I really wanted to hold my layouts timeframe to 1955 but this changed it to 1957.Maybe new in 1956.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Turned 84 in July, aging is definitely not for wimps.
RR_Mel I try to keep everything on my layout under 1955, I do have a 1957 Chevy and two 56 Chevys.Mel
I try to keep everything on my layout under 1955, I do have a 1957 Chevy and two 56 Chevys.Mel
My early diesel switching layout got pushed up to 1957 so I could use my beloved Ford C-Model tilt cabs in the scenes. I ran motor freight off and on in different parts of my careers and any day I was assigned a C-Model at Roadway was a very good day!
Lastspikemike tstage Lastspikemike Electrically there can be no difference between using the NMRA plug and soldering direct. Same for the plastic clips that jam the wire strands onto what would be soldering pads. Electricity isn't a form of magic. There's a huge pile of urban myth in this hobby, I've noticed. The urban myth is that those plastic clips will always stay in place and NEVER fatique & split or loosen over time. I'd much rather trust a well-soldered solder joint for electrically securing a wire in place over a plastic clip ANY day of the week. To do so, otherwise, is foolhardy. The 8-pin socket is a friction fit so that's a much improved connection over the plastic clips, too. Tom Exactly my point. Next we get three anecdotal reports of clip failure to validate the myth. Then someone like me points out that the conductivity of the solder joint is far less than the clipped copper to copper assuming the solder joint was competently done which is not easy to know. Wonder why those crazy manufacturers adopted such an unreliable assembly method.
tstage Lastspikemike Electrically there can be no difference between using the NMRA plug and soldering direct. Same for the plastic clips that jam the wire strands onto what would be soldering pads. Electricity isn't a form of magic. There's a huge pile of urban myth in this hobby, I've noticed. The urban myth is that those plastic clips will always stay in place and NEVER fatique & split or loosen over time. I'd much rather trust a well-soldered solder joint for electrically securing a wire in place over a plastic clip ANY day of the week. To do so, otherwise, is foolhardy. The 8-pin socket is a friction fit so that's a much improved connection over the plastic clips, too. Tom
Lastspikemike Electrically there can be no difference between using the NMRA plug and soldering direct. Same for the plastic clips that jam the wire strands onto what would be soldering pads. Electricity isn't a form of magic. There's a huge pile of urban myth in this hobby, I've noticed.
Electrically there can be no difference between using the NMRA plug and soldering direct. Same for the plastic clips that jam the wire strands onto what would be soldering pads.
Electricity isn't a form of magic.
There's a huge pile of urban myth in this hobby, I've noticed.
The urban myth is that those plastic clips will always stay in place and NEVER fatique & split or loosen over time. I'd much rather trust a well-soldered solder joint for electrically securing a wire in place over a plastic clip ANY day of the week. To do so, otherwise, is foolhardy. The 8-pin socket is a friction fit so that's a much improved connection over the plastic clips, too.
Tom
Exactly my point.
Next we get three anecdotal reports of clip failure to validate the myth.
Then someone like me points out that the conductivity of the solder joint is far less than the clipped copper to copper assuming the solder joint was competently done which is not easy to know.
Wonder why those crazy manufacturers adopted such an unreliable assembly method.
I wish you'd write in understandable terms.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
IDRick IDRick I haven't taken out the PCB and need to do that to confirm. Don't have access to my small screwdrivers at the moment so can't verify. I'm probably saying it wrong but for my purposes, I call the 8 prongs sticking out as the harness and the eight holes which are friction fit to the 8 prongs as the connector. Looking at the connector, all 8 wires are attached correctly to the connector. IMO, the only wire that may need to soldered is the common between the front and rear headlight (hidden from view by the PCB).
IDRick I haven't taken out the PCB and need to do that to confirm. Don't have access to my small screwdrivers at the moment so can't verify. I'm probably saying it wrong but for my purposes, I call the 8 prongs sticking out as the harness and the eight holes which are friction fit to the 8 prongs as the connector. Looking at the connector, all 8 wires are attached correctly to the connector. IMO, the only wire that may need to soldered is the common between the front and rear headlight (hidden from view by the PCB).
I had a chance to check on the blue common wire. It connected correctly with separate wires from pin 7 to the front and rear headlights. Very easy mobile decoder install with change out bulb for LED + 1k resistor and use the 8 pin plug.
