for you, that's wonderful, but I wouldn't say that should be a standard for all of us to use. I'm guessing most of us like the ability to create 3 and 4 digit addresses that sync to the road number. I already have one exception on my layout. I bought a P1K ABBA set of F3s. They were numbered 714A/B/C/D with A and D being the A units. I wanted to split them up into two AB sets but I can't put a letter in the address. The solution was give the 714A/B set the address 7141 and the 714D/C set address 7142. That's easy enough to remember because it is my only exception. Having more exceptions is an unnecessary complication as far as I'm concerned.
The locomotive is not useless to me as-is. I can run it with the default address of 3 and remember it runs backwards unless I want to go to the trouble of rewiring it. It has other issues besides the addressing which tell me I should simply replace the decoder with better functionality. I could put in a basic Digitrax DH126 for about $25 and I know I can adjust addressing, momentum, direction, etc. as I see fit. I've already used that decoder in several units on my roster for which I decided didn't require sound. It will be a simple swap since the wires have the same color coding as the MRC decoder.
LastspikemikeBy Jove I think you've got it.
Yep I've got it. Surely nobody could actually believe that so you really must just be trolling.
LastspikemikeThe odds of owning two locomotives with identical last two digits is in reality quite small and easily dealt with.
I currently have less than 50 lcoo decodered and here are some of my duplicate last two digits:
7845, 7545
11, 5811
8613, 1213, 713
241, 4141
801, 1001
2003, 8703 (which, of course, would also conflict any new unprogrammed loco)
These are "easily dealt with" by usnig a 4 digit address.
LastspikemikeContinuing to do things the same old way without understanding there may be a better way is indeed head banging.
The old way only allowed an address up to 127. Then they introduced a better way that allowed "4-digit" addresses, but you don't consider it "practically useful."
Silly me, and everybody who ever built a DCC layout I have helped operate.
I guess not using the locomotive number for the DCC address is a better idea... NOT. If you want to make things confusing... well maybe.
Is there a profession that benefits from things being confusing so they need to be argued in front of an arbitrator... oh yeah, there is.
Head banging on a Saturday morning.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
CSX Robertwe just disagree with your conclusion that 4 digit addresses are "not practically useful."
Nothing like banging your head against a wall. I think we can declare this thread has been SPIKED!
John-NYBWWhat led me to believe this was a factory decoder is that there is a green board between the decoder and the electrical contacts that indicates where each color wire should be attached. Maybe this came with the decoder but it is made to fit over the electrical contacts on this particular loco. I'm guessing the board serves to insulate as well as direct the wiring.
No the greenboard/lightboard came with the engine, not the decoder. If you scroll down in the link to the 2001 review, you can see it in one of the pictures. Originally, lightboards were used to create 'constant lighting' and to have the headlights reverse so only the one in the direction of travel was on. Later, additions were made to make it easier to convert to DCC. Some added a receptacle where a decoder could be plugged in, but some just indicated where the wires from the decoder harness had to be soldered.
https://www.internetmodeler.com/2001/january/railroad/mrc_f7a_interior.jpg
So it does seem that the decoder was added by someone, and not installed at the factory. The decoder could have been made by any of several manufacturers, so MRC-specific replies may not work. Until you know the make and model of the decoder, you/we are just shooting in the dark.
If you can read CVs one way or another, and can read CV8, it should give you a number that will at least tell you who the manufacturer is. Those number codes are assigned by the NMRA:
https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/appendix_a_s-9_2_2_5.pdf
LastspikemikeYou cannot run 127 locomotives at the same time.
Actually, some people can. That's why Digitrax has expanded their slots in their latest systems from 120 to 400.
Lastspikemike clearly the point I am making is being missed entirely.
We see your point - you can't run more than 127 locos at a time so you don't need more than 127 addresses - we just disagree with your conclusion that 4 digit addresses are "not practically useful." If you have 200 locos and only 127 addresses then you have to have duplicates. If you have duplicates you cannot run them independently at the same time without reprogramming one. In that case, having more than 127 addresses is clearly useful, at least to most DCC users. Even with fewer than 127 locos, you still have to remember the address. If I have loco 1234, is it's address 12, or 34, or 123? I would have to have a system to come up with addresses, and if that system produces duplicates I have to remember the exceptions. Again, just using the road number as the address is clearly useful to most DCC users.
