SeeYou190People that can help with DC are getting harder and harder to find
This really makes me miss my dad, who knew it all. May he rest eternally within earshot of a steam whistle.
And after this discussion, I've got my solution. I'm going to move my family into the basement -- we can sleep on cots -- and I'm going to take over one bedroom for a DC layout and another one for a DCC layout.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
crossthedog I'm not sure that "without help" is important; if I've learned anything in life it's that I'm not going far without asking for and accepting help from others.
In this case, DCC is surely the way to go for the final operation system.
People that can help with DC are getting harder and harder to find, and we are very much stuck in the "my way of doing it" mode.
On the other hand, helpful people with DCC knowledge are easy to find, and generally offer very good advice when you encounter trouble, if you know who to tune out.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
What about a DC layout with electrically isolated blocks? (DPDT to every block)
Guys, thank you again. This very specific, focused input is helping.
Mike, it occurs to me to ask how I would lay a single loop of bus wire (is it a loop?) under every piece of track when the layout is actually a folded dogbone.
Lastspikemike Yes. Run a pair of bus wires under every piece of track. ..You'll want to connect power feeders at fairly frequent intervals to connect power in addition to the conduction at rail joiners. Duplicating the path of the rails with two bus wires accomplishes that.
Yes. Run a pair of bus wires under every piece of track. ..You'll want to connect power feeders at fairly frequent intervals to connect power in addition to the conduction at rail joiners. Duplicating the path of the rails with two bus wires accomplishes that.
I'm assuming this means just going around the perimeter of the layout underneath. It's basically a fat L but the loop folds under itself. I wouldn't "follow" the tracks would I?
Kevin, your Bridgemaster's Questions Three helped a lot.
SeeYou190 is it your intention to eventually convert to DCC? This is my system to decide whether or not DCC is right for you... ask yourself these three quesitons: 1) Do you understand DC wiring well enough to install and troubleshoot it without help? 2) Do you already own a substantial number of DC locomotives? 3) Can you live without sound? Unless you can answer "YES" to ALL THREE questions, you should plan to switch over to DCC.
is it your intention to eventually convert to DCC?
This is my system to decide whether or not DCC is right for you... ask yourself these three quesitons:
1) Do you understand DC wiring well enough to install and troubleshoot it without help?
2) Do you already own a substantial number of DC locomotives?
3) Can you live without sound?
Unless you can answer "YES" to ALL THREE questions, you should plan to switch over to DCC.
Yes, I can see myself converting entirely to DCC someday. I already have the NCE Power Cab Starter Set and one wonderful SP&S RS-3 loco -- Atlas YB with DCC added, a real sweetie -- but I also have several old DC locos (not zillions) and I like them. I can live without sound. But I DO NOT have an intuitive understanding of electronics and I get confused easily. I'm not sure that "without help" is important; if I've learned anything in life it's that I'm not going far without asking for and accepting help from others. Still, your practical, recommendation is a useful starting point. I CAN live with just one engine running on the mainline and maybe some switching on a branch/spur.
More anon, I'm sure.
Thanks,
crossthedogI don't envision running more than one train on my mainline at a time in DC, and I don't have room for a yard, but I have some industry spurs so to answer Randy's question, it would be nice to be able to do a little local switching - or park locos
Question... is it your intention to eventually convert to DCC?
So, if you will eventually switch to DCC, I would suggest you wire the layout for one DC cab, and just run one train at a time. Install SPST on/off switches on any spur or other track where you will want to park a locomotive/train.
Then when you switch to DCC, you will most likely just need to hook up the DCC system to where the DC power pack was, turn all the switches on, and you should be good to go.
Thanks guys,
It will take me a while to reread and absorb all this. There seem to be myriad factors, each one affecting everything else, so how about we start with one simpler question: would running bus wires around under the entire layout to serve feeder wires from above be a good starting point for both DC and DCC, no matter how many locos I want to run in DC or DCC?
I have already drilled holes for bus wiring in the crossbeams that span L-girder to L-girder, just because I thought I'd be wanting to add bus wires. Now I'm not sure what I need, but now would be the time to do that.
I don't envision running more than one train on my mainline at a time in DC, and I don't have room for a yard, but I have some industry spurs so to answer Randy's question, it would be nice to be able to do a little local switching - or park locos -- on a long spur while running a longer train on the mainline, so I can see where isolating a few blocks would be useful (if, Randy, I understood your suggestion correctly). And I assume that's what LastSpikeMike meant by "multiple cab DC block control".
And I think I'm going to use the single-plug method of switching from DC to DCC that was mentioned earlier. I posted a rough of my layout plan earlier today on the General form and it's been moved to the Layouts forum if that helps.
I had thought this was going to be easier to understand. :/
Thanks again,
crossthedog I'm seeing videos and articles that say that the way I wire my layout depends on whether I'm running DC or DCC. Yet this very thread is about just using one wiring scheme on the layout and simply throwing a switch between power sources.
