Last year I installed decoders in a pair of C-liners I had purchased online. I put a Loksound 5 decoder in one but since these are going to be permanently MUed, I just put a basic Digitrax decoder in the other. The problem is the cheap decoder starts up immediately while the Loksound has a delayed start. I can hear the wheels spinning on the loco with the cheap deoder. This only lasts a second or two before both start to move.
My question is if I will risk damage to either the decoders or motors if I continue to operate like this. Also, I've done very little with modifying CVs although I have a little experience. Is there a CV I can modify that would bring the two decoders into sync?
On real diesels, generally the motor revs up before the engine starts to move. With sound decoders, it is often desireable to reproduce that by setting the CVs to delay the engine's beginning to move until the engine sound revs up. I suspect that the Loksound decoder comes set that way.
CV2 controls the amount of power the motor gets at speed step 1. On the engine that's starting too soon, make sure CV2 is zero.
CV3 is the starting momentum. It controls how long it takes the motor to get up to speed. On the engine that is starting to move too soon, try setting CV3 to something other than zero. I'd suggest maybe start with 10, if it still starts too soon, increase it to 20, etc. until they both start together.
CV4 works the same way, only for stopping. If the engine that starts too soon also stops before the other, increasing the amount in CV4 will help it coast to a stop at the same rate as the other engine.
CV5 controls the top speed of the engines. If the engines don't run at exactly the same rate, you can decrease CV5 on the faster one to slow it down until it's top speed is the same as the slower engine.
These CVs are (with a very very few exceptions) the same on all decoders, sound and non-sound alike.
John-NYBW I put a Loksound 5 decoder in one but since these are going to be permanently MUed, I just put a basic Digitrax decoder in the other.
I got around this by installing a LokPilot decoder in the quiet unit.
The LokPilot can be programmed in what I believe ESU called a "virtual sound mode" which allows you to select a startup delay to match the delay in the sound decoder.
The nice thing about this setup is that if you mute the sound using F8, the delay is disabled on both decoders.
It takes a bit of function mapping to set the LokPilot decoder to use this feature. I have a Lokprogrammer and figured out how to do it through that interface so I didn't directly set the CVs.
I'll see if I can remember where I found the information for setting this up on the LokPilot.
You can, of course, disable the startup delay on the LokSound decoder but that removes what I believe is a nice feature.
Regards, Ed
Great info. Thanks. I'll give it a try.
gmpullmanThe LokPilot can be programmed in what I believe ESU called a "virtual sound mode" which allows you to select a startup delay to match the delay in the sound decoder.
Mike
I may have picked up the information HERE. But it was a while ago and I don't recall every step of the process.
If you search Lokpilot virtual sound you might find more info.
I reloaded many of my ESU decoders to use the FT or Full Throttle function and the LokPilot decoder will play along with the Full Throttle features.
Good Luck, Ed
Rather than switch decoders, the OP could turn off the startup delay
13.2. Prime mover startup delayUsually, when the sound is idling and you turn up the throttle,the locomotives begins to move only after the Diesel engine hasreached notch 1. A steam loco will even release its brakes first andfill the cylinders. Although this behavior is very prototypically, onemight not like it because it causes some delay.
You can disable this startup delay by simply deleting bit 3 of CV124. This will cause the LokSound decoder to immediately startmoving when the throttle is turned up. However, the start upsound will not be synchonized with the motion anymore.
Delete bit 3. Now isn't that helpful? As best I can tell from the Lokprogrammer software for a EMD 567 it means changing CV 124 to 16.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Water Level Route gmpullman The LokPilot can be programmed in what I believe ESU called a "virtual sound mode" which allows you to select a startup delay to match the delay in the sound decoder. I did this in a pair of F units and for whatever reason never could get the LokPilot to do the virtual sound mode delay to match the LokSound. I ended up having to turn off that option on the LokSound.
gmpullman The LokPilot can be programmed in what I believe ESU called a "virtual sound mode" which allows you to select a startup delay to match the delay in the sound decoder.
I did this in a pair of F units and for whatever reason never could get the LokPilot to do the virtual sound mode delay to match the LokSound. I ended up having to turn off that option on the LokSound.
