Hello All,
I just checked my messages.
Check your email for reply.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Glad to hear from you!
Have you gotten your cab back from NCE?
wdcrvrSounds like you are running either one loco or another. Have you tried runing (SIC) several locos at the same time?
Sorry if I was confusing.
As I type this I have a three (3) unit Advanced Consist of GP30s running on the main- -with a coal drag of 17 unloaded hoppers, a 70-Tonner on the upper level working the unloading siding, and an RS-3 running on the live programming track with no problems.
I powered down, but did not remove the 70-Tonner and RS-3 from the pike, and added the four (4) unit Advanced Consist of GP40s and ran both Advanced Consists; seven (7) locomotives, with no problems.
For testing purposes I also put the 44-Tonner on the wye; being run through the MRC AD 520 (as wired in my previous post), with no problems.
To clarify I do not run sound-equipped motive power, which will draw more power.
But, to answer your question, yes I am running multiple locomotives simultaneously- -as Advanced Consists and single units.
I have a hand-drawn schematic of my wiring layout as-built.
Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to upload a photo to this site, but if you message me your email address I can send it to you as a PDF.
Again, sorry for the confusion on the number of locomotives I am running simultaneously.
When I first added the AR unit to the old Dynamis system I had a Dickens of a time with the wiring. With the help of the fine folks on these forums, I was able to solve the problem.
By sharing your conversations with Ed at NCE you have helped me solve a seemingly similar problem to what you are experiencing.
I hope I can return the favor.
Been away from this for awhile and was just re-reading your last post. Sounds like you are running either one loco or another. Have you tried runing several locos at the same time? That is when I started getting problems again.
wdcrvr
OOOOOOFFFFFF!!!
wdcrvrThis could not happen because I cannot accurately read the LCD screen on my Power Cab (knocked it off the layout to the concrete floor).
So sorry to hear!
Glad to know NCE- -specifically Ed- -is willing to walk you through the steps necessary to get you up and running.
This might or might not help...
My EB1 has been set to 5.4 Amps via the dip switches, as per Ed's suggestion and the NCE instructions; 1 (A)-Off, 2 (B)- Off, 3 (C) On. My EB1 v1.1 has numerals and not alphabetic characters.
I have been testing my NCE system with three (3) Bachmann GP30s with Digitrax DH126P decoders. Both running as single units and Advance consisting along with a Bachmann 44-tonner and a 70-tonner with OEM decoders running separately.
As I posted before, I used the "coin test" on the mainline- -driven by the EB1, the wye- -driven by the AR520, and the "Live" programming track- -driven by the Auto SW, all tripped the single EB1 and reset when the short was removed.
I did this test while running a Bachmann 70-tonner with the OEM decoder or the three (3) unit GP30 consist.
wdcrvrI can wire a house but I don't understand how this works?
I understand your frustration.
Previously I was an electrician in the entertainment field.
I dealt with power systems from single-phase 120v 60Hz AC, three-phase 240v 60Hz AC, and 230v 50Hz AC (U.K. power), along with 9v, 12v, and 24v, DC control signals, and eventually Digital control signals including the infamous Apple "spaghetti code".
The early robotic lighting units I worked with used a rudimentary form of DCC- -power and control signal transmitted through the same wires. So I understand the "logic" of DCC.
I recommend adding the Digitrax "Big Book Of DCC" to your reference library.
Even though it was originally published in 1999, the basic information of "how" DCC works has not changed in the past few decades. And the "Technical" section will get your mental propeller spinning.
Good luck, keep us apprised of your situation and as always...
