So DCE recommends DCC feeder wires approx every three feet so I am going with that recommendation and on the track cleaning which is really the second part of this......
So I am going to switch to this method as the video makes sense to me and I remember a long time ago doing this in the 1980's using a labelle oil based conductor and it did last a while. Already bought the acetone and specialized tank car (you can buy the brass tank car via Amazon). Going to give it a try.
Anyone else out there that does this? Here is the video explaining it.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW6PrXmbNPU&t=435s
CMStPnPAnyone else out there that does this? Here is the video explaining it..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW6PrXmbNPU&t=435s
For me, the link above starts the video 7 minutes in. I will add another link here that for me takes me to the beginning.
https://youtu.be/pW6PrXmbNPU
On the particulars, a few comments. None meant to mean that there is only one way to approach the subject.
1. I did the "gleam" method per the many times prior communicated approach. I have a smallish layout so did not mind the two sandpaper steps included at the beginning.
2. He mentions using polish as the gleaming final step, but he did not mention doing that again when going through the steps.
3. On the gleaming burnishing step, use a stainless steel washer. That step does take some time & effort, but you can feel the roughness disappear so you know when to move on.
4. For occasional maintenance, I run a CMX car with denatured alcohol, always using a clean pad (a piece of corderoy, which is washable). I believe many lean towards lacquer thinner as their preference, I just have not bothered to switch. I would not use acetone myself for that purpose, as I presume it is more volatile and toxic and the denatured alcohol is quite adequate. While polar, it dries in no time, so I presume any dirt attracted while drying is negligible. (I read on another thread that mineral spirits is a non-polar solvent.) Just my take on that step. I am not familiar with the CRC 2-26 and have not tried that additional maintenance step.
5. In the video, I did not think showing pouring IPA into a shot glass was prudent. Of course it is not drinkable, as it is not (un-denatured) ethanol. Just my reaction.
I am a big fan of gleaming and the CMX car for occasional cleaning. I think the fact that I have few non-metal wheels on the fleet is also a help. Plus usually including a John Allen masonite pad cleaning car in one of my freight trains.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
That is far too much elbow grease for an old man like me. I simply use a CMX track cleaning tank car with ATC-6006 cleaning fluid. I run it twice around my layout about once a month and after a sand storm. I’ve never had a single problem since I started using that method, probably 10 or 12 years.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
My last layout, all I ever did was the burnishing step. Never had to clean the track again.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I do the gleaming step with a silver coin instead of a stainless steel washer.
Never need to do rail cleaning.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
CMStPnP So DCE recommends DCC feeder wires approx every three feet so I am going with that recommendation ...
So DCE recommends DCC feeder wires approx every three feet so I am going with that recommendation ...
Far too much unnecessary work. If you want to ensure every three feet of rails has positive power, simply solder every other joiner and have a feeder inserted into those soldered joiners. With the solder making a first class joint, you get power moving in two opposite directions away from the joint and on to the next joint if that joint is not soldered. If you solder that joint, you'll get robust voltage to the rails for another 3', now totaling 6' in each direction from that first soldered and fed joint.
This is what it would look like schematically:
======o=========x=========o=========x===
The x's are soldered joiners with feeders hammered to flat ends and inserted into the joiner....or soldered under the joiner. As you can see, each fed and soldered joiner sends voltage two ways for a total of 6', and if you solder most joiners, your voltage will travel even further.
For HO typical codes of N/S rail stock, a pair of 22 gauge feeders will adequately supply robust voltage for about 12 feet. After that, the voltage degrades enough that you might begin to detect a reduction in performance.
Weren't we promised 30 years ago that DCC (or any Command Control) would relieve us from track cleaning duty forever? The argument was the constant high voltage on the track would not be affected by dirt on the track like DC was when running slow at low voltage.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
The gleaming process has gotten much easier over the years.
