I retired at the end of December and just recently found that I was given an award with a nice stipend! Decided, cool, time to get that DCC system that I've wanted and add sound to my locomotives! Woohoo! Nice use for the stipend!
But reality has hit. After watching several videos, I developed a preference for loksound decoders and have figured out how to install one of their decoders + sound in some of my locomotives. While they have excellent sound and provide significant user configurability, it is clear that programming is beyond me. I've watched videos and read numerous threads but it's just too steep of a hill for me to climb and I have no one locally that can help.
Sound was the primary motivation for the planned switch to DCC. My current layout is small and I can easily operate trains with the Aristo Craft Train Engineer (ACTE). I will be moving in a few months and plan on a larger switching layout but, again, lone wolf operation. While it is a loss to not have sound, resources can be diverted to other more enjoyable aspects when building the new layout. The ACTE will work well for testing layout sections during construction and I may reconsider non-sound DCC after completing construction.
A hobby is supposed to be fun rather than work and frustration. Hats off to those who are much smarter than I am and have a greater will to persevere through the learning curve challenges!
IDRickBut reality has hit. After watching several videos, I developed a preference for loksound decoders and have figured out how to install one of their decoders + sound in some of my locomotives. While they have excellent sound and provide significant user configurability, it is clear that programming is beyond me. I've watched videos and read numerous threads but it's just too steep of a hill for me to climb and I have no one locally that can help.
Rick,
DCC can be as simple or a complex as you want it to be. All you really need to accomplish is to address your locomotive. And, even then, a decoder already comes addressed to "3" so you only need a DCC system and to call up "3" on your throttle. That's it - simple.
Even as a lone wolf and with a smallish layout, I still enjoyed the independent control of my locomotives using DCC. Sound was icing on the cake. However, sometimes I prefer the cake without the icing. So, motor control is more important to me than sound.
If you're happy with DC for now - that's great. Do give DCC another look-see at some point though. And, whichever system you eventually end up going/staying with, folks are here to answer any and all general or specific questions you might have about both.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I found joining a Loksound and an NCE groups.io very informative. I had a factory installed loksound S-1 where the engine sounds started when the track was powered up. I found the answer there, but not here.
The usual stuff, changing horns, engine numbers have been no problem. But I also learned there is a glitch in the Procab, affecting programming of indexed CV's. I don't recall ever seeing that in this forum.
Sometimes I feel like I'm a balloon pilot hanging out with fighter pilots and astronauts. The capabilities in loksound is way more than I will ever want. So I don't need to learn to fly an F-23
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I also use ACTE, three of them. They are wireless walk around, as good as DCC for that. For a switching layout operated by one person you probably will have very few locos on the layout at a time.
It is simple to wire a siding so that it can be turned off and another engine, sitting on a similar siding put to work.
My layout is block control with three operators and ideally three conductors during an ops session.
BigDaddySometimes I feel like I'm a balloon pilot hanging out with fighter pilots and astronauts. The capabilities in loksound is way more than I will ever want. So I don't need to learn to fly an F-23
Henry,
The key is to remap the F-23 so that it activates when pressing F1...
IDRickloksound decoders and have figured out how to install one of their decoders + sound in some of my locomotives. While they have excellent sound and provide significant user configurability, it is clear that programming is beyond me. I've watched videos and read numerous threads but it's just too steep of a hill for me to climb and I have no one locally that can help. Sound was the primary motivation for the planned switch to DCC.
The way to enjoy DCC/Sound is to buy it factory installed. Doing the aftermarket installation way takes the fun out of it. Based upon the nature of the questions and the advice I read, aftermarket install problems and questions are the focus of most of the discussions on the internet. And also the problems.
DCC/Sound locos come ready to run perfectly, for the most part. Only need to change a few CVs for sound volume and maybe some momentum, hardly could even be described as "programming". Plenty of producers sell DCC/Sound locos with Loksound. Just unwrap it, place it on the track, and its ready run the way 90% of the buyers want it too.
Skip the hassle. Buy factory installed.
And I also own the ACTE, and a backup. They are great way to enjoy DC. Great lighting and slow speed control and wireless. Glad I saved mine too.
- Douglas
Just wanted to say thank you all for your thoughtful comments!
