Hi all,
I just got a digitrax DCC system and it has a feature where you can run a DC locomotive on it alongside DCC locos. The person who I got the system from does it with his DC locos, but I've read both from manufacturers and modelers that it's potentially bad for the loco. What's your experience with DC on Digitrax?
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
Yes, and no.
It can cause the motor to heat up, and if left standing it will also heat up. It was designed for Direct Current and it won't like the DCC waveform. The nature of the DCC waveform creates a lot of heat within a motor.
If it has a coreless motor, it will be destroyed quickly. Not an issue for older locomotives, but if the motor was replaced the new one may be coreless.
Occasionally running an old DC locomotive isn't really an issue, just don't leave it on the track or move it to a section which can be isolated and disconnected from the DCC system when you are not using it.
If you purchase a new DC locomotive, read the instructions as it may warn you about using it on DCC.
The ability to run a DC locomotive on Address 00 was a feature added in the early days to keep some modellers happy. If it disappeared tomorrow no one would really notice. In the early days of DCC some manufacturers felt that it was necessary to include Analog capabilities to sell their product to a hesitant consumer. Many modellers had a very dim view of command control in the 1990s.
So, since I am having trouble with my DCC engines pulling my CMX track cleaner, I can hit 00 and run my old Kato's NW2, have a pair that I know will pull it ?
The two points where the brushes contact the armature get quite hot when the loco is sitting still and DCC still on the rails. The amature is still vibrating at the DCC frequency. I did measurements some years ago with an infrared temp scanner. I could see those two points even through a can motor shell on a test stand.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Just get a single DPDT switch. Hook one side up to a good dc power supply. Center will be OFF, and hook other side to DCC system of choice. This WILL STOP the dcc system from seeing the dc system as a short and WILL protect the dc diesels.
I have several units each of the very same manufacturer's current diesel models in both dc and dcc. The power loss due to ESU LokSound Version 5 decoder combined with the manufacturer's crappy garbage mother board is quite noticeable in engine performance on the layout. It is enough to sometimes kill a motor that works adequately in plain dc. (I have one dcc unit dead so far).
Honestly, I do not like dcc. It is difficult to run an advanced consist and then play with sound or lighting effects on individual units at the same time without stopping your train from moving when you return to the consist. I think dcc just utterly sucks. Also this is because I can NOW readily see the actual loss of performance of the dcc loco due to all the boards sucking voltage, power, and current. They run MUCH better in plain dc!
I fail to see how dcc is a "gain" unless you love the lighting functions (and sound).
John
PRR8259Honestly, I do not like dcc. It is difficult to run an advanced consist and then play with sound or lighting effects on individual units at the same time without stopping your train from moving when you return to the consist. I think dcc just utterly sucks.
John,
A consist in DCC is usually set up so that you control the sound and lighting effects of the lead unit. While you can set up and adjust those on the individual helper units, you should do this before setting up your consist. And the lighting effects are really only going to pertain to the lead unit, yes? Once the consist is broken apart, the individual locomotives retain their individual lighting effects.
I don't run many MUs but I've not had issues setting them up, operating, or breaking them apart using with my Power Cab. It does not support "00" addressing though, which I'm perfectly fine with.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I have a Lenz DCC system which also supports the Engine Zero option for DC engines. I've tried a few and the horrid performance and buzzing noise immediately sent me out to my LHS for a decoder.
As a side note, be aware that an autoreverser for DCC will not work with a DC engine used this way. The autoreverser works fine, but the DC engine will reverse when the phase is flipped, while a DCC engine will keep going the same direction.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I have to agree one of the main advantages of DCC is running the trains together, the other is sound. I don't ussually need to run engines together so the sound is what won me over. Yes you can have sound in DC but it is way harder.
It 'works' but to varying degrees, depending on the loco. The main intent was for N scale locos in the early days of DCC, when decoders were a lot bigger than the ones we can get today and before all the N scale locos had easily swappable boards with multiple manufacturers making decoders for them. Athearn BB locos for example, buzz horrible - those gold motors are loosely assmebled so the whole thing vibrates. Some better wuality motors run better, but they will all buzz or sing to some degree - the DCC frequency is within human hearing range, especially the younger you are.
As mentioned - don;t leave a DC loco sitting there not moving. In this situation, many times it's the better quality motor that is more vulnerable to overheating.
