I’m retuning to the hobby after last operating a layout as a kid in the 90s, and it’s amazing to see the advancement and change in technology since then. I had the opportunity to recently acquire a neighbor’s layout (faithful recreation of the Jerome & Southwestern, including the Back Alley & Wharf extension, for those who are familiar). It enabled me to get back into the hobby quickly as benchwork, track and much of the scenery was complete. The wiring was removed, originally a conventional DC setup, but I’d like to take the opportunity to re-wire for DCC. I’ve read through this forum, and watched a significant amount of youtube, especially the DCC guy to try to get up to speed but still have lots of questions, including which DCC platform to select. Hoping some of the good forum members here might recommend their preferred DCC platform option, given the following requirements:
Well, the reason all that info hasn't pointed you to a specific system is because - ALL of them can do those requoirements.
It's not even so much the throttle design any more, either - as there is the option of using a smartphone or tablet, or the TCS throttles, or the ESU throttle, or if you want to feel like you're in the cab, the ProtoThrottle. All of which can work with basically any of the available DCC systems, even the DIY ones.
If you want to use repurposes iPads for control panels, then you will need some form of remote control for the turnouts. Why not DCC, since it's already going to be there? The panels on each tablet can work with something like JMRI to control things. Just because the turnouts are controlled by DCC decoders doesn't mean you have to use your DCC throttle - that's probably the worst way to run a layout, if you ask me. No matter what brand of DCC system, its awkward to switch between turnout control and running your train. Even if wanted for dispatcher operation, having some sort of local control near the turnout is much easier to use. If ordinary buttons or taggles are used - then there is no need to connect the turnouts to DCC unless you want to allow for a dispatcher. But if you are using virtual panels on a device, then there needs to be some sort of controller no matter what, and the virtual panel takes the place of the local physical controls.
But yes, the criteria you have outlined can be met by pretty much every current production DCC system. Most even have enough power to run 3-4 simultaneous HO sound locos right out of the box, no additional boosters needed.
Got any more requirements or desired features that might point to one brand over another?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Depends on what you like. I like Digitrax because it feels like old school but can do what the others do, I like the knobs for control, NCE is you like the wheels for control.
Actually, NCE has both buttons and encoder wheel on the throttle for speed control.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
ANd Digitrax has aknob and buttons. I just don't know anyone who controls the speed on Digitrax with the buttons though. Half the time I don't even remember they're there.
rrebell Depends on what you like. I like Digitrax because it feels like old school but can do what the others do, I like the knobs for control, NCE is you like the wheels for control.
tstage Actually, NCE has both buttons and encoder wheel on the throttle for speed control.
Rich
Alton Junction
His requirement for 2 wireless throttles means the OP is thinking about multiple operators, or he has more hands and heads than the rest of us.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Hello All,
When deciding to convert from DC to DCC I went with a dead-end system; only a limited amount of expansion available.
Knowing what I now know I would have gone with the NCE DCC system.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
As noted, most any of the DCC systems out there will allow you to do all that. Only thing I'd say from my experience is I started in DCC with Digitrax, and it was fine until I tried adding wireless radio control. It was very sketchy, not much better than 'line of sight' infrared.
I eventually switched to CVP's "Easy DCC" system, and have been very impressed with their wireless system. A nice part about CVP is you can adjust the amount of power used by the walkaround unit to transmit the signal, so can fine-tune it to your layout area's needs. Note that only sell direct, so unfortunately you can't go see their stuff at the LHS.
http://www.cvpusa.com/easydcc_system.php
Big Daddy wrote: "His requirement for 2 wireless throttles means the OP is thinking about multiple operators, or he has more hands and heads than the rest of us."
I run my (small) railroad each night about 10pm, then come back upstairs to check on the forum.
How's this for "2 wireless throttles":
Might as well have them running side-by-side on one tablet, right?
I normally run 2 engines at once this way. But I can get 3 engines going simultaneously for a short while, sometimes even 4 for a short time -- all controlled from this one display. (Roco z21 app) Takes only 1 second to scroll through the list at the bottom (about 25 engines), tap another, and take it over...
I don't use DCC at home, but I have used most of the various brands on the layouts of others.
My first choice is with Stix, I would buy CVP EasyDCC. The owner of that company helped invent DCC as we know it today......
NCE would be my second choice, Digitrax would not be on my list, I can't stand that throttle.
Also not on my list, any kind of phone or tablet app.......
Two trains at once? Not me. Unless they are on deticated loops of track, for that you don't need DCC......
Sheldon
I have said before that the only way I would consider DCC was if I had to start over from scratch.
Then I would build a G scale around-the-walls switching layout powered by a single GP7 or GP9. It would have MASSIVE speakers on board, and controlled with one of these.