Did you use the Lokpilot or Lokpilot Basic? The Basic does not have the delay option.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BigDaddy Rather than switch decoders, the OP could turn off the startup delay 13.2. Prime mover startup delayUsually, when the sound is idling and you turn up the throttle,the locomotives begins to move only after the Diesel engine hasreached notch 1. A steam loco will even release its brakes first andfill the cylinders. Although this behavior is very prototypically, onemight not like it because it causes some delay. You can disable this startup delay by simply deleting bit 3 of CV124. This will cause the LokSound decoder to immediately startmoving when the throttle is turned up. However, the start upsound will not be synchonized with the motion anymore. Delete bit 3. Now isn't that helpful? As best I can tell from the Lokprogrammer software for a EMD 567 it means changing CV 124 to 16.
Delete bit 3 means subtract 8 fromt he current value. With bit mapped CVs like this (and like CV29) you really can't say "just make it XX" (although CV29 only has a limited number of values that actually make sense). Easiest way to do this if you've forgotten other base math from somewhere around middle school, or were never taught it, is to use the Windows calculator in programmer mode. Read the CV, get the current value. Put it in the calculator in decimal. In programmer mode it also shows hex, octal, and binary. Look at the binary. Bits are counted from the right, starting with 0, so bit 3 is the 4th bit from the right. If you switch to binary in the calculator, you can enter the same number, using just 1 and 0, excpt instead of entering a 1 for bit 3, enter a 0. In decimal it will show the new value to put in the CV.
That works for ANY CV where they say "turn bit x on (or off)" rather than assuming a certain value is in there and changing it to some absolute that may enable or disable other features along with the one you are actually trying to control.
Or you can remember the decimal value of every bit, and add up all the values where the bit is set to 1. Since 0 is 0. That's also really quite easy, simple addition, really, though to determine the value for a bit it's exponents.
The value of a given bit is simple 2 to the power of whatever bit it is. So bit 0 has a value of 1. Bit 3 has a value of 2^3, 2x2x2 = 8. CVs are only 8 bit, so you only have bits 0-7 - bit 7 is 2^7 or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2 or 128.
Example: suppose reading the documentation says, for the optiosn you want, you need to set or enable bits 2, 5 and 7. So that looks like 10100100 in binary, Or really, you can skip the binary representations. The total value to put in the CV would be 2^2 + 2^5 + 2^7 or 2x2 + 2x2x2x2x2 + 2x2x2x2x2x2x2 or 4 + 32 + 128 = 164. Just take the bit number, multiple 2 that many times itself for each bit. Then add the total.
Homework: I want to enable features on my decoder that say to set CV193 bit 6 on, bit 4 on, bit 2 on, and bit 1 on. What is the value for the CV? Correct answer posted after I see some replies.
Do this once or twice and it will be real easy to figure out next time.
rrinkerThe value of a given bit is simple 2 to the power of whatever bit it is. So bit 0 has a value of 1. Bit 3 has a value of 2^3, 2x2x2 = 8.
rrinker Homework: I want to enable features on my decoder that say to set CV193 bit 6 on, bit 4 on, bit 2 on, and bit 1 on. What is the value for the CV? Correct answer posted after I see some replies.
Alton Junction
rrinkerDid you use the Lokpilot or Lokpilot Basic? The Basic does not have the delay option.
I don't recall there being a LokPilot Basic when I installed these, so I'm pretty sure I've got the regular LokPilot, but can't confirm at the moment. I also don't have a LokProgrammer. At this point, the engines run together, albeit with an annoying sound speed ramp up. I've messed with them three times, and until I get JMRI hooked up, I'm done. The second time through trying to adjust these, following the instructions that the LokProgrammer software was telling me, one of the locomotives with the Loksound did not catch whatever I was attempting at the time and now the headlight shuts off every time the loco stops and turns back on as soon as it sees throttle re-applied. The other Loksound (sister A/B pair of F3's) burns the headlight steady until the engine is put in reverse. It was given the same set of instructions. I give up.
Sorry John-NYBW. Not trying to hijack your thread.
Given the OP says he has very little experience adjusting CVs, wouldn't it be easier for him just to adjust CV3 on the Digitrax decoder to delay that engine's start time until it matches the other engine (and make sure CV2 is zero)? I've done that to some of my engines so they match my ESU engines and it works fine.