John-NYBWI want to have my loco addresses match the road number because that makes it simple when you have lots of locos on your layout. You don't have to remember what the address is because it is on the loco.
Rich
Alton Junction
Lastspikemike Did you try programming on the main? If it's an old enough decoder I don't think CV29 will usefully accept a value much above 6 or 7. I found this: https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/sr201402_dcc.pdf CV125 set to value 1 should reset the MRC decoder. I'm not sure where I got CV127 but given my difficulty remembering newly memorized numbers for more than a few seconds it's likely I typed the wrong CV number earlier. Not that I think this decoder isn't already in factory default mode. Low coupler height can sometimes be corrected with an undershank coupler. As for the issue of the utility of four digit addresses, well, clearly the point I am making is being missed entirely. You cannot run 127 locomotives at the same time. Therefore, it is not practically useful to have the capability to address 127 or 16,000 locomotives. These capabilities are an artifact of two digit and four digit address systems which are based on binary computer switching. Single digit addressing would likely be sufficient for many model railroaders. Once you go to 64 you might as well go to 128 (minus 1 of course) .... My point was you only need to keep track of the duplicates, if any. If you are reasonably careful you could ensure that you would never need to actually remember that you have two locomotives with the same address and if by chance you put them both on your layout and powered the tracks they were on at the same time (no power off track sections), well you get the picture. Or you could buy a DCC system that allows you to name your locomotives and recall them by that name using either numbers or alphabet. Then the DCC address doesn't matter. Even better would be a DCC system that also tells you the DCC address whenever you access that locomotive by its logical name you chose to use. Good news, there is such a system available for purchase in North America right now. Bad news only one manufacturer has got that far. TCS where are you with your new system?
Did you try programming on the main?
If it's an old enough decoder I don't think CV29 will usefully accept a value much above 6 or 7.
I found this:
https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/sr201402_dcc.pdf
CV125 set to value 1 should reset the MRC decoder. I'm not sure where I got CV127 but given my difficulty remembering newly memorized numbers for more than a few seconds it's likely I typed the wrong CV number earlier.
Not that I think this decoder isn't already in factory default mode.
Low coupler height can sometimes be corrected with an undershank coupler.
As for the issue of the utility of four digit addresses, well, clearly the point I am making is being missed entirely.
You cannot run 127 locomotives at the same time. Therefore, it is not practically useful to have the capability to address 127 or 16,000 locomotives. These capabilities are an artifact of two digit and four digit address systems which are based on binary computer switching. Single digit addressing would likely be sufficient for many model railroaders. Once you go to 64 you might as well go to 128 (minus 1 of course) ....
My point was you only need to keep track of the duplicates, if any. If you are reasonably careful you could ensure that you would never need to actually remember that you have two locomotives with the same address and if by chance you put them both on your layout and powered the tracks they were on at the same time (no power off track sections), well you get the picture.
Or you could buy a DCC system that allows you to name your locomotives and recall them by that name using either numbers or alphabet. Then the DCC address doesn't matter. Even better would be a DCC system that also tells you the DCC address whenever you access that locomotive by its logical name you chose to use.
Good news, there is such a system available for purchase in North America right now. Bad news only one manufacturer has got that far. TCS where are you with your new system?
You're missing my points. I want to have my loco addresses match the road number because that makes it simple when you have lots of locos on your layout. You don't have to remember what the address is because it is on the loco.
I have no desire to reset the decoder to factory defaults. The problem is the decoder is stuck on factory defaults. The only change it accepted was to when I increased the deceleration CV. Everything else I did had no effect. And yes, I did program on the main with no effect.
Programming Reset for MRC Sound Decoders ....
Some of the earlier decoders had no total reset CV.
Later models do, set CV #125 to a value of 1.