I've been a gleaming fan ever since I first came across it in these Forums some 10 years (?) ago. The process back then was to use 400 then 600 grit paper (then described as "super or ultra fine"), and finish it off with burnishing with the stainless steel washer. As fine as #600 seemed to be at the time, it took a lot of burnishing (and elbow grease) to even approach a mirror finish.
Then I found that much finer grit papers were available. Now my gleaming arsenel includes 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, and 12,000 grit papers. On the initial cleaning, I typically do one pass with each grit, cleaning the rail between each pass. While I still finish up with a quick burnishing, the 12,000 grit produces a mirror finish by itself.
Periodic cleaning is done by vacuuming the track, then with a loco pushing a masonite block car around for a few laps. If something more is needed, only the higher grit papers are used.
Jim
Selector: That's how I wired mine, although I also put power to the unsoldered joiners as well.
Kevin: I might try that, I do have some old silver coins that are worn down like that so they are only worth anything for the value of their silver, not the coin itself. I actually used the back side of my hardened cutters that I use to cut music wire. I don't think it matters much as long as the material is harder than nickel silver.
Carl: I don;t remember any promise of no more track cleaning, but with the gleaming process to close up microabrasions in the rail, dirt doesn't really stick. There may be some dust if the layout is in an unsealed area, or you don't run trains much, but that can be brushed/blown off, it doesn't need crazy liquids or special cleaning tank cars full of them. I know someone did an analysis of the gunk that forms on the rails and claims it has nothing to do with plastic wheels or anything, but find a spot that you haven't dusted for a while, like a high shelf or something, and spray it with some cleaner and then try to wipe it up. You can't tell me using a wet agent on the dust that forms on the rails just sitting there won't generate a similar gunk that you had better totally clean off. My solution was to burnish the rails, use all metal wheels, and run trains frequently. Never needed additional cleaning.
The ultrafine grit sandpapers are often found in auto parts stores, with the bodywork supplies. And you can't just stop at the lower numbers - that's the problem with other abrasive cleaning methods, they leave the surface pitted, even if you can't see it without a microscope. Those pits and gouges collect dirt. Ultrafine and then a good burnishing (although as I said, I found just the burnishing worked - but that was all brand new track out of the box, not stuff that have been around for years and cleaned with various other methods like Brite Boys and such) close those up. Real track that sees regular traffic is similarly burnished by the steel wheels and at the point of contact is very shiny, even if the sides and base are dirty and rusty, so having the running surface of your model track bright and shiny is realistic.
Gleamed my track as I installed it in 2006, did a touchup burnish in 2016, run a masonite pad on most freight consists, good to go. Do find that little used sidings, like once a year or two, do require wiping on occasion as stuff does accumulate.
Thanks for the feedback everyone this does boost my confidence a little more with this new method (gleaming). I was able to buy a package of 2 - 2 inch stainless steel washers at Home Depot that seem to work fine last night. So I am all set to go next weekend once I finish with the bus and feeder wires. I am doing the whole DCE recommendation on the bus and feeder wires including the switch machine options (toggle switch on facia or cab control of switch using the switch 8 circuit), circuit breakers, and I have installed the auto reverse circuits and they seem to be working well (very seamless) on my two lower reverse loops.
I did encounter another problem but it is minor. My Atlas loco does the jerky operation, Athearn runs smooth with no issues. So my presumption there is dirty or tarnished wheels, will check that out later. Have not tested my KATO or Scale Models yet. I figure as long as one model manufacturer works OK, I should be able to adjust the others to work OK. Way back in the DC era I used to prefer Atlas locos because of their brass wheel whipers that kept the wheels clean and their smooth can motors so the troubles now with Atlas in DCC are a surprise but I'll figure out whatever the issue is.
I'd be interested in a report (with appropriate microphotography) about any difference in micropitting (due to spark erosion, etc.) with DCC power vs. straight and PWM DC. In my opinion, dirty locomotive wheels on gleamed track will still induce micro-arcing, and the resulting plasma will damage any adjacent surface whether it is specular-reflective or not -- this could be relatively easily tested out and demonstrated (or disproved).