Running a train like this seems very appealing to me.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
In reality you need to know what you want. Digitrax is much cheaper if you need basic stuff. If you want to go radio controled, then that is another matter. Only reason I went DCC for my smallish layout was sound, much easier than DC. Cheaper in the fact that my whole system 4 panels, 2 throttles, 1 master older DCS 51 bought used, all else new for less than $300 including cables and all but the master bought at a real hobby store, master bought on e-bay.
LastspikemikeJust a reminder that G is a reference to track gauge rather than model scale.
And for something like 75 years it had another name - Number 1 gauge! Unfortunately when LGB hit the US in the early '70's No.1 gauge was largely forgotten and people started calling it "G". I suppose it's just like baseball pitching - the 'forkball' became the 'split finger' and the 'palmball' became a 'circle change'.
LastspikemikeThere seems to be a bit of a mystique about the perceived differences between DCC and DC. A layout wired for DC can be pretty much just connected to DCC instead of the DC powerpack. Ironically, the more complex the DC wiring you have the trickier it can get. DCC is easier to wire.
Exactly right! I think people read about all the options DCC has, with setting CVs and such, and think it's this super-complex deal when it's really the opposite.
The advent of the real throttles that use WiFi, like the TCS UWT-100 and UWT-50, negate a lot of the feature differences between DCC systems. Yu have a knob throttle, and you have a thumbwheel and button throttle that work on nearly every DCC system.
One example - something NCE definitely does better than Digitrax is consisting. But the UWT throttles have an in-throttle consisting that is at least as good as NCE and potentially even better. And the UWT can work on Digitrax or most any other brand as well.
AFter reading up on the latest Easy-DCC offerings - sorry, but no thanks. They seem trapped in the past on the command station side. While it might seem simple when operating as a guest on someone's layout and they just hand you a throttle and tell you to run your train, what goes on behind the scenes makes Digitrax seem easy (which is is - and the complex throttle operations are LONG in the past). The idea of setting up the throttle by the layout owner and handing it to an operator who has to do nothing but turn the speed knob and change direction can be done on most any system. If a Digitrax or NCE layout owner or the operator acting as the engine yard hostler doesn't just hand you a throttle for your assigned Extra 602 East, that's not a system issue, that's a "how I run my railroad" issue. On ANY common DCC system, there's no need for a road crew operator to have to know how to select locos and create consists.
Consisting for example. Easy-DCC does a command station consisting like Digitrax (but the manual cautions you to not create many consists this way because system performance suffers - mainly in terms of command lags). And it also does CV19 Advanced Consisting - but it's straight up CV19, not the enahanced mode the NCE uses. So you ALSO have to program CV21 and CV22 to control which functions get activated in a consist. You may think this has no bearing if you don;t use sound - but there is always the headlight. Don't want the ehadlight coming on on the middle loco, do you? In addition, NCE automatically assigns a consist address, CVP requires you to remember which consist numbers you used. ANd only uses 1-99.
That's just the start. CVP's address scheme means consist 50 will interfere with loco 50. NCE allows address 50 to be a long OR short address, so you cna have a loco 50 and a consist 50 and they are not the same thing - plus the actual consist number on NCE is hidden from the operator. If you happen to model the L&HR, you've whacked 29 of the available consist numbers in CVP. (L&HR diesels were numbered 1-29)
And hooking up the system - holy wire standards, Batman! Some connections need data-oriented RJ cables. Some need telephone oriented RJ cables, and some need RG-58/59 coax cables. NCE has 2 different sets of connections, one for the command station to boosters and one for throttles, but they both use data orientation (and different connectors). Digitrax has one system network cable that is both the throttle and booster bus. All data wired - one type of cable and connector for the entire layout.
Now where you get past the command station - CVP has updated their booster and they are some of the nicest design boosters I've seen. And the interesting part is they are 100% out of the box compatible with Digitrax (according tot he CVP web site), and will work with NCE and Lenz with some possible cable customization.
There is sort of no such thing as a full feature throttle with CVP - only the command station console can be used to create and manage consists. The 'full feature' wireless throttle does seem pretty nice, click endoer for easy one-handed operations - spin for speed, click to change direction. The new 'operator' throttle is a pot and has a dedicated direction button.
Digitrax recently changed their throttles, two all-new designs for the full feature and the smaller operator throttle.
Wish some media source, or reseller of multiple brands, woudl get an ACCURATE comparison chart. Every one I've seen has errors, and also errors of ommission by not explaining what a feature actually is. Best example - on some systems, the "recall" is how you switch from one running loco to another. On others, like Digitrax, the 'recall' is nothing more than autocomplete.
ANd of the three - EasyDCC, NCE< and Digitrax - Digitrax is the ONLY one that does not require unique IDs on each throttle. Maybe not an issue if you supply all throttles used on your layout, you'll do it once and it's all set forever, but if people bring their own, and operate on multiple layouts - you need to keep track of throttle IDs so you can make sure there are no conflicts. Complete non-issue with Digitrax.