Otherwise it is a CV by CV reset for older models.
cv1=3
cv2=0
cv3=0
cv4=0
cv5=0
cv17=0
cv18=0
cv19=0
cv29=2
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Lastspikemike Messing around with CV29 and trying to activate four digit addressing by adding 32 to the existing value (which you may not be able to read, btw) is likely to prove frustrating and to no purpose really. Two digit addresses allow 99 separate locomotives to be run at the same time without conflict. Of course you run out of power long before you run out of addresses. It is odd that four digit addresses are seen as so useful when really they're not at all necessary. It's quite feasible to run a fleet of locomotives with only a few addresses if you can remember them.
Messing around with CV29 and trying to activate four digit addressing by adding 32 to the existing value (which you may not be able to read, btw) is likely to prove frustrating and to no purpose really. Two digit addresses allow 99 separate locomotives to be run at the same time without conflict. Of course you run out of power long before you run out of addresses. It is odd that four digit addresses are seen as so useful when really they're not at all necessary. It's quite feasible to run a fleet of locomotives with only a few addresses if you can remember them.
The obvious advantage of using 4 digit addresses is you can sync your address to the road number. Just using the last two digits, I know of at least two on my roster with the same last two digits.
Thats why I suggest you try entering 6 into CV29 and then trying to enter a two digit address into CV1. If that works and the locomotive operates 'forwards" (electric motors don't run forwards or backwards of course) from your perspective then you have succeeded in making your locomotive useful.
The locomotive is useful as is. I can use the default address of 03 and remember that the loco runs in reverse. What I can't do is change the default settings to improve performance. It's a garbage decoder and it's only a matter of time before I replace it. I was hoping that wouldn't be necessary but now I see that it is.
selector Try a resistor, even temporarily placed. I think 700 ohms ought to be enough.
Try a resistor, even temporarily placed. I think 700 ohms ought to be enough.
I believe this will help.
I used a 1000 ohm, 1/4 watt resistor across the program track for recalcitrant decoders. Try that and see if you can get it to program.
Failing that, replace. I wouldn't put too much effort into an old MRC decoder.
Gary
I said in an earlier post that some early decoders were very limited in their programming. Early Lenz, MRC, and I believe Wangro and others that have long been gone decoders could not program 4 digit addresses, 28/128 speed steps, DC disable and more. Very rudimentary to today's standard. Even lighting was on or off. No flashing ditch lights, beacons, LED settings or firebox flicker. Most were made long before the NMRA decoder standards. Even the color code for wiring was proprietary to each manufacturer.
Peter.
Lastspikemike Two digit addresses allow 99 separate locomotives to be run at the same time without conflict. Of course you run out of power long before you run out of addresses. It is odd that four digit addresses are seen as so useful when really they're not at all necessary. It's quite feasible to run a fleet of locomotives with only a few addresses if you can remember them.
"4-digit" addresses are useful because:
John-NYBW The problem is it seems to be stuck at the factory defaults.
The problem is it seems to be stuck at the factory defaults.
Have you tried to reset to factory default, CV125=1, as Spike suggested?
richhotrain John-NYBW For this loco, I'm going to set CV29 to 50, which gives me normal direction, 28/128 speed step control, analog mode off, speed table enabled, and four digit addressing. If it turns out its been wired to run in reverse, I'll just set CV29 to 51 and flip it back to forward running. If CV29=50 with the loco facing forward, but it runs in reverse, then change to CV29=51. That will make the loco run forward, the direction that it is already facing. Rich
John-NYBW For this loco, I'm going to set CV29 to 50, which gives me normal direction, 28/128 speed step control, analog mode off, speed table enabled, and four digit addressing. If it turns out its been wired to run in reverse, I'll just set CV29 to 51 and flip it back to forward running.
For this loco, I'm going to set CV29 to 50, which gives me normal direction, 28/128 speed step control, analog mode off, speed table enabled, and four digit addressing. If it turns out its been wired to run in reverse, I'll just set CV29 to 51 and flip it back to forward running.
If CV29=50 with the loco facing forward, but it runs in reverse, then change to CV29=51. That will make the loco run forward, the direction that it is already facing.