Post Script: Using three (3) auto-reversing units on a single pike (layout) is unusual. As always a track diagram is helpful. H.T.H.- -J.J.D.I.
jj
I had thought at my last posting that I was wrapping up this problem. Not so lucky. Skipping all the steps between then and now: the AR1s are all now wired direct to the terminal strip which keeps them from being in line with the EB1. If I have one loco on the layout the EB1 works perfect. But if I put a second loco on the layout, the EB1 trips but does not reset. Back on the phone with Ed at NCE. Skip all the various trials we then went thru and we come to Ed wanting to walk me thru making some changes to the SETUP of the EB1. This could not happen because I cannot accurately read the LCD screen on my Power Cab (knocked it off the layout to the concrete floor). So current status is I have just packed up my Power Cab and the EB1 and sent them off to NCE. They will repair the Power Cab and test the EB1 to make sure there is nothing wrong with it. That was another half hour to hour that Ed spent on the phone with me. They definitely get an A for effort. I will update again when I get my stuff back from NCE. And also (to another poster) I am not prepared to shell out $55 -$65 each for three NCE reversers.
Thanks for all the inputs.
jjdamnitOne problem I see with this wiring configuration is the AR1s are not protected by a circuit breaker- -EB1.
After wiring my pike as I posted above; with the EB1, AR 520, and Auto SW, I tried the "coin test" on the stub end of the wye; fed by the AR 520.
The EB1 did trip.
When I removed the short the EB1 reset!
I also did the "coin test" on the "Live" programming track with the same successful results of the EB1 tripping and then resetting within the factory set response time.
So, it seems that the EB1 will protect the command station/booster with the wiring configuration I have outlined and the EB1 dip switch setting to 5.4 Amps, as Ed from NCE advised.
Please let us know your results when you wire up the other two (2) AR1s.
Something else to consider is the lack of any circuit breakers on your AR1s. Since neither the SB5 nor the AR1 has circuit breaker protection, you risk damaging the SB5 with a dead short inside one of the reversing sections.
It is usually desirable to divide a layout into separate power districts. NCE suggests that multiple EB1 circuit breakers be used to protect separate power districts, one per power district. But a problem arises when a reversing section becomes, in effect, its own power district. It has no circuit breaker protection.
If you wire the AR1 downstream of an EB1 to gain circuit breaker protection, the EB1 (solid state) will react faster than the AR1 (mechanical relay). In that event, the AR1 will fail to reverse the polarity of the rails inside the reversing section.
The best practice is to use solid state auto reversers with solid state circuit breakers. As an alternative to the AR1, I suggest that you consider the PSX-AR which is both an auto reverser and a circuit breaker. Your EB1 could continue to serve as a circuit breaker for the non-reversing section of your layout, which will be its own power district.
Rich
Alton Junction
wdcrvr Rich I did not mention the 3 AR1s at first because it did not occcur to me that they would be a part of the problem. It came up when I was talking to Ed at NCE. AS I stated in my last post he told me how to corrct that issue. Since then I decided to just disconnect the 3 AR1s from the power source which left the reversing sections unpowered. However that did not correct the problem, so I called NCE and talked to Ed again. We determined that the setting on the EB1 was set at 1.5 amps and since I was using the SB5 (5 amps) I needed to change the EB1 setting to the 5.4 amp setting. Bingo! Problem solved.
I did not mention the 3 AR1s at first because it did not occcur to me that they would be a part of the problem. It came up when I was talking to Ed at NCE. AS I stated in my last post he told me how to corrct that issue. Since then I decided to just disconnect the 3 AR1s from the power source which left the reversing sections unpowered. However that did not correct the problem, so I called NCE and talked to Ed again. We determined that the setting on the EB1 was set at 1.5 amps and since I was using the SB5 (5 amps) I needed to change the EB1 setting to the 5.4 amp setting. Bingo! Problem solved.
The SB5 and Power Cab have built in overcurrent sensing for basic self-protection that will continuously try to reset until destroyed if left uncorrected. But, they do not have circuit breakers that will trip or fuses that will blow. So my suggestion is to change the EB1 trip current switch setting to 4.1 amps, just to be safe.
wdcrvr Hats off again to NCE.
Hats off again to NCE.
I am glad you took my advice and called NCE. They have terrific customer support.