I appreciate all the helpful advice. Just to let everybody know where I'm coming from, total realism is not that important to me. It doesn't matter to me if there is a delay between the power up sound and the engine moving. In fact I prefer to have my locos start and stop immediately in response to the throttle. I'd rather use my own touch on the throttle to realistically start and stop my locos. A few of my locos have settings which do a gradual stop which I find annoying. I put in a WOW sound decoder last year and it required the brake to be applied seperately from the throttle down. If you didn't, the loco would coast to a stop. At top speed it took about 20 feet (HO scale) to come to a stop. That function can be disabled but for some reason it seems to keep defaulting back to this setting.
I'm getting close the the point where my layout will be reaonably complete and I can commence full scale operations. Once I reach that point, maybe I'll start looking into some of the more advanced functions which DCC offers but for now I just want my locos to start and stop in response to the throttle and I want to get the two C-liners on the same page so they start and stop together.
Water Level Route rrinker Did you use the Lokpilot or Lokpilot Basic? The Basic does not have the delay option. Randy, you are such a good guy. Seriously. You tried helping me with it the last time I worked on this. You may or may not recall I am also having issues with the LokSound reaching notch 8 for sound at speed step 48, and occasionally running up to notch 8 sound with the engine stopping/stopped. That started after I ratcheted down the speed CV's so the engines would run slower. It was fine before then. I don't recall there being a LokPilot Basic when I installed these, so I'm pretty sure I've got the regular LokPilot, but can't confirm at the moment. I also don't have a LokProgrammer. At this point, the engines run together, albeit with an annoying sound speed ramp up. I've messed with them three times, and until I get JMRI hooked up, I'm done. The second time through trying to adjust these, following the instructions that the LokProgrammer software was telling me, one of the locomotives with the Loksound did not catch whatever I was attempting at the time and now the headlight shuts off every time the loco stops and turns back on as soon as it sees throttle re-applied. The other Loksound (sister A/B pair of F3's) burns the headlight steady until the engine is put in reverse. It was given the same set of instructions. I give up. Sorry John-NYBW. Not trying to hijack your thread.
rrinker Did you use the Lokpilot or Lokpilot Basic? The Basic does not have the delay option.
Randy, you are such a good guy. Seriously. You tried helping me with it the last time I worked on this. You may or may not recall I am also having issues with the LokSound reaching notch 8 for sound at speed step 48, and occasionally running up to notch 8 sound with the engine stopping/stopped. That started after I ratcheted down the speed CV's so the engines would run slower. It was fine before then.
The key with Loksound and trying ot use the Lokprogrammer software without the hardware to figure out CVs is that you absolutely must load the EXACT project that is in your decoder - Loksound literally can map ANY f-key to ANY function. And the table of CVs used to map that can be in ANY order. Meaning in one project, the settings for F0 for the headlight might be the first row in the table, but in another project, it could be the 8th row in the table. This is what I suspect happened - you had the correct value for the CV, only the row you canged it in on your loco was the headlight control row, where that value of the CV sets the condition to "loco moving" so now the headlight is only on if the loco is moving.
IF the programmer saved the defaults, resetting the decoder would put the functions back the way they were.
Hi there. Speed matching does not need to be perfect, but spinning wheels is definitely not within my acceptable range.
This is what I do, and perhaps Stix can correct me. First, I find the instructions to find out what are the defaults and ranges of the CVs. CVs 2, 5 and 6 control the voltage levels at three points (slow, fast, medium). I start by matching the low speed using CV2. Make sure that the fastest loco is at 0. Then increase CV2 of the slowest loco until it matches the other one. Matching means that they should be at the same speed at the same point in the dial, say 20% of the dial for CV2. The easy way to do this is to give both engines the same adress, put them at 3 inches apart on the layout, turn on the dial, and see if the distance stays more or less constant as they go down the track.
Then I match the mid-point, which is CV6, ideally at the mid-point in the dial. Some do CV5 first (top speed), then do CV6 (mid point) after.