Already tried that. Didn't take. See my post above.
I tried adjusting the various CVs with no luck at all. The only one that seemed to take was the CV4. I got a gradual decelaration. It seemed to ignore any change I made to CV3. I'm guessing this decoder is even older than the online manual I found for an MRC decoder. It wouldn't even accept any entry for CV18 which tells me it doesn't like extended addresses. I set CV29 first to 50 and then to 51 and it didn't change the direction of the loco. I also discovered when running it that the rear coupler was low and I'm not sure how I can adjust that. In short, this loco will have limited usefulness until I put a new decoder in it.
selector Somewhere, Sheldon is reading this and shaking his head.
Somewhere, Sheldon is reading this and shaking his head.
The one time that I encountered this was on a loco that I bought new with the orange and gray wires reversed. I flipped the two wires.
Looking at how the calculator adjusts the CV29 value, it is clear to various functions are controlled by individual bits withing the bytes. The direction bit is the low order bit, 0 for normal direction and 1 for reversed direction. That means if the byte contains and odd number and you add 1 to it, it will change that bit from 1 to 0 but will also add 1 to the next bit which dictates the speed step control. If that bit is 1 and you add 1 to it, that takes you into the analog bit, and so on.
richhotrainIf you have a different or better way to say something, just say it and resist the temptation to put others down
I was not puttng anyone down, the "when we assume" comment was meant mearly as a joke and was directed at all of us in general because we all assume things at times (notice I said when we assume and not when you assume), I'm sorry if you took offense to it.
richhotrainSpeaking for myself, I was assuming nothing. I simply stated the correct protocol for adjusting the value of CV29 for direction.
What you stated was correct for adjusting the direction setting in the decoder, but not necessarily for the locomotive, so you're either assuming that the decoder is wired correctly, or that the reader understands that you are refering to the decoder setting regardless of the actual direction of the locomotive (to me "running in reverse" sounds more like the physical loco direction rather than the decoder setting).
CSX Robert richhotrain Lastspikemike CV29 determines motor direction assuming the wiring is conventional. You deduct 1 from whatever CV 29 currently reads to set reverse direction. No, you add 1 to the value of CV29 to set reverse direction. If it is already running in reverse, you subtract 1 from the value of CV29 to set forward direction. You're both assuming something, either that the wiring is correct and reverse is programmed into CV29, or CV29 is correct and the wiring is reversed. We all know what happens when we assume, don't we.
richhotrain Lastspikemike CV29 determines motor direction assuming the wiring is conventional. You deduct 1 from whatever CV 29 currently reads to set reverse direction. No, you add 1 to the value of CV29 to set reverse direction. If it is already running in reverse, you subtract 1 from the value of CV29 to set forward direction.
Lastspikemike CV29 determines motor direction assuming the wiring is conventional. You deduct 1 from whatever CV 29 currently reads to set reverse direction.
CV29 determines motor direction assuming the wiring is conventional. You deduct 1 from whatever CV 29 currently reads to set reverse direction.
No, you add 1 to the value of CV29 to set reverse direction. If it is already running in reverse, you subtract 1 from the value of CV29 to set forward direction.
You're both assuming something, either that the wiring is correct and reverse is programmed into CV29, or CV29 is correct and the wiring is reversed. We all know what happens when we assume, don't we.
So, please don't start that crap about what happens when we assume. I had some clown pull that a few months back, replete with profanity, when I did make a fair and logical assumption to help an OP who was not being forthcoming about what we needed to know to help him.
If you have a different or better way to say something, just say it and resist the temptation to put others down.
LastspikemikeOf course if the wiring is reversed that's the other possible reason. North American decoders accept two digit addresses up to 99.
Digitrax, NCE, and TCS all accept primary addresses from 1 - 127, in fact, I don't know of any cuurent production decoders that don't.
Incidentally, I hate the all to common use (even by manufacturers) of "2-digit" and "4-digit", and "long" and "short" addresses because I believe they just add to the confusion. The proper terms are primary address,which can be 1-127, and extended address, which can actually be 0-16,239.