When Randy and I started his NORFOLK SOUTHERN N scale layout, the intention was to switch the layout over to "Command Control" when that became practical in N scale. We started the layout in 1992 I believe.
The layout was wired for three-cab mainline DC operation, and a fourth cab for the main yard. All electrical blocks could be controlled by "Cab A".
When the time came to switch the layout to command control, all blocks would be set to Cab A with the power turned on, and the command control station would be hooked to the Cab A input. All other power packs would be removed.
So, you can build a layout for DC operation, then if it is designed properly, it can be converted to DCC easily in the future. It just takes some planning.
Typically, a layout that is designed from the Get-Go for DCC will have much simpler wiring from the beginning.
It can potentially get complicated if you want multiple cabs ont he DC side so you can run multiple trains, because thent he DCC has to feed into the cab control wiring, and any scheme that simply makes the DCC an extra cab means that in one block you can have it set to DCC and in the next block set to one of the DC cabs and poof goes the magic smoke if you run past the joiners.
If you just want to switch power off in sidings so you can park locos while running a different one in DC, you can put your DC/DCC transfer switch in front of that with no problem. Being able to isolate sections of the layout by cutting power can be helpful in DCC troubleshooting as well.
For me, best practices wiring in DC is two wires to every rail - no common rail. Which also happens to be best practices with DCC wiring. Atlas track plans and some people feel common rail is better or sufficient for DC, but I never wired a DC layout like that, I always gapped both rails and ran 2 wires to each block. So doing DCC is not really different.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks for the further ideas about plugs, guys. That might be the way I go, much as I'd like to throw that big crackly switch and laugh maniacally. But now another worry arises. I'm seeing videos and articles that say that the way I wire my layout depends on whether I'm running DC or DCC. Yet this very thread is about just using one wiring scheme on the layout and simply throwing a switch between power sources. Is this one of those things where absolute best practices would dictate differnet DCC wiring, but reg'lar ol' DC wiring will be fine? Or is there some real imperative to wire according to power source? I'm confused now. Opinions and small rants welcome.
Thanks again, in advance.
crossthedogGood lord Miss Agnes! I logged in to see if just MAYBE someone might have replied to my newbie electrical query. Thank you all for replying. So much good info here, and even some info about historical house wiring! What a bonanza!
Glad you found your thread. I was concerned that when it was moved to the DCC/Electronics section we might lose you forever.
crossthedogAnd Kevin, I love that your layout is in "a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954." That's the same world I'm modeling. What are the odds?
If you feel like it, pop on over to the General Discussion section and tell us about your layout and/or your modelling ambitions.
Glad you are here.
We've been using PowerPole connectors on the club modular layout for at least 10 years now. That's many cycles of connection and disconnection, and as far as I am aware of, none have ever needed repalcement. Since I need to have a moveable section to get past my furance and water heater, I intend on using them to disconnect the power bus when moving the section. It's not like a duckunder liftout where it needs to be constantly accessed, so no sense in making some complex automatic contact system.
If you're not going to use the mad scientist knife switch, then I'd definitely go with the plug method which is also about as foolproof as it gets - can't plug 2 things into the same socket, so only the DC or the DCC system could ever be plugged in at any given time.
Some perhaps useful observations from the ham community on Anderson Powerpole connectors in the model-railroading size range:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o31iuOcQ-jo
We use two plugs and one outlet on our club layout. One plug connected to DCC power the other connected to DC power. We just plug the one we want to run with into the outlet that is connected to the track bus. Simple and it keeps us from inadvertantly knocking a switch to the worng position. Anderson Powerpoles are our choice of connectors.
Martin Myers
Walk this way!
If you hit up some antique markets you probably will eventually find a really big version of the knife switch, not that relatively puny plastic one they sell today.
ROBERT BRABANDAnd you get to re-live a (small) bit of Hollywood history from the movie "Young Frankenstein." Or is it "Fran - ken - steeeeen"?
They make light-switch covers that give you a better James Whale flavor, although not with the "improved" version of the idea I used in college, which played the sound of huge contacts smashing closed or open and the crackle of electricity when the fake switch was thrown. You could do that with a greeting-card-size sound chip today...
ROBERT BRABANDOr is it "Fran - ken - steeeeen"?
Well, then, my name is pronounced eyegore.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
rrinker Which switch? THis one! https://www.amazon.com/AXLIZER-Electricity-Experimental-Simultaneous-Connections/dp/B08RHZF4FM/ref=sr_1_16?dchild=1&keywords=knife+switch&qid=1614195592&sr=8-16 It is physically impossible to get DC and DCC togehter if this is the switch used to isolate the two,. The layout is either goign to be all DC, or all DCC. Plus it looks cool. --Randy
Which switch? THis one!
https://www.amazon.com/AXLIZER-Electricity-Experimental-Simultaneous-Connections/dp/B08RHZF4FM/ref=sr_1_16?dchild=1&keywords=knife+switch&qid=1614195592&sr=8-16
It is physically impossible to get DC and DCC togehter if this is the switch used to isolate the two,. The layout is either goign to be all DC, or all DCC.