IDRick snjroy Good point Rich. I always change the original bulbs and put LEDs anyway. I'm actually a bit shocked by the fact that someone could actually burn out a bulb on a DCC-ready loco by plugging in a decoder. Some of my connectors took a lot of beating, but none seem to have broken as a result of it. If that was the case, I would hardwire in a heartbeat. Depends on the locomotive and decoder. My stock Life Like P2k GP30's use 1.5 volt bulbs for the headlights. Some decoders such as the TCS T1 can be used with 12 v incandescent bulbs but obviously would blow the stock 1.5 volt bulbs. TCS-LL8 was designed to be a drop-in for most Life Like P2K locomotives and provides 1.5 volts to the headlights. Thus I should use the LL8 if I want to use the stock bulbs and avoid the T1 decoder. I plan on switching headlights from bulb to LED and will use the T1-LED decoder with built in resistors for the headlamps.
snjroy Good point Rich. I always change the original bulbs and put LEDs anyway. I'm actually a bit shocked by the fact that someone could actually burn out a bulb on a DCC-ready loco by plugging in a decoder. Some of my connectors took a lot of beating, but none seem to have broken as a result of it. If that was the case, I would hardwire in a heartbeat.
Good point Rich. I always change the original bulbs and put LEDs anyway. I'm actually a bit shocked by the fact that someone could actually burn out a bulb on a DCC-ready loco by plugging in a decoder.
Some of my connectors took a lot of beating, but none seem to have broken as a result of it. If that was the case, I would hardwire in a heartbeat.
richhotrain Based upon my personal experience, I can think of a couple of reasons not to use the original connectors. For one thing, the factory installed board on a DCC Ready loco is designed for lighting on a DC loco. If you keep the DC lighting but install an 8-pin connector running from the decoder, you can blow the lights, especially low voltage incandescent bulbs. Rich
Based upon my personal experience, I can think of a couple of reasons not to use the original connectors. For one thing, the factory installed board on a DCC Ready loco is designed for lighting on a DC loco. If you keep the DC lighting but install an 8-pin connector running from the decoder, you can blow the lights, especially low voltage incandescent bulbs.
Rich
Stix talked about never frying a decoder by plugging it into the DC lighting board. Neither have I.
woodone talked about destroying a board by soldering on it incorrectly. Never had that problem.
Alton Junction
jjdamnit A TCS 9-pin to NMRA 8-pin harness is available for "plug & play", the C628-H/C630-H Harness. Thanks! After further checking, I see that TCS sells the T1P-SH for the same price as T1-LED. I could save by purchasing the T1P-SH and add my own LED + 1K resistor to each headlight. The T1-LED would require purchasing a harness which is much expensive than a 1k resistor! IDRick The P2K's do have a factory pcb that will be removed which leaves an 8 hole connector. You're suggesting that I remove this as well rather than plug it into an 8 pin harness from the new decoder? The PCB you are referencing is a dummy plug that allows the "DCC Ready" locomotive to run on DC. This is not the main PCB that provides the circuitry for the lights. Yes, when you remove the dummy plug it allows you to plug in an 8-pin NMRA compliment decoder into the main PCB. IDRICK The error was my poor description. The PCB in the LL P2K GP30 does control the headlights and is not a dummy plug. In my post I did discuss removing the main PCB, not just the dummy plug. If you do remove the main PCB then you do need to hard wire (solder) the decoder in place. IDRick I haven't taken out the PCB and need to do that to confirm. Don't have access to my small screwdrivers at the moment so can't verify. I'm probably saying it wrong but for my purposes, I call the 8 prongs sticking out as the harness and the eight holes which are friction fit to the 8 prongs as the connector. Looking at the connector, all 8 wires are attached correctly to the connector. IMO, the only wire that may need to soldered is the common between the front and rear headlight (hidden from view by the PCB). IDRick Appreciate your help and your interest! Keep us informed and... IDRick Will do but it will be a while before I purchase the DCC system. Hope this helps.
A TCS 9-pin to NMRA 8-pin harness is available for "plug & play", the C628-H/C630-H Harness.
Thanks! After further checking, I see that TCS sells the T1P-SH for the same price as T1-LED. I could save by purchasing the T1P-SH and add my own LED + 1K resistor to each headlight. The T1-LED would require purchasing a harness which is much expensive than a 1k resistor!
IDRick
The P2K's do have a factory pcb that will be removed which leaves an 8 hole connector. You're suggesting that I remove this as well rather than plug it into an 8 pin harness from the new decoder?
The PCB you are referencing is a dummy plug that allows the "DCC Ready" locomotive to run on DC. This is not the main PCB that provides the circuitry for the lights.