Since my last posting I have reconnected one of the AR1. One pair of wires to the reversing section and the other pair of wires to a seperate pair of lugs on the terminal strip. Since the EB1 is on a different output of the terminal strip this AR1 is not "downstream" from the EB1. Everything works just fine. So, as soon as I get the wire I need I will reconnect the other two AR1s in the same manner and expect to have no problems. Problem solved and I learned some stuff in the process. Hats off again to NCE.
wdcrvrI called NCE and talked to Ed again. We determined that the setting on the EB1 was set at 1.5 amps and since I was using the SB5 (5 amps) I needed to change the EB1 setting to the 5.4 amp setting. Bingo! Problem solved.
Thanks for the info.
In the instruction manual, it talks about "How" to set up the various Amperage ratings, through the DIP switches, but it doesn't talk about the "Why".
Thank you for sharing your conversations with Ed at NCE, it helped me immensely.
I did not mention the 3 AR1s at first because it did not occcur to me that they would be a part of the problem. It came up when I was talking to Ed at NCE. AS I stated in my last post he told me how to corrct that issue. Since then I decided to just disconnect the 3 AR1s from the power source which left the reversing sections unpowered. However that did not correct the problem, so I called NCE and talked to Ed again. We determined that the setting on the EB1 was set at 1.5 amps and since I was using the SB5 (5 amps) I needed to change the EB1 setting to the 5.4 amp setting. Bingo! Problem solved. It actually was a combination of the AR1 problem and the setting on the EB1 being too low. So, as soon as I get the wire I need I will have everything in order. Great customer service from NCE!!!
I am responding to the OPs specific situation with MY experiences and solutions to a similar situation I am facing- -without presumption or speculation.
wdcrvrI called NCE. I spoke with Ed. When I mentioned that I had some AR1s (3) on my layout he said that was most likely the trouble. Sounds like the AR1(s) are throwing off the ability (not his terminology) of the EB1 to do its job properly and reset itself. I need to change my wiring so that (the) wire from SB1 goes into a terminal strip. Then wiring goes from one pair of leads of the terminal strip to the EB1 and then on to the track. Then each of the AR1s needs to be wired to other terminals on the strip instead of being wired directly to the track or the buss[SIC]. So I hope I have this figured out... Ordered some wire from Lowes. Should be available by next Wednesday. Any thoughts from the audience? I am confused as to how this will work. I can wire a house but I don't understand how this works? Also, I do have a terminal strip with each pair of lugs insulated from the others. Is that the right thing to use? (Paragraph breaks added for ease of reading- -J.J.D.I)
When I mentioned that I had some AR1s (3) on my layout he said that was most likely the trouble.
Sounds like the AR1(s) are throwing off the ability (not his terminology) of the EB1 to do its job properly and reset itself.
I need to change my wiring so that (the) wire from SB1 goes into a terminal strip.
Then wiring goes from one pair of leads of the terminal strip to the EB1 and then on to the track.
Then each of the AR1s needs to be wired to other terminals on the strip instead of being wired directly to the track or the buss[SIC].
So I hope I have this figured out...
Ordered some wire from Lowes. Should be available by next Wednesday. Any thoughts from the audience? I am confused as to how this will work.
I can wire a house but I don't understand how this works?
Also, I do have a terminal strip with each pair of lugs insulated from the others. Is that the right thing to use?
(Paragraph breaks added for ease of reading- -J.J.D.I)
It has been said, "A picture is worth a thousand words." I don't have the ability to post a picture so I'll try and keep my explanation to under a thousand words.
As I posted before my situation is slightly different in that I have added an NCE Auto SW and I only have one (1) MRC AD-520 Reversing unit while you are using three AR1s, but the basic schematic will be the same, minus the Auto SW.
From the Command Station/Booster (SB1) run a set of wires to a terminal (barrier) strip with eight (8) lugs, or you can use two terminal strips with a minimum of four (4) lugs each.
Looking at the back of the SB1, I color-coded the left "Track" terminal Red and the right terminal Black. Other manufacturers use terminal "A" and "B" respectfully.
I prefer colors as they are easier for me to identify. If you are color blind alphanumeric characters are better.
On one side of the terminal strip(s) gang together; using wires or metal jumpers, four (4) of the lugs on each side. I make mine out of short sections of wire with crimp on spade connectors.