Once you have gleamed, you should periodically check to see if any further pitting or wear has occurred, and periodically repeat whatever finishing steps are required. (I am tempted to say 'do this with a good loupe' or one of those microphotography USB cameras sold for 'enlarging things 200x' for curious STEM kids, but it isn't necessarily obsessive...)
Note that 'polishing' in these discussions is likely just like wet-sanding with very fine grit: somewhere in one of the historical posts here is a table explicitly providing the 'grit' equivalent of different materials and polishes. That could be continued right up through contact methods of superfinishing including ammonium bifluoride and the like.
Most polishing is also a removal process ("subtractive machining") and does not really substitute for burnishing, which is mechanical reworking (which includes work-hardening when applicable) of the surface. Here I think it is advisable to remember that the results of burnishing are not 'magic'; they depend substantially on the surface finish as well as relative hardness of your burnisher, and the religious elimination of the least trace of previous grit or other 'hard contaminants' that might get between the burnisher and the work. What this really implies is that if you are going to do the 'washer trick' look carefully at the washers and select a good one, burnish using the 'rounded' side and not the punched side, and carefully polish and clean the active faces of the washer to the same surface quality you want.
OvermodI'd be interested in a report
One big difference from DC and it is irritating in DCC is that when there is a short the sound card in the locomotives re-initialize and you get the whole locomotive starting up sequence again via the sound card once the electrical pickup resumes. I can see why folks are fanatical about soldering joints and feeder wires every so many feet......it's trying to avoid the sound cards from starting over again. Now in DCC you can turn the sound off as an option to get around that.
As for surface of the washer both sides were smooth so it didn't matter.
And not ALL DCC sound decoders run through the startup sequence if they lose power and then get it back. Some remember the last state and come back the wya it was (which could be they are running the prime mover like what would be half speed, but they don't jackrabbit back into motion like a DC loco would, the motor gradually speeds up, but at least you didn't have the startup sequence playing while the loco was already moving).
carl425 Weren't we promised 30 years ago that DCC (or any Command Control) would relieve us from track cleaning duty forever? The argument was the constant high voltage on the track would not be affected by dirt on the track like DC was when running slow at low voltage.
I can't say that 'they' did or did not, but if they did, it was a mistake. 'They' must not have been aware of the difference between the two modes of operation where the electronics needed an unfettered and steady supply of voltage, and that the older DC mode was more forgiving of minor dropout. And, if it's worth saying, and I think it is, the DC way of running trains was far better insofar as maintaining steady movement of the trains. However, having taken pains to ensure my DCC running doesn't suffer unduly, I would not go back. I like having two locomotives couple when only one of them is in motion, or when the two are moving toward each other. That won't happen in DC, not without sophisticated equipment, and I don't want to learn how to do that and to install what it takes.
hardcoalcaseNow my gleaming arsenel includes 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, and 12,000 grit papers.
My last sandpaper before the coin is 4,000 grit.
I cannot imagine trying to gleam from 600 grit.
Sanding the rails with 4,000 grit paper makes the paper look chrome plated.
SeeYou190 Kevin
Kevin
Yes... it was quite a workout! Rationalized, no doubt, by the thought that it was a "once & done" process. But I was really... really happy to come across the finer grits!
SeeYou190 hardcoalcase Now my gleaming arsenel includes 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, and 12,000 grit papers. -Kevin
hardcoalcase Now my gleaming arsenel includes 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, and 12,000 grit papers.
That does certainly takes the hard work out of gleaming, but I would recommend that you try the finer grits too. As noted in my post, the final step with the 12000 grit creats such a mirror finish, that I questioned whether burnishing was needed at all. But I do burnish anyway, on the premise that no matter how fine the grit, there is still going to be some micro-scratching, so the burnishing is still beneficial.