Plus it looks cool.
And you get to re-live a (small) bit of Hollywood history from the movie "Young Frankenstein." Or is it "Fran - ken - steeeeen"?
RHB
What he needs is a switch like STSHK11-3P. This is an enclosed three-pole double-throw center-off switch; he can wire the hot side of the power to the throttle equipment to the third pole to guarantee the power switches along with the track. (Or use relays or a switched outlet...)
DPDT center off works. Make sure you throw the switch to the appropriate system BEFORE you power the system up. This minimizes the chance of a power spike that will fry your DCC system. Don't ask me how I know this.....
Bill
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig"
Good lord Miss Agnes! I logged in to see if just MAYBE someone might have replied to my newbie electrical query. Thank you all for replying. So much good info here, and even some info about historical house wiring! What a bonanza!I certainly will take to heart all these warnings about not blowing up my old DC engines. I might just get in the habit of physically removing all my DC locos from the layout whenever I want to run my DCC engine (I only have one, just bought it on eBay. It's a beauty and I don't want to ruin it: Atlas yellow-box RS-3 custom-painted n the rare, original SP&S "as delivered" livery of dark green and oxide red.)Randy, yes, THAT is the switch. I love it. It looks like a mad scientist switch, a Dr. Frankenstein switch. Thanks for finding that.And Kevin, I love that your layout is in "a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954." That's the same world I'm modeling. What are the odds?Thanks all for the warm welcome and great info and ideas! I think next I'm going to get a drawing of my layout plan and post it in here and let you guys gnaw on it. I'm sure it can be improved by the hive mind.-Matt
The Bachmann EZ Command will run a DC loco on stretch zero bii as well as the MRC Command which I use to have some years ago with five throttles. All on ebay. Throttle one was for DCC or a DC loco. I use to runder drive 4-4-0's with N scale decoders and a Winans Camel, DC as a pusher. Yes it buzzed. Open frame motor with fluwheel and mator armature had patitions on it to be more efficient. Roundhouse loco. Wgen I bashed it, never thought of DCC, My bad. Finally got a Power Cab. Retired it. It ran very well.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
DC loco sitting on DCC track won't take off - it will sit there and buzz until eventually the motor overheats. Digitrax (and maybe still Lenz) can sort of runa DC loco by altering the DCC waveform. it will be noisy and depending on the loco may or may not work very well.
TheFlyingScotsman Lastspikemike Be VERY careful that you CANNOT inadvertently leave ANY DC locomotive on DCC powered track EVER under ANY circumstances. I am DC only but have pondered this just to try out DCC, so I am curious what would happen if the above took place?
Lastspikemike Be VERY careful that you CANNOT inadvertently leave ANY DC locomotive on DCC powered track EVER under ANY circumstances.
Be VERY careful that you CANNOT inadvertently leave ANY DC locomotive on DCC powered track EVER under ANY circumstances.
I am DC only but have pondered this just to try out DCC, so I am curious what would happen if the above took place?
DC engines are designed to run on variable 0-12 volts of DC power. More power, faster speed. DCC has a constant 14V AC (or thereabouts) on the track. The high AC power could damage the DC motor if left that way long enough; if nothing else, the engine would go very fast...at least for a while.
Conversely virtually all recent (last 10-15 years) decoders are 'dual mode' so can work on DC or DCC power.
OvermodMine was built starting 1914, construction delayed by the War, finished 1919.
My oldest daughter just gutted a 115 year old Queen Anne Victorian.
She sent me pictures of some of the wiring and plumbing they found in the walls. Apparently the house had been rewired and repiped at least twice each. Some of the original components had never been replaced.
SeeYou190I was under the impression that four wire switches were only used in certain areas of the country where there was no "neutral" wire in house wiring, but two "live" wires that were out of phase, kind of the way 240 volt dryer wiring works.
At that time the house was wired with white (very faded and dirty!) and black fabric wire, all with porcelain and brass 4-wire switches, and all the white wires came down to a big copper bus. There was 240 for stove and dryer on a completely separate set of wires, although I was too young to take note of how the meter was wired in and the service panel was extensively rebuilt with breakers about the 8th time certain fuses cooked off...
Now, the house had been converted to gas heat (with a circ pump so old the makers had no record of what was on its data plate) and had the Cullinan Diamond of early sealed-pane insulating windows, so it is possible that the electrical system had been rebuilt to grounded neutral later. We were promised the house blueprints and construction records but never got them.
rrinkerWhich switch? This one!