Run the Red & Black wires, respectively, to each half of the now ganged lugs. Again, I use crimp on spade connectors for this.
This will give you four (4) Red and four (4) black lugs in parallel.
One set of wires from the terminal block; Red & Black, will connect to the EB1.
Page 2 of the EB1 instruction manual shows a rough schematic of the unit.
On the input and output screw terminals, one set are marked with an "X" while the others are solid black.
According to the manual, the solid black terminals are "run through". I attach the Black wire to these and the Red wire to the terminals noted with the "X".
The output of the EB1 will go to your bus or "Track Power".
In my situation, I connect the Auto SW to the output of the EB1 using short pieces of wire tinned at both ends maintaining the color-coded polarity.
Following the instructions for the Auto SW, I connect the output labeled "Main" to the bus or "Track Power". For the "Live" programming track option for the Auto SW, I connect another set of wires from Output of the EB1 to the isolated programming track.
As the NCE ProCab manual says, the programming track output of the SB1 does not have enough power to move a locomotive, it is "power restricted" to avoid damaging improperly installed decoders during programming.
Using the Auto SW allows for the programming track to provide full voltage during normal operation.
When the unit detects programming packets, it automatically shuts off the signal to the "Main" and only allows the packets to affect the loco on the isolated programming track. It also allows for "Programming On the Main" when needed.
The remaining three (3) pairs of lugs from the terminal strip now go to the input sides of your AR1s. The outputs go to the double-gapped reversing sections. Thus isolating the AR1s output from the EB1.
One problem I see with this wiring configuration is the AR1s are not protected by a circuit breaker- -EB1.
I tried to put the EB1 between the SB1 and the terminal strip.
When I shorted out the track with this configuration it resulted in the same feedback loop from the AD 520 and the EB1 would not reset- -just as before!
With the wiring configuration I have outlined, I have shorted out the power and, the EB1 resets within the 2-second, factory set, time.
Post Script: When I read your post regarding your conversation with Ed I immediately disconnected the AD-520 from my track, shorted the system, and within the allotted, factory set, 2-seconds the EB1 reset!H.T.H.- -J.J.D.I.
Knowledge is only gained at the expense of pride.
Haven't heard from the OP in a few days. When he first posted about his problem, he did not mention the three AR1s on his layout. He did indicate that he intentionally shorted the track to test the EB1, but it is not clear how he shorted the track and whether one of the reversing sections was involved. It is also not clear how he has wired the layout from the SB5 to the EB1 and how the AR1s are wired as part of this protocol. So, there are some unanswered questions.
I am in the EXACT same situation- -with a few differences.
Because of that, I am only responding to your specific situation with my experiences and solutions without speculation or presumption.
Just this week I upgraded from a Bachmann Dynamis system with the ProBox and 5 Amp booster to the NCE wireless PowerPro.
My 4' x 8' pike has a wye with an MRC AD 520 auto-reversing unit.
Even with the Bachmann ProBox the programming track was practically useless.
As per NCEs own documents the "programming track" output of the command station/booster does not provide enough power to move a locomotive, it only has enough power to program non-sound decoders.
When the programming track is included in the pike; from the output of the command station/booster, the locomotives will "die" after passing over the gapped rails.
I installed an NCE Auto SW. This has two options of setting up a programming track on the pike.
When I installed the NCE system I also included an EB1 in the mix.
I don't use a power bus. Instead, I have the track feeders emanating out from a central terminal strip, thus creating a single power district for all intents and purposes.
The terminal strip has 8 lugs, each insulated from the other, as you have described.
You can buy metal clips that act as jumpers to energize the adjacent lugs. I made "pig-tails" with short sections of wire and spade connectors to do the same thing between isolated lugs.
I did not change the wiring of the pike.
After installation, I had the same problem of the EB1 not resetting.
The AR 520 is a mechanical device. You can hear an audible "click" when the polarity shifts.
After the EB1 tripped I could hear the AR 520 clicking in an endless feedback cycle, until I shut off the power to the command station/booster, thus resetting the EB1.