Simon
rrinker Homework: I want to enable features on my decoder that say to set CV193 bit 6 on, bit 4 on, bit 2 on, and bit 1 on. What is the value for the CV? Correct answer posted after I see some replies. Do this once or twice and it will be real easy to figure out next time. --Randy
I also come up with a value of 86
OK, since this was a bit of a thread hijack - yes, 86 is the value, you are both correct. See, not too hard, is it?
snjroy Hi there. Speed matching does not need to be perfect, but spinning wheels is definitely not within my acceptable range. This is what I do, and perhaps Stix can correct me. First, I find the instructions to find out what are the defaults and ranges of the CVs. CVs 2, 5 and 6 control the voltage levels at three points (slow, fast, medium). I start by matching the low speed using CV2. Make sure that the fastest loco is at 0. Then increase CV2 of the slowest loco until it matches the other one. Matching means that they should be at the same speed at the same point in the dial, say 20% of the dial for CV2. The easy way to do this is to give both engines the same adress, put them at 3 inches apart on the layout, turn on the dial, and see if the distance stays more or less constant as they go down the track. Then I match the mid-point, which is CV6, ideally at the mid-point in the dial. Some do CV5 first (top speed), then do CV6 (mid point) after. Simon
Problem is, in this case the issue is not cause by speed matching, but by the loco start delay feature of Loksound decoders which allows the prime mover to rev up a bit even without high momentum settings. No amount of speed matching will get this to work with some other brand motor only decoder. The easiest thing is to turn it off in the Loksound decoder, and then you can do any other speed matching if needed.
In practice, it gives a nice feel to the operation - a real loco, even light, doesn't just leap when the throttle is opened, and it isn't the same as the momentum delaying the response.
John-NYBWI put in a WOW sound decoder last year and it required the brake to be applied seperately from the throttle down. If you didn't, the loco would coast to a stop. At top speed it took about 20 feet (HO scale) to come to a stop. That function can be disabled but for some reason it seems to keep defaulting back to this setting.
Just set CV4 to zero. Wowsound decoders come with CV4 - stopping momentum - set to like 90. With it that high, you have to hit the brake function button several times to get the engine to stop. Setting CV4 to about 30 allows you to stop it with one touch. Setting it to zero makes the engine stop as soon as you turn the throttle to zero.
Everyone has their own way of doing things, but I find (and I think a lot of folks agree) that a little starting and stopping momentum is good - it kinda smooths out the starts and stops. Even just setting CV3 and 4 to say 10 makes a difference but still keeps the engine starting and stopping like you want it to.
Yeah, I do my own momentum... So I basically set it at zero. I also set the BEMF to zero. Some of my steamers go haywire with some BEMF. I should add that BEMF is not useful on my layout as I have zero inclines.
BEMF can also cause trouble with 'bucking'. Say you have a two-engine consist and both engines have Back EMF. If the first engine starts trying to move just before the other one, it will ramp up power thinking it's trying to pull a really heavy train. The second engine then reads that like it's going downhill, and will try to slow down...causing the first engine to apply even more power.
As far as speed-matching methods, what I do is use a "golden engine" and match all my engines to it. I put the engine I want to speed match as the lead engine in a consist with the golden engine, then use CV5 to adjust the new engine so it's running speed matches the golden engine at all speed ranges. Then I use CV3 and 4 so the new engine starts and stops along with the golden one. I usually only use CV2 if an engine is a little 'stiff' and has a long starting delay that needs to be corrected. Since I only use straight-line speeds I usually don't use CV6.
I could only find the boxes for two of the three Loksound 5 decoders I bought last year. My memory is that all three were the 58821 Loksound 5 decoder with different sounds preprogrammed for eacy. Below is are the labels that was on the one box.
Label 1
58821
Loksound 5 DCC Direct
Ready for Programming
Label 2
Baldwin 608A
S0580
The second label told me which loco the decoder was programmed for since I ordered decoders for 3 different locos at the same time.
They were delivered with the the sound preprogrammed. If I remember right, I ordered these from Tony's Train Xchange. I'd have to go back through my emails from a year ago to confirm that. I used twin sugar cube speakers which were recommended when I ordered the decoder. I don't recall that finding space for them was difficult.
If this did come from Tony's (and I'm 90% sure it was), I'm sure they can tell you anything else you would need to know. They were very helpful with me.