Sometimes it comes in handy - once had an old Bowser PRR T1 that had been built up but never run, just packed away for 15 years. Put it on the DC track, and it wouldn;t turn, just popped the overload on the DC power pack. Put it on the DCC track and tried address 00, and it gradually started turning. The more it ran back and forth, the better it got. I wasn;t too worried about the open frame motor overheating, there was plenty of airflow, especially witht he armature turning, even slowly. It wasn't particularly noisy, but a real 2.5 amps from the DCC system combined with the harsh pulses got the motor and gears moving and worked everything loose to where it was finally able to run.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I actually had a Tech 6 until it wore out (knob went past zero and so it would not "stop" trains) and then I replaced it with a new MRC Tech 7, which works very well but does not provide the same features--is a conventional plain dc power supply--but a good one.
BUT
My son wanted some fully featured Athearn Genesis 2.0 SD90MAC-H's and we also acquired some other dcc units. The other dcc units have not worked out well, so much so that dc replacements have been ordered and arrived. My dcc units are on Ebay currently.
Now, back more on topic: We don't have all that many units on hand and I never ever leave locos on the track unless they are my son's for him to run. So I know which units are plain dc and which ones are dcc. That is not a problem (actually because all dcc units excepting my son's are up for sale).
With the DPDT switch ONLY the selected power supply is active. NO power from the other supply can get to the rails. Most problems are solved. Most people unless they are new to the hobby already have a decent dc power supply.
It is perhaps easier to program cv settings with the NCE Powercab than it is with the Tech 6, or at least you have ready access to more of the cv settings than one actually has with the Tech 6, as I think it is limited in which cv's it can change.
Lastspikemike rrebell I have to agree one of the main advantages of DCC is running the trains together, the other is sound. I don't ussually need to run engines together so the sound is what won me over. Yes you can have sound in DC but it is way harder. I'm pretty sure 00 addressing won't work for more than one DC locomotive at a time.
rrebell I have to agree one of the main advantages of DCC is running the trains together, the other is sound. I don't ussually need to run engines together so the sound is what won me over. Yes you can have sound in DC but it is way harder.
I'm pretty sure 00 addressing won't work for more than one DC locomotive at a time.
The Lenz DCC System on address ''00'' will run at least two DC locos together or separately with each having a train in tow. All the DC Engines should be speed matched if running MU'ed. All DC Engines will run in the same direction on the track no matter which way they are facing.
You can leave ''00'' and the DC locos will still be moving at what ever speed and direction you left them on.
I think it was me that was corrected later down the line of replys. I edited my words above. 10/26/20 8:40 pm.
Now my cloudy mistaken and confused thoughts may have gone back to when, I would change the wire leads to the motor, then the DC Engine would run in the opposite direction it was intended to.
PC101 The Lenz DCC System on address ''00'' will run at least two DC locos together, running Elephant style only or separately with each having a train in tow. Running elephant style, all the DC Engines should be speed matched and must be direction matched. You can leave ''00'' and the DC locos will still be moving at what ever speed you left them on.
The Lenz DCC System on address ''00'' will run at least two DC locos together, running Elephant style only or separately with each having a train in tow.
Running elephant style, all the DC Engines should be speed matched and must be direction matched.
You can leave ''00'' and the DC locos will still be moving at what ever speed you left them on.
Thanks for the advice everyone, I breifly tested a DC loco on it today but the terrible buzzing, poor control, and apparent risk of overheating and ruining the motor was enough to convince me to order a bulk pack of decoders.
Good choice Harrison.
Mike.
My You Tube
Address 00 will run as many DC locos as there is current capacity in the DCC system. They just aren't individually controllable. It's like having 4 DCC locos all set to the same address.
What do you mean "you're not running them"? If I put 4 DC locos on the tracks, dial up address 0 on my Zephyr, and increase the throttle, they will all move. If they are the same brand, with the same motor, they might even move together, at the same speed, like they would on actual DC power. I have speed control and direction control. Unless one is wired backwards, they will all move the same direction. I could keep adding more locos, as long as I don't exceed the 2.5 amps the system can supply. Or I could power the track through my DB150 booster and run up to 5 amps of DC locos simultaneously.
Exactly the same as using a regular DC power pack, or the same as having multiple DCC locos all set for the same address - select that shared address and all locos using that address will move at the same time. Same direction, same speed (if they are similar locos).
rrinker What do you mean "you're not running them"? If I put 4 DC locos on the tracks, dial up address 0 on my Zephyr, and increase the throttle, they will all move. If they are the same brand, with the same motor, they might even move together, at the same speed, like they would on actual DC power. I have speed control and direction control. Unless one is wired backwards, they will all move the same direction. I could keep adding more locos, as long as I don't exceed the 2.5 amps the system can supply. Or I could power the track through my DB150 booster and run up to 5 amps of DC locos simultaneously. Exactly the same as using a regular DC power pack, or the same as having multiple DCC locos all set for the same address - select that shared address and all locos using that address will move at the same time. Same direction, same speed (if they are similar locos). --Randy
And, let's reinforce an important point for a poster a few posts back.