I have come up with a wiring schematic of my pike that I will need to refine.
Thank you for sharing your conversation with Ed, that helped immensely.
Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to post pictures and I cannot directly respond through the PM function of this website.
If you PM me your email address I will share with you what I have discovered and the solutions I have come up with.
wdcrvr I need to change my wiring so that wire from SB1 goes into a terminal strip. Then wiring goes from one pair of leads of the terminal strip to the EB1 and then on to the track. Then each of the AR1s needs to be wired to other terminals on the strip instead of being wired directly to the track or the buss.
I need to change my wiring so that wire from SB1 goes into a terminal strip. Then wiring goes from one pair of leads of the terminal strip to the EB1 and then on to the track. Then each of the AR1s needs to be wired to other terminals on the strip instead of being wired directly to the track or the buss.
Glad to learn that you called NCE and got some helpful advice.
Some years back, I had a somewhat similar problem. In my case, I had some Digitrax AR1s on my layout which always worked fine until I created power districts and added PSX circuit breakers. The PSX units were solid state and the AR1s had mechanical relays. The result was that the PSX units reacted faster than the AR1s and shut down the power districts before the AR1s could react to the short. I wound up replacing the AR1s with PSX-ARs at the suggestion of the late Randy Rinker.
What is different about your problem is that NCE is suggesting that the solid state EB1 is incompatible with the mechanically relayed AR1, causing the EB1 to malfunction. NCE is suggesting a wiring protocol in which the AR1s will not be downstream from the EB1.
Before rewiring everything, you might try disabling the AR1s to see if the EB1 will then function correctly. If it does, and your budget can afford it, you might consider replacing the AR1s with PSX-AR units so that everything will be solid state and compatible with one another.
I called NCE. I spoke with Ed. When I mentioned that I had some AR1s (3) on my layout he said that was most likely the trouble. Sounds like the AR1 are throwing off the ability (not his terminology) of the EB1 to do its job properly and reset itself. I need to change my wiring so that wire from SB1 goes into a terminal strip. Then wiring goes from one pair of leads of the terminal strip to the EB1 and then on to the track. Then each of the AR1s needs to be wired to other terminals on the strip instead of being wired directly to the track or the buss. So I hope I have this figured out. Ordered some wire from Lowes. Should be available by next Wednesday. Any thoughts from the audience? I am confused as to how this will work. I can wire a house but I don't understand how this works? Also, I do have a terminal strip with each pair of lugs insulated from the others. Is that the right thing to use?
wdcrvr I have version 1.1 wdcrvr
I have version 1.1
Put a call in to NCE. They answer the phone and provide excellent technical support.
wdcrvr Since I am using the SB5 the power cab is functioning just as another controller. I would not think that would be the problem?
Since I am using the SB5 the power cab is functioning just as another controller. I would not think that would be the problem?
wdcrvrI would not think that would be the problem? Add Quote to your Post
I would not think so either, but we are really missing Randy who wouid have solved it by now.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy Is this the newer version 1.1? I don't know about 1.0 but the new version can be set up to require a manual reset. That requires a push button. See the instructions here You can reverse engineer the instructions to turn off the manual reset, if that is the problem.
Is this the newer version 1.1?
I don't know about 1.0 but the new version can be set up to require a manual reset. That requires a push button.
See the instructions here You can reverse engineer the instructions to turn off the manual reset, if that is the problem.
If your EB1 is version 1.0, I'm not sure that it works with the Power Cab which may be why you have to power down your system and then power up again.
I reserve the right to be wrong here.
I am using NCE Power Cab system with an SB5. Installed the EB1 per instructions with connections to the SB5 and to the track. Everything was fine. I intentionaly shorted the track to test the EB1. It shut down the system as it was supposed to. But I waited for the EB1 to reset and return power but it did not. I turned off the power and turned it back on and the system was back up. Tried this several times with the same result. The instructions indicate that the EB1 comes from the factory with a restart setting of two seconds. I waited 15 to 20 seconds with no result. Can anyone tell me what needs to be done?
Thanks