Lastspikemike Many thanks. I have eight of these and only one B unit has an ESU motor only decoder installed. I'd love to fit sound also, at least to the A units. I found the year old thread where you posted your original experience. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/282200.aspx
Many thanks. I have eight of these and only one B unit has an ESU motor only decoder installed. I'd love to fit sound also, at least to the A units.
I found the year old thread where you posted your original experience.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/282200.aspx
I'm a cold weather modeler so I am only modeling half the year. I have a hard time remembering what I wrote the previous year. Now I'm a little confused about the labels on the Loksound boxes I found. I see now that I did order the Loksound for both C-Liners and after I fried the one decoder I decided to go with a basic decoder for the second, hence the mismatch problem. I'm a little confused by the labels on the boxes now. I'm wondering why Tony's labeled the one as a Baldwin when the C-Liner is a Fairbanks-Morse. I can't think of any Baldwin diesels in my fleet so I think that is the one they sent me for the C-Liners. The other box I found was for an Alco and that was for one of my RS-1s.
Unfortunately, the only FM sound Loksound has right now is a 38D-6 from the H12-44. No 8, 10, or 12 cylinder versions for the C-liners or other FM locos. I want to swap out the QSI in my Trainmaster, but until thy get a recording of a correct sound, nope.
rrinker Unfortunately, the only FM sound Loksound has right now is a 38D-6 from the H12-44. No 8, 10, or 12 cylinder versions for the C-liners or other FM locos. I want to swap out the QSI in my Trainmaster, but until thy get a recording of a correct sound, nope.
Both of my Atlas TrainMasters have Loksound decoders that I downloaded with the sound project for the Atlas H-15-44/H-16-44. If/when they come out with a true TrainMaster project I'll load that on there, but for now I'm quite happy with the sound. (Please scroll down a ways after you click on the link.)
http://projects.esu.eu/projectoverviews/6?page=4&count=10&order=date&type=diesel&country=us&cat=6
Ignorance is bliss. I have no idea what any of the first generation diesels sounded like so they all seem authentic to me.
I've ridden behind several first and second gen diesels, and observed others (not when they were in their prime - I'm not quite that old) and I've had cab rides in second gen diesels. Lucky there are lots of tourist lines to visit not far from me. While blindfolded I probably couldn't really tell a 567 from a 645, I can definitely tell the difference between an EMD and an Alco. Never heard a working FM or Baldwin in person, but I have seen sound films and video of at least Baldwins working, so I know what they sound like.
Even if they don't have the exact sound - just lookign at two vastly different locos from different builders, you would have to think they must sound somewhat different, so loading a standard EMD sound onto every loco you have, be it an EMD, Alco, FM, or whatever, wouldn't even be close to a good illusion. For those that don't know, if the Alcos which look different have a different sound than ther EMDs, even if neither is truly the correct sound, at least that retains the illusion that they indeed are different locos. And in the case of some Alcos and Baldwins, you might be able to get away with saying they were EMD repowers...
Since I only hear one at a time, it's wouldn't be real obvious even if they did sound the same. However the C-Liner with the sound decoder defintely has a different sound than the Alcos or the EMDs. Most of my diesel fleet are EMD E and F units. My Alcos are a mix of RS1s and RS3s but I only have sound in the one Alco at this time. As I said earlier, it's not that important to me if the sounds are authentic or not simply because I don't know what is and is not correct. As long as my diesels go beep and my steamers whistle and the steamers have synchronized chuff, that's as realistic as I need it to be. I'll leave it to others to fret over whether their locos have the correct sounds.
EMDs were all valved 2 stroke (exhaust valves only) until the 265/1010 series 4-stroke on the SD90MAC and SD70ACe.
Another big difference with Baldwins is that many used a stepless air throttle - so no set of 8 distinct notches.
A real recording of a running big FM diesel would be great - perhaps look to marine sources if a suitable locomotive is not available. At least one manufacturer's pre-567 EMC is recorded from a tugboat which had the perhaps the last operating Winton diesels.
One of the reasons I use Loksound is because of they do go out and grab an actual loco where a stand-in was previously used, I can swap it in without taking apart the model or removing anything. Theoretically this capability is coming to WOWSound at some point, but Soundtraxx seems firmly in the "you get what you get" camp.