My post was partially due to frustration. Randy Rinker, my goto guy, at least twice told me to make sure I reduce the sound level to 50% **before** testing speakers in a new install or a new locomotive. It was a natural to search for how to lower volume. I found posts saying: 1) use lokprogrammer software & hardware, 2) use JMRI, and 3) use lokprogrammer software to identify which CV's to change in JMRI. My visceral reaction was I have to learn one or two software programs to change volume, really?? Nope, not at this time.
I am happy with my four P2k, one atlas trainman, and two athearn BB locomotives. I agree purchasing factory-installed sound is a great idea but it wasn't an option when most of my locomotives were purchased. They can be easily converted to non-sound dcc but adding sound is challenging for some of them. I've never had sound so while I'd like to have it, I can set it aside for the future.
The ACTE works very well, not as techy and slick as a dcc throttle, but an enjoyable throttle for switching, IMO. Easy to use with my Athearn BB during construction of the new layout.
Apologies for grumbling, I'll get there down the road, just not right now...
Thanks again for the thoughtful replies!
I had some trouble getting into DCC as well. My mind seemed to rebel against some of the concepts, not really understanding why DCC is what it is, and does what it does the WAY it does it. It was stressful. Between a tech at Digitrax and Randy, it wasn't more than a couple of tense weeks before I found myself grinning and saying to myself, "I got this..."
You MUST persevere. I must because it is my tank regiment's motto. But you must because you don't give up and because you can always take another swing at it when your mojo's a bit stiffer. Take one CV acquisition and change at a time. Change the address to the cab number per the instructions. Count that as a success. When you feel settled again, tackle CV3 (inertia) that makes the locomotive accelerate a heavier train more slowly. And so on...one block at a time, one step at a time.
You're overwhelmed, you say, and you must be the 20,421st person to say that their first stab at DCC one evening. I'll bet there are less than 200 left who won't try to master it once more. The rest stuck to it and won. Give yourself HUGE PROPS for installing a decoder. I still haven't done that, but I'm pretty solid with DCC operations by now.
One day at a time, one step towards that first CV change. You can do it.
Hi there. Congrats on your retirement! I have zero experience with ACTE. I have a Digitrax Zephyr system and it's been fairly easy for me to convert from DC to DCC. Most of my locos were hardwired. As others have said, going into this gradually is the trick. Using a programming track to test everything first is a must. The industry defaults are OK in general and to keep things simple, I used CV1 only for my loco addresses to start - using 2 digit addresses on my locos (the 2 first of those with 4 numbers). I have since then learned how to program them in 4 digits. Anyway, there is no shame in applying the KISS principle and learn gradually.
Simon
I have had my frustrations with dcc, have voiced my objections on these forums, and even used (and wore out) the MRC Tech 6 Sound Controller operating dcc engines in "pseudo" dcc.
However, for the future, and for my son who likes fully featured diesels, steam engines with cool lights, sound, and even smoke...yes I've had to use DCC, and I can toggle to plain DC when needed using a simple DPDT toggle switch...
I've recently had a few issues trying to speed match two different (manufacturers and decoders) diesels in dcc, but I'll get that sorted out. A couple people on these forums have helped me out. It's not hard per se--just takes time and a little patience...sometimes more than a little patience. Otherwise, I'm just programming numbers.
Then the new last run MTH 2-8-8-4 arrived, and once the smoke is turned down (it sucks too much voltage in dcc) it runs as well as anything; the sound is great and the low speed motor control is great, in real dcc (so many people say MTH engines only work in DCS--that is just completely untrue). It really IS as simple as just putting the engine on the track, and applying power plus a few buttons for lights, bell, and whistle to enjoy it running very well in dcc.
I will NOT be doing any installs in the plain dc units still on hand, but those I have acquired that have dcc, I also do not run in plain dc, because usually they do run a bit better in dcc than in plain dc. (I bought engines because I wanted that engine, without much regard to whether or not it had dcc.)
So I have the best of both worlds. I don't even bother to consist in dcc. I don't really need to if the engines are speed matched and respond to address number 3. Worst thing is the lights on trailing units might be on...it's my railroad.
John
I have used my fair share of DCC on other peoples layouts. I understand the basics of programing adjustments with CV's.
In my work years ago I programmed PLC's, designed machine controls, both solid state and with relays, build and wired process machinery.
I have seriously considered DCC several times since it came out.
But I still use 10 of the Aristo Craft Train Engineer throttles.
I use them with a complex DC advanced cab control system that provides:
CTC, detection, signaling, one button route control of turnouts, walk around tower operation, automatic train control (colision avoidance).