Yes, when you remove the dummy plug it allows you to plug in an 8-pin NMRA compliment decoder into the main PCB.
IDRICK The error was my poor description. The PCB in the LL P2K GP30 does control the headlights and is not a dummy plug.
In my post I did discuss removing the main PCB, not just the dummy plug. If you do remove the main PCB then you do need to hard wire (solder) the decoder in place.
IDRick Appreciate your help and your interest!
Keep us informed and...
IDRick Will do but it will be a while before I purchase the DCC system.
Hope this helps.
If you destroyed a board by soldering on it you need a lesson about soldering, I would say. You need a small tip (CLEAN!) a hot tip (about 700 degrees) and some good flux) Flux is your friend here. Tin wires first-tin the pad too- then hold the wire onto the pad, touch the tip to wire&pad quick out and you are done- NO HEAT transferred to the board..
I've never fried a decoder that was plugged into an eight or nine pine plug. I have ruined a lightboard replacement type decoder a couple of times by overheating it while trying to solder the wire connections to it.
Hello All,
IDRickI am considering a TCS T1-LED decoder...
I use TCS and Digitrax aftermarket decoders, depending on the installation.
The TCS decoder I have installed is the KAM-LED series. I am not familiar with the T-series.
IDRick(T)he locomotives are great runners now on DC and headlights work correctly.
As the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
If these locos are strong runners in DC they are great candidates for DCC.
IDRickThe P2K's do have a factory pcb that will be removed which leaves an 8 hole connector. You're suggesting that I remove this as well rather than plug it into an 8 pin harness from the new decoder?
Sorry if I did not explain this well.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
snjroy Would I select a decoder based on the connector? Not necessarily. But if both mate naturally, why not use the original connectors? Some are a bit of a pain to disconnect, but overall, they make troubleshooting a lot easier.
Would I select a decoder based on the connector? Not necessarily. But if both mate naturally, why not use the original connectors? Some are a bit of a pain to disconnect, but overall, they make troubleshooting a lot easier.
Going back to the OP's question, I personally only hardwire if I have to and as a last resort. In 99% of the cases, it's an older locomotive that was not DCC ready. I do not bother installing plugs like Mel does, but it's obviously a good practice if you have the skills, patience and large enough loco to accomodate that. I would not alter a brass engine for that though...
Simon
LastspikemikeWe could start with overbuilt benchwork.
Building benchwork you can walk on that will last your lifetime is not overbuilt, it is sturdy and important. There is no myth that built as good as practical is important for a permanent installation.
LastspikemikeWe could continue with strange ideas about DC reversing loops.
There are no strange ideas about wiring DC reverse loops, there are different ways to accomplish it successfully. Just because it is not your preferred way does not make it an urban myth.
LastspikemikeWe could delve into using grease or oil or no lubricant in locomotive gear trains.
All I have ever seen from people with experience and success is keep it clean and use plastic compatible products. What is the myth?
LastspikemikeAnd the fairly weird obsession with voltage drops in a system that relies on lowering voltage to control and simulate locomotive movements.
Voltage drops along the run of a train are problematic and annoying, because as you suggested, voltage drops change train speed. There is no myth that voltage drops effect operation.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Lastspikemike Electrically there can be no difference between using the NMRA plug and soldering direct. Same for the plastic clips that jam the wire strands onto what would be soldering pads.
Lastspikemike richhotrain Lastspikemike There's a huge pile of urban myth in this hobby, I've noticed. Can you name one as an example so we know where you are going with this? I'm not going anywhere with this. We could start with overbuilt benchwork. We could continue with strange ideas about DC reversing loops. We could delve into using grease or oil or no lubricant in locomotive gear trains. And the fairly weird obsession with voltage drops in a system that relies on lowering voltage to control and simulate locomotive movements. But I refrain.
richhotrain Lastspikemike There's a huge pile of urban myth in this hobby, I've noticed. Can you name one as an example so we know where you are going with this?
Lastspikemike There's a huge pile of urban myth in this hobby, I've noticed.
Can you name one as an example so we know where you are going with this?
I'm not going anywhere with this.
We could start with overbuilt benchwork.
We could continue with strange ideas about DC reversing loops.
We could delve into using grease or oil or no lubricant in locomotive gear trains.
And the fairly weird obsession with voltage drops in a system that relies on lowering voltage to control and simulate locomotive movements.
But I refrain.