They will all move in the same direction (left or right), without regard for which way the locos are "facing". A pair of back to back units will move togther just like they do on real DC.
And again I think the OP has made the smart choice by not running DC locos on his DCC system. Just like I don't run DCC locos on my DC system.
Sheldon
HarrisonThanks for the advice everyone, I breifly tested a DC loco on it today but the terrible buzzing, poor control, and apparent risk of overheating and ruining the motor was enough to convince me to order a bulk pack of decoders.
That sounds like a good plan of action.
I ran one of my DC locos like that one time. My experience was similar to yours. It might work, but I was not comfortable with the way it worked.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Lastspikemike rrinker What do you mean "you're not running them"? If I put 4 DC locos on the tracks, dial up address 0 on my Zephyr, and increase the throttle, they will all move. If they are the same brand, with the same motor, they might even move together, at the same speed, like they would on actual DC power. I have speed control and direction control. Unless one is wired backwards, they will all move the same direction. I could keep adding more locos, as long as I don't exceed the 2.5 amps the system can supply. Or I could power the track through my DB150 booster and run up to 5 amps of DC locos simultaneously. Exactly the same as using a regular DC power pack, or the same as having multiple DCC locos all set for the same address - select that shared address and all locos using that address will move at the same time. Same direction, same speed (if they are similar locos). --Randy I mean you're not running them. Two or ten DC locomotives on one throttle are just one locomotive. The link to the digitrax document actually speaks about running just the one DC locomotive with address 00. Are you sure it is possible to always assign address 00 to more than one locomotive on track concurrently?
I mean you're not running them.
Two or ten DC locomotives on one throttle are just one locomotive.
The link to the digitrax document actually speaks about running just the one DC locomotive with address 00.
Are you sure it is possible to always assign address 00 to more than one locomotive on track concurrently?
You don't (can't) assign an address of 00 TO a DC engine. When address 00 is selected, the information (zero stretching) is broadcast over the entire layout and only non-decodered DC engines will respond to it, whether it's just one or twenty.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Mike,
You're not assigning an address to anything when you use address 00. It's just putting a DC like voltage to the tracks instead of the DCC signals so any DC locomotive on the tracks will respond. Just for giggles I put a B&O dockside on the tracks with the chassis of an Athearn SD40-T2 for my Cary E-7 which are both DC locomotive and turned up the throttle on my DCS-50 with address 00. Both of them moved in opposite directions and when I reversed the direction, they ran towards each other.
Could have run more but I only have 2 DC locomotives.
Scott Sonntag
Hello All,
"Why else would a grown man play with trains?"
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
You can run more than one DC loco but there will be a current limit. No idea what it is one that controlller.
Some years ago I had an MR Command 2000 DCC controller with five throttles which had a one amp limit. Three on the main panel and two on a hand held controller. Number one on the panel was for a DCC or DC loco.
You can still find it on ebay last I knew.
I think the Bachmann EZ Command has a one amp limit.
Rich.
If using Add 00, any DC loco on the rails will move at the speed it’s engineered/geared to run at the voltage currently imparted to the rails for 00. This could be a single locomotive or 12, assuming their need for motive power severally does not exceed the output of the system, and that their individual and unique drive ‘stickiness’ gets them underway as voltage rises in discrete steps per setup of speed steps.
The manual may not mention it, but the logical inference ought to be that any DC locos will respond commensurate to the configuration of the voltage if Add 00 is enabled.
I have learned something new today. Sheldon doesn’t ‘run’ his trains because they move when he manipulates his DC throttles.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrinker What do you mean "you're not running them"? If I put 4 DC locos on the tracks, dial up address 0 on my Zephyr, and increase the throttle, they will all move. If they are the same brand, with the same motor, they might even move together, at the same speed, like they would on actual DC power. I have speed control and direction control. Unless one is wired backwards, they will all move the same direction. I could keep adding more locos, as long as I don't exceed the 2.5 amps the system can supply. Or I could power the track through my DB150 booster and run up to 5 amps of DC locos simultaneously. Exactly the same as using a regular DC power pack, or the same as having multiple DCC locos all set for the same address - select that shared address and all locos using that address will move at the same time. Same direction, same speed (if they are similar locos). --Randy And, let's reinforce an important point for a poster a few posts back. They will all move in the same direction (left or right), without regard for which way the locos are "facing". A pair of back to back units will move togther just like they do on real DC. Sheldon
Yep my oversight. Thank you Sheldon.