The Aristo Train Engineer is an excellent throttle that provides pulse width modulated speed control much like a DCC decoder.
Not the best photo, but it will give those not familiar some idea what we are talking about.
This is shown with the base station attached to the power supplies I use.
These throttles are 27 Mhz radio and have excellent range, 100' to 150' even with stubby antennas.
Five simple buttons control the train - FASTER, SLOWER, EMERGENCY STOP, LEFT or RIGHT direction.
Yes, the issue of sound.
One of the big reasons I still use DC, is a lack of interest in onboard sound.
So, we all must decide what is important to us, and learn or not learn what we need to know.
Sheldon
PRR8259I don't even bother to consist in dcc. I don't really need to if the engines are speed matched and respond to address number 3. Worst thing is the lights on trailing units might be on...it's my railroad.
John, that's the way I do it too. I have a couple of sets of short switchers and road switchers I run together,as if they a permanently mu'ed with a drawbar. I really like the sound of both units running in stereo.
Since the same locos run together, I don't fuss with the consisting function. I assume that is for when you would want to run three untis together once, break them up, then reassemble them with different locos at another time...each time assigning a new consist. My locos simply have the same address as each other, and speed matching was no problem (as we've discussed)
I run mine back to back. So I need to set the trailing loco to operate in reverse from the lead loco, and, both rear lights need to stay off.
Instead of reading the manual and trying to get educated about concepts, try these simple CV setting that I have found to work:
OEM Installed LokSound: Trailing unit only: CV 29 to 1 (changes direction)
Both lead and training units: CV 32 to 2 (accesses the higher CVs) CV282 to 0. (turns off the rear light)
Athearn Genesis Tsunami2: Trailing unit only: CV 29 to 3 for direction (had to experiment with this since the manual is not straightforward about it)
Both units: Set CV 58 to a value 2 units above the default setting. Yes, the default value of CV58 rear light is different depending upon what loco it is...for whatever reason that makes sense. Read the CV...if the value is 62, the shut off value is 64. If its 221, then set to 223 etc
Fortunately, these settings also seems to also change the F5 or F6 rear ditchlight function correctly as well for ATH Genesis locos.
IDRick I retired at the end of December and just recently found that I was given an award with a nice stipend! Decided, cool, time to get that DCC system that I've wanted and add sound to my locomotives! Woohoo! Nice use for the stipend!
My advice is take the rest of that stipend and buy the Lokprogrammer hardware. Play with it for a couple of days. You will have the time of your life and won't go back.
George
ATLANTIC CENTRALFive simple buttons control the train - FASTER, SLOWER, EMERGENCY STOP, LEFT or RIGHT direction.
Is the rate of accelleration/decelleration with the FASTER ad SLOWER buttons adjustable?
I have never been a fan of momentum. Most of them take too long to get moving from zero.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Five simple buttons control the train - FASTER, SLOWER, EMERGENCY STOP, LEFT or RIGHT direction. Is the rate of accelleration/decelleration with the FASTER ad SLOWER buttons adjustable? I have never been a fan of momentum. Most of them take too long to get moving from zero. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Five simple buttons control the train - FASTER, SLOWER, EMERGENCY STOP, LEFT or RIGHT direction.
The TE has an adjustable momentum feature. It is not something you adjust on the fly, but rather a preset acceleration rate you choose when you set up throttle. You can change it later, but not while running trains.
There are five settings.
The "no momentum" setting "A" still provides a smooth acceleration/deceleration curve as you hold the faster/slower buttons down.
I don't use the settings with more delay, I don't like momentum either.
In setting "A" it is like gently turning up the knob on a power pack, it maybe takes 3-4 seconds to go from 0 volts to full output. It provides smooth realistic starts with no real delay with any good running loco.
Same is true when slowing down.
EMERGENCY is like a kill switch.......instant 0 voltage.
I find the rate of acceleration to be perfect to give instant but smooth control.
You can just tap the buttons and move the voltage up or down a step or two, or you hold it and it ramps up, or down.
Another interesting feature - your train is running, you push the opposite direction button. Your train decelerates to zero voltage, the direction changes, and then it accelerates to the previous setting.
Once you learn to use it, this is very useful for switching.
I was a skeptical, I borrowed one from a friend and played with it quite a bit before going down this road. 18 years later I am still very happy with my choice.