Now, if there were a widely held belief that layouts cause cancer, or staring at LEDs causes blindness, or using wood to frame a layout leads to termite invasions, well, that would be a whole different story.
Thanks everyone! I appreciate reading your thoughts and advice! Helped me tremendously! Randy Rinker was my goto guy for many things and it was nice to see his name again and read his advice as given previously in the forum (thanks Rich).
Keeping the DC board in place and using the 8-pin NMRA connector seems so easy, why not?
Well, in memory of our dear friend, Randy Rinker, here is what he always did when converting a DC loco to DCC . He always removed the DC board and skipped the 8-pin NMRA connector in favor of hardwiring the decoder in place. For a long time, I ignored his advice, and I paid the price more than once with fried decoders and/or blown function outputs and burned out incandescent bulbs.
Randy always replaced the factory bulbs with Sunny White or Golden White LEDs and put 1K ohm resistors on one leg of every LED unless the decoder had built-in resistors for this purpose.
Regarding wiring, the blue wire is always Common (+) and the (+) side of every LED is joined to the blue wire. I always add a resistor to the positive leg of each LED, but you can put the resistor on either leg.
You find the positive side of an LED by looking for the smaller of the two metal pieces (the ends of the legs) inside the LED enclosure. The larger metal piece is the negative side which connects to one of the function outputs for front headlight, Mars light, rear light, number boards, ditch lights.
Regarding the P2K loco, I use a 5mm LED for the Mars light and a 3mm LED for the headlight. I believe that Randy did the same thing. If the installation calls for an even smaller LED, you can always use a SMD LED, short for Surface Mounted Device. An SMD LED is a micro LED, smaller than 1mm.
I won't repeat some of things that have already been stated. However, I will make one comment. If the 8-pin socket comes with the locomotive I usually try to take advantage of it. However, if the wires running to track power, motor, and lighting are attached to a PCB underneath with those flimsy plastic clips, I remove the clips and solder the wires directly to the PCB for a much more secure electrical connection.
I would say use the plug if it gives you all you want.
Now, my engines have class lights, numberboards, and cab roof beacons so I need more function leads, so I do hardwire. But my grandfather taught me to solder back in 1961, so it's no biggie for me.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
I converted a number of HO DC locos to DCC with sound. In a couple I used a LokSound Select Direct, which was the circuit board replacement. That still required adding a speaker, of course.
In most cases I removed the original circuit board and bulb lighting, using the Select encapsulated decoder, with 8-pin plug. I removed the plug and hard wired in most cases. I learned to make my own speaker enclosures (0.040" styrene) with micro speakers. Since these speakers usually have improved sound with larger enclosures, removing the original circuit board often provided more flexibility for decoder and speaker placement. In some cases I used the smaller Select Micro decoder, good for 0.75A motor draw, to save more space when desired.
On lighting, I almost always convert bulbs to LEDs. I keep 5mm, 3mm and 0604 (pre-wired) on hand, plus 1k (and a few other size) resistors. If the bulb can be on the chassis, that is preferred, whereas bulbs attached to the shell (or lightpipes on the shell) make the bulb wiring (from the chassis) a bit long and tether the shell to the chassis re: maintenance (unless you install disconnects in the wiring). In many cases I shorten too long light pipes as useful. I do not hesitate to CA glue the LEDs to the shell, lightpipe, etc. One can use white glue, but you have to let it dry well until securely attached.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Ron, jjdamnit, and woodone,
Thank you for the well-written descriptions! I'm a novice at DCC installation and have limited experience with soldering such small wires... Your writeups were most helpful!
The P2K's do have a factory pcb that will be removed which leaves an 8 hole connector. You're suggesting that I remove this as well rather than plug it into an 8 pin harness from the new decoder? I do understand they could be faulty but the locomotives are great runners now on DC and headlights work correctly... Perhaps the novice solution is to purchase both a 9 wire Jst and 9wire jst connected to an 8 pin harness. Try the latter first and if there is a problem, switch to hardwire with the 9 wire JST?
My P2K GP30's only have front and rear headlights which simplifies wiring. A pigtail connection should be easy solution for the blue ground wire.
I am considering a TCS T1-LED decoder that has 1k resistors for front and rear headlights. The GP30's are a second-generation diesel and I understand I should purchase "sunny white" LEDs, correct? The ones I see for sale on-line are all 3mm for sunny whites.
I want to avoid connecting the LED's to the shell. So much easier to work on the locomotive to simply remove the shell and set aside without worrying about disturbing the wiring...