Already covered, you don't 'assign' address 0 to anything. But even if it did - I can 'assign' any valid DCC address to any number of locos - and they will all run at the same time that address is selected. The difference is, a DCC loco, when commanded to forward, move 'forward' regardless of which way they are facing, unless the motor wires are swapped or CV29 set for reverse direction of movement.
Lakeshore SubYou're not assigning an address to anything when you use address 00. It's just putting a DC like voltage to the tracks instead of the DCC signals so any DC locomotive on the tracks will respond.
When address "OO" is active, what has to be happening is that the entire DCC voltage is being modulated in such a way that it approximates PWM DC at the appropriate chosen polarity (that term now being used advisedly, in the DC context) for whichever direction is currently toggled. We know this in part because Digitrax advises that there is massive bandwidth consumption in this mode, meaning that there may be latency in control recognition for 'other' DCC signals being sent to decoder-equipped locomotives. Presumably the modulation is accomplished so that regular DC motors 'see' only a complexly-modulated voltage (unfortunately some parts respond to the quickly-pulsed combination of logic and PWM and start to buzz and heat up...)
Don't ask me how decoder functions requiring relatively high minimum voltage continue to work when the commanded voltage for 00 drops the aggregate 'track voltage' below that level. Perhaps they don't.
DCS51 documentation specifically references that you can run (so there!) more than one DC locomotive at once. (Of course you can't control them 'separately' but if you're wanting multiple trains going around and around at the same time, that could be done.)
Lastspikemike Lakeshore Sub Mike, You're not assigning an address to anything when you use address 00. It's just putting a DC like voltage to the tracks instead of the DCC signals so any DC locomotive on the tracks will respond. Just for giggles I put a B&O dockside on the tracks with the chassis of an Athearn SD40-T2 for my Cary E-7 which are both DC locomotive and turned up the throttle on my DCS-50 with address 00. Both of them moved in opposite directions and when I reversed the direction, they ran towards each other. Could have run more but I only have 2 DC locomotives. Scott Sonntag Well, digitrax seens to disagree.
Lakeshore Sub Mike, You're not assigning an address to anything when you use address 00. It's just putting a DC like voltage to the tracks instead of the DCC signals so any DC locomotive on the tracks will respond. Just for giggles I put a B&O dockside on the tracks with the chassis of an Athearn SD40-T2 for my Cary E-7 which are both DC locomotive and turned up the throttle on my DCS-50 with address 00. Both of them moved in opposite directions and when I reversed the direction, they ran towards each other. Could have run more but I only have 2 DC locomotives. Scott Sonntag
Well, digitrax seens to disagree.
Why? Because you don't understand the term "zero stretching"?
The DCC signal is a pulsed AC signal, address 00 alters that pulse so a DC motor sees part of it as a PWM DC voltage. If they shift the pulse foward on the right hand rail, the DC loco moves "forward", if the shift the pulse forward on the left hand rail, the loco moves in "reverse".
The farther forward they shift the pulse, the higher effective voltage the DC motor sees, so it goes faster.
Mean while, the rest of the DCC AC signal is bouncing around overheating the motor...........which they warn you about.......
Lastspikemike Let us say you are "operating" two or more DC locomotives using address 00. One is running through your yard while the other(s) are running on various points of main lines. Which locomotive are you operating?
Let us say you are "operating" two or more DC locomotives using address 00.
One is running through your yard while the other(s) are running on various points of main lines.
Which locomotive are you operating?
What part of this is so hard to understand. You are controlling both of them, just like putting two DC locos randomly on a DC layout with no blocks and turning up the throttle.
Most of the people in this conversation referring to operating two locos on address 00 are referring to double headed/MU operation, not two seperate trains.
Mike, You can only "control" one "train" on address 00, that train can have more than one locomotive.
The average train on my layout is powered by two steam locos or 3-4 diesel locos, and that will work on a DCC layout, with address 00.
But I would never subject my locomotives to that signal......
LastspikemikeWhich locomotive are you operating?
Obviously how you turn the voltage up and down affects how fast they all go. Were you expecting a single control to give you independent modulation of different functions? Doesn't work that way.
Now if you had a yard goat that ran much more slowly at "7 volts" than the locomotives on main lines, it wouldn't get into trouble as fast as the others, and you could 'wait longer' before mashing the reverse to make it go the other way for a while.
As noted, the principal use of 'more than one locomotive' on a single DC throttle control is double- or multiple-heading. Sheldon has summarized it pretty well. More amps at the 'commanded' PWM voltage level will run additional engines on or in the same train just fine.