I would never go back to a knob, or a throttle full of little buttons......
2ManyHobbeez IDRick I retired at the end of December and just recently found that I was given an award with a nice stipend! Decided, cool, time to get that DCC system that I've wanted and add sound to my locomotives! Woohoo! Nice use for the stipend! My advice is take the rest of that stipend and buy the Lokprogrammer hardware. Play with it for a couple of days. You will have the time of your life and won't go back. George
Do you know how many people told me that 15 years ago? "try it, you won't go back".
I tried it, for hundreds of hours on the layouts of friends, I'm still using DC.
But, I do recommend DCC to new people coming into the hobby.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIn setting "A" it is like gently turning up the knob on a power pack, it maybe takes 3-4 seconds to go from 0 volts to full output. It provides smooth realistic starts with no real delay with any good running loco.
Thanks for the information.
This just makes my want one even more!
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL In setting "A" it is like gently turning up the knob on a power pack, it maybe takes 3-4 seconds to go from 0 volts to full output. It provides smooth realistic starts with no real delay with any good running loco. Thanks for the information. This just makes my want one even more! -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL In setting "A" it is like gently turning up the knob on a power pack, it maybe takes 3-4 seconds to go from 0 volts to full output. It provides smooth realistic starts with no real delay with any good running loco.
Thirty years ago when they first came out, and command control was still a half dozen proprietary systems, and DCC was just being developed, and niether had wireless, it was the cats pajamas, a wireless throttle throttle with great speed control.
The other cool feature, it is full voltage pulse width modulation speed control.
So, all these modern DC constant brightness lighting boards, the lights come on full brightness, typically before the loco moves......kinda like DCC, but without having to push a button.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you know how many people told me that 15 years ago? "try it, you won't go back". I tried it, for hundreds of hours on the layouts of friends, I'm still using DC. But, I do recommend DCC to new people coming into the hobby. Sheldon
Sheldon:
My comment was not meant to be a DC vs DCC comparison. The OP expressed admiration for the capabilities of the LokSound decoder but also frustration with programming it. My suggestion is to consider the LokProgrammer hardware if you find yourself in that situation. To be sure, trying to program a decoder such as this by using the command station, or even DecoderPro will be frustrating and error prone. The LP makes it much easier, much faster, more comprehensive and a lot more fun. Other decoder manufacturers should follow ESU's lead and build their own user-friendly interfaces. Watching a YouTube video where the Soundtraxx guy explains how to tweak one of their decoders using direct CV manipulation makes my head spin.
2ManyHobbeez ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you know how many people told me that 15 years ago? "try it, you won't go back". I tried it, for hundreds of hours on the layouts of friends, I'm still using DC. But, I do recommend DCC to new people coming into the hobby. Sheldon Sheldon: My comment was not meant to be a DC vs DCC comparison. The OP expressed admiration for the capabilities of the LokSound decoder but also frustration with programming it. My suggestion is to consider the LokProgrammer hardware if you find yourself in that situation. To be sure, trying to program a decoder such as this by using the command station, or even DecoderPro will be frustrating and error prone. The LP makes it much easier, much faster, more comprehensive and a lot more fun. Other decoder manufacturers should follow ESU's lead and build their own user-friendly interfaces. Watching a YouTube video where the Soundtraxx guy explains how to tweak one of their decoders using direct CV manipulation makes my head spin. George
Unfortunately, even with a LokProgrammer, the ESU Loksound decoders are by far the most complicated. I would suggest for future projects choose an easier sound decoder, like TCS WowSound decoders (which have a "talk back" programming option) or MRC sound decoders.
Remember too that sound decoders come with factory defaults already set up. You'll want to change the decoder ID number from 03 to your engine's number, but everything else is optional. You can adjust all the sounds and lights if you want, but you don't HAVE to. The defaults will work just fine. When you eventually do want to change something, and start getting into more complicated things, it will be worth it to get something like a Digitrax PR4 so you can connect up a programming track to your PC, and download the free "Decoder Pro" program from JMRI.
Except for needing to find room for a speaker and it's enclosure, installing a sound decoder isn't any harder than installing a non-sound decoder.
I went from running BB engines on DC slot car trigger throttles to a Marnold panel to MRC power packs to Aristo Craft hand held controls to Lentz DCC. The previous HO layout system was all Aristo Craft DC then the Lentz DCC system was added to one quarter of the layout. Now it is totally a Lentz DCC system.