Or forego it all and just use WiFi throttles instead of the proprietary ones. Though that does bring its own set of issues with what sort of router/access point you use and how many throttles it can actually support at the same time.
Randy, thanks that was interesting, at least for as much interest as I have in the subject.
Years ago CVP had what I thought was the best wireless throttle. And I actually like the command station console. But I get it.
This is part of the bigger picture of why I don't care for DCC, I like the tactile and visual nature of traditional controls.
Many years ago now I designed a layout for a friend, a basement filling layout, and helped build it. He used Digitrax and wired all the turnouts to stationary decoders and did not have control panels of any kind - I never did get comfortable operating that layout.
Later he admitted the turnout control was a mistake and added local buttons.
He never installed CTC or signaling so the decoder control of the turnouts was used less and less.
That layout is gone now, he moved into a retirement living situation and sold his big house in the rural suburbs - I get moving to a smaller house, we did that, but the retirement community thing.................... not me.
Every layout is different, every operating scheme is different, but I like control panels.
I hate trying to remeber numbers, or button sequences, or reading small displays - it sucks all the fun out for me.
So CVP may not be the choice it once was, but I guess that too depends on your needs and goals.
That's been my position all along - not one brand of DCC system makes flipping turnouts by the DCC throttle convenient. The only reason I did it (new layout, I am building my own CMRI for CTC control) was to enable setting up panels in JMRI for dispatcher control. Operator control was by a more standard pushbutton on the fascia. In fact, I didn't WANT people changing turnouts from the throttle - and with Digitrax that's actual easy to accomplish, there is a command station setting that makes it ignore switch commands from throttles. So either you press the fascia button, or the dispatcher lines you.
The second point - it is entirely possible, as I said, for the engineer to be handed a throttle and all you would need to do is turn the knob to drive the train. Select a loco? na. Program it? No way should an operator at an operating session be programming locos. You should be able to just take the offerend throttle and run trains the same way you do with a walkaround DC throttle. Now on the backend, the owner of the layout has to do a little homework to make it this simple for the guests. But really, it doesn't have to be difficult for the non-DCC user. We do this at the club - some members do not have DCC at home - many don't even have any sort of layout. The only palce they get to run trains is when we have a show somewhere, so it's been a while for them. As such, they get maybe 5-10 hours of hands on throttle time in a year. So someone sets up a throttle connected to their train and hands it to them, and all they need to do it turn the knob and watch the signals. Seems to work.
Like you, I also returned to the hobby after several decades and liked the DCC path. I'm also hoping to bring in grandkids one day, just like I bonded with my grandpa over trains, so ease of use and robustness was important for my selection. Kids will continue to use advanced technology, so I chose a system which is fun, robust, intuitive and can be operated by responsible kids.
There are several good systems which meet your requirements, so good news is you have choices.
I run my DCC system using Z21; iPhone/Android for throttles for all operators (they can bring their own and we upload the locos); an iPad for all turnouts; and a large screen TV for cameras on board the locos. I like the iPhone Z21 app as different functions is configured behind icons, like whistle, bell, brakes, coupling, lights, etc. Also, you select locos from images, which make it easy and quick to pick a new loco to control. The same app can also handle turnouts, but I find the small screen limited for any larger layout, so I use a separate large iPad for all turnouts instead.
Z21 can also use traditional wired and wireless throttles, but I have not felt a need for any so far.
Z21 come in a starter kit (z21) and a pro kit (Z21). I went with the pro kit, since I wanted to have some of the higher end features like separate programming track and some of the bi-directional buses.
rrinker The advent of the real throttles that use WiFi, like the TCS UWT-100 and UWT-50, negate a lot of the feature differences between DCC systems. Yu have a knob throttle, and you have a thumbwheel and button throttle that work on nearly every DCC system. One example - something NCE definitely does better than Digitrax is consisting. But the UWT throttles have an in-throttle consisting that is at least as good as NCE and potentially even better. And the UWT can work on Digitrax or most any other brand as well.
The TCS throttle via WiFi is the solution I am planning to go to. I have had a Digitrax Chief system for many years but the operatoin and consisting has never really "clicked" for me. But rather than toss it or sell it, I'm going to get the WiFi adaptor for it and use TCS throttles. The WiFi adaptor digitrax sells can only support 4 WiFi throttls but that will probably be enough for me and if I need more than 4 simultanious throttles, I can expand it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
You might want to look at this:
https://mstevetodd.com/rpi
Cheaper or no more than the LNWI, if you already have a Locobuffer-USB or PR3/4 to use, and out of the box it will support 8 and theoretically as many as 32 wifi connections using the internal wifi.
Nice thing about M. Steve Todd's image with JMRI is it can autodetect which interface you are using for which DCC system and sets itself up. And if you tranfer your interface device to the Pi, you can still access the JMRI from your computer to use DecoderPro.
I really need to check out a UWT and see if I like it, because this would be the way I go as well if the throttle is that good. Need in person train shows to come back.