Thanks for your time and great advice!
Mel, thanks for your replies! My p2k's are converted by using a 9 pin JST connected to an 8 pin wiring harness. The JST plugs into the decoder and 8 pin harness plugs into the wired 8 hole connector on the locomotive. The latest version loksound v5 58420 decoder has an 8 pin harness which would be a quick plug in to my P2K's eight pin connector and followed with speaker installation.
I am considering a TCS T1-LED mobile decoder that comes with a 9-wire harness for hardwiring. It has internal resistors for the front and rear headlights making LED conversion a snap! However, it would be easier to convert to sound later if I install the mobile decoder with an 8 pin harness + 9 wire JST. Decisions, decisions!
Many factory-installed Printed Circuit Boards (PCBs) with NMRA 8-pin plugs not only have the circuitry for lights; incandescent or LED built-in, they also have chokes to prevent errant Radio Frequency (RF) signals on the board's circuitry.
These chokes are required by European Union countries.
Because most locomotives are manufactured in China these are "included" in the PCBs for the North American Market.
As well-intentioned as these components are they can affect the performance of certain features of after-market decoders when using the NMRA 8-pin plug on the board.
Often these components are found on the motor rather than the PCB.
Here's a thread on the subject...
Done with caps & resistors- -Uh...chokes, on motors...
The advantage of removing the O.E.M. PCB and hardwiring the decoder is these components built into the board are eliminated. Those attached to the motor need to be removed separately.
If the O.E.M. lights are LED, wired directly to the PCB with no resistors inline, then resistors need to be installed (as posted) with the aftermarket decoder, or a decoder that supports LED lighting must be used.
No matter how many accessory functions wires- -White, Yellow, Green, Violet, etc., you have they all use the single common (Blue wire) whether incandescent or LED.
When presented with multiple accessory functions many modelers simply "pig-tail" all the wires together to the single Blue wire from the decoder.
Other modelers, when given space in the locomotive, will fabricate a miniature terminal block, often with a strip of PCB.
The advantage to this method is each individual wire to the accessory is attached to the board rather than "pig-tailed" together.
If the need to repair, replace or add an additional common is easily done by soldering another wire to the board. Many after-market decoders can support six or more separate functions.
Another method of connecting the common (Blue wire) is to "daisy-chain" the components, running wires from the decoder to an accessory, then from that accessory to the next, so on and so forth. This requires more wiring than the "pig-tail" or terminal block method.
The physical size of the LED bulb depends on how much space is available.
On many of my diesel locomotives, the LED bulbs are directly cemented to the shell. While others are mounted to the frame with a "light pipe" or masking to get the light to where it needs to be.
The brightness of the LEDs is controlled not by the physical size of the bulb but by the color- -warm white vs. bright white and the value of the resistor. The lower the value of the resistor the brighter the output of the LED, to a certain extent.
If the value of the resistor is too low it will allow too much current to the LED and lead to premature or instant failure.
The choice to use or bypass the O.E.M. PCB can also be dependent on the soldering skills and tools of the modeler.
About the blue wire. It needs to run to every light function you plan on using. When I do it I usually do it like this:
The blue wire from the decoder gets cut short and I then get 2 pieces of blue wire and twist the ends together. Then solder the twisted ends and the wire from the decoder together. then heat shrink over that. This gives me on blue wire for the front and one blue wire for the back fo the engine.
Then I figure all the lights I want to use and pick the size of resistor for eachh function based on brightness. and solder these to the positive lead on the LED's. Once that is done I take all the resistor leads from the front divide them into 2 groups add the Blue wire from ealrier to one of the groups and then twist the groups together and solder them. Then Twist the 2 soldered groups together end to end and solder that. Then cover with heat shrink this has to go on prior to soldering. Then repeat the process with the back. Usually its like 3 wires from one side of the final solder joint and a pair from the other. Not to hard the shorter you keep the wires the neater the appearance when done but a little more difficult to do. Always tin the wires prior to soldering and use a good electronic compatable flux.
Hope this helps/makes sense.
Ron
I wasn’t thinking on my earlier post. The original NMRA 8 pin connector will only work on older equipment, say from up to the 1960s. The newer locomotives have much more than headlight and backup lighting thus requiring more wires.My newest locomotives are GP9s, SD9s and E7 series. I do have a pair of Krauss Maffeis from the 60s only because they’re different. I try to keep everything on my layout under 1955, I do have a 1957 Chevy and two 56 Chevys.Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.