I modified the Aristo Craft controls just a little. I spoke with Mr.Polk a long time ago at TCA shows but he never took my advice on the colored buttons.
Green for ''FAST''
Yellow for ''SLOW''
Blue for ''DIRECTION''
Red for ''EMERGENCY STOP''
Kevin: There are five different degrees of momentum, adjusted by a single different button when setting up the throttle. I prefer the lowest setting. The highest setting was just to slow to react. The emergency stop button sets the power in your block to zero immediately, stopping your train, but not affecting any other cabs. DCC emergency stop stops everthing on layout, very embarassing first time at a new club!
Hope this helps
I run only one train at a time so I opted for the orange Basic Train Engineer, since that's what was available at the time. Bought a second one as a spare, and will keep them both.
As has been said, the lights come on with the first couple of pushes of the "speed step" button before the loco begins to creep slowly after about the fourth push.
With LED headlights, they come on bright, so the loco can sit there in DC with the lights on full brightness at "idle" like many locos do.
It does NOT do well with modern dual mode DC/DCC decoders. So if you want to run onboard sound on DC (and I don't know why you would), the TE is not the throttle for you.
IDRick... but adding sound is challenging for some of them.
What speaker(s) to use, where to cut the frame/body, where to port the sound to, down firing, up firing, how to keep things from vibrating, how to get full frequency response, where to fit crossover capacitors, chokes, and not tangle all the wires.... YIPEs. No surprise it is frustrating to a new person just getting into the noisy part of the hobby.
And I haven't gotten to all those CVs that control all those things on a DCC sound decoder.
If I didsn't like sound I would still use my aristo craft. Surprised some Chinnese company hasn't copied them like so much stuff. I do hav e a dead rail setup by arita that I may use some day, this is the HO version.
davidmurray DCC emergency stop stops everthing on layout, very embarassing first time at a new club!
DCC emergency stop stops everthing on layout, very embarassing first time at a new club!
The Lentz DCC System hand held throttles can be set to
1) Stop only the Loco number shown on the throttle.
2) Stop all the trains on the layout, but keep the layout energized.
3) Shuts down the whole layout. The track is dead.
Texas Zephyr IDRick ... but adding sound is challenging for some of them. and that is the quote of the last three decades or so. It has been challenging to install sound since my first PFM system in 1982. After tens of installs, I still find it challenging with the older locomotives that don't have frames with a precut/premolded location for the speakers. What speaker(s) to use, where to cut the frame/body, where to port the sound to, down firing, up firing, how to keep things from vibrating, how to get full frequency response, where to fit crossover capacitors, chokes, and not tangle all the wires.... YIPEs. No surprise it is frustrating to a new person just getting into the noisy part of the hobby. And I haven't gotten to all those CVs that control all those things on a DCC sound decoder.
IDRick ... but adding sound is challenging for some of them.
and that is the quote of the last three decades or so. It has been challenging to install sound since my first PFM system in 1982. After tens of installs, I still find it challenging with the older locomotives that don't have frames with a precut/premolded location for the speakers.
You can buy a 1/2" by 1" speaker in an enclosure that will fit in pretty much any GP, SD or similar engine's long hood with no modification to the engine needed. "Firing up" and "Firing down" just means the speaker is facing up or down. If you're putting the speaker in the end of the long hood of a diesel, the best way to get the sound out is to install it with the speaker facing down so the sound comes out around the opening for the rear truck.
You don't usually need a capacitor, not sure what a "choke" is (my lawnmower has one, but it's not electric). You can cut the wires short when installing them.
CVs are optional, except I would argue for the engine ID. You can make the horn louder or the bell quieter if you want, but you can leave all the default settings and the decoder works fine.
For any engine built since at least 2000, installing sound means unplugging a dummy plug, plugging in the sound decoder, and connecting two wires from the speaker to the decoder, and putting the engine back together.
A 'choke' is the old name for an inductor (an electrical component like a tiny coil of wire with a magnetic core). Called that in radio because it lets DC through but attenuates higher frequency.
By combining capacitors, inductors, and resistors you can build tuned filter circuits (LRC) and these are useful in building crossover networks that send different frequency ranges of an audio signal to different speaker drivers.
OvermodA 'choke' is the old name for an inductor
A "choke" is the new name for what a Philadelphia sports team does during the season.