SeeYou190 Sanding the rails with 4,000 grit paper makes the paper look chrome plated. -Kevin
I run the cmx around the layout twice a year and never get a hiccup. All this rubbing and scrubbing sure sounds like a lot of work.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Yeah but you do it once, and never again. I just did it as I went along painting the track - have to clean the paint that gets ont he top anyway.
Best way is to just run trains frequently. Use all metal wheels. Seams when trains don't run often Dirt at oxidize build up. I always found wiping with a paper towel. (Kitchen roll). Then run a heavy train with athearn bluebox sd40-2's always polished the rail well. Never did anything more than and never needed too
shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
This is interesting.
Sandpaper, while more labor intensive, is far cheaper than the cleaning car. Should we use sandpaper on the DCC layout? If so, are the grits mentioned in the video correct?
kasskabooseThis is interesting. Does it really mean one and done?
Personally I've always been in the 'prototype railhead appearance' camp, and have come to subscribe to the microarcing theory of progressive track damage, both of which are addressed nicely by the more refined 'gleaming' process.
If you like the idea of TOR either with the light nonoxidizing oil film or the dielectric grease, I still think that 'optimizing the railheads' is a good first step before 'coating'. And in such case the 'once and done' aspect of the gleaming process would be even better established...
How much is the cost for the products?
A pack of the stainless washers (so you can pick a 'good one' or tinker with shaping and polishing the burnishing surface) will be expensive as washers go ... but not that much in 'absolute' terms and, for all intents and purposes, 'once and done' for even large and growing layouts.
incidentally I have not seen the Bright Boy (or other polishing-pad) proponents in this thread yet. My interpretation of the 'revealed wisdom' in threads on the topic indicates that Bright Boying leaves the track in a state analogous to an intermediate state of 'gleaming' grinding, but causes its own forms of track damage, notably gouging, that likely cause their own electrical or contact issues ... and may actually require more physical material removal at the finer grits than if pads had not been used at that step. As noted we need someone to document this with a good high-resolution microcamera or metallurgical scope and good lighting technique to show the actual finish, pitting, etc involved in each step of various approaches to the 'gleaming' -- I apologize in advance for dogging it all these years and continuing not to do it as talk is cheap.
I think the next 'timeless topic' in the cost of track treatment is going to involve cheap or easy ways to clean large numbers of wheeltreads effectively, for those cases where TOR treatment preserves the track but gunks the wheels. Surely there are reasonably cost-effective analogues to those automated vinyl record cleaners!
Overmod; use a radius section of the layout to clean wheels,
to clarify, let the trains run by on a given radius section that you can wipe down after each train pass, eventually most of the dirt is scruffed off on that radius by the trains and then you merely wipe the crud each pass, you'll notice less dirt on the wipe each time....
Semafores
selector CMStPnP So DCE recommends DCC feeder wires approx every three feet so I am going with that recommendation ... Far too much unnecessary work. If you want to ensure every three feet of rails has positive power, simply solder every other joiner and have a feeder inserted into those soldered joiners.
Far too much unnecessary work. If you want to ensure every three feet of rails has positive power, simply solder every other joiner and have a feeder inserted into those soldered joiners.
Rich
Alton Junction
Overmod In my opinion, dirty locomotive wheels on gleamed track will still induce micro-arcing
In my opinion, dirty locomotive wheels on gleamed track will still induce micro-arcing
I have never seriously gleemed a whole layout, never had any issues.
Yes the gunk is nickle oxide, plastic wheels don't cause it, but they attract it. Metal wheels not so much.
My understanding of the science supports the idea of gleeming, but I know lots of guys with big layouts who have never done it, their trains run fine, they clean track seldom to never, have few to zero dirty track issues.
I will be interested to see what happens on my new layout? I run DC, at a max voltage of about 14 volts, PWM speed control. More arcing or less arcing than the hybrid AC signal of DCC?
So glad I'm not soldering feeders every 3-6 feet on the up coming 1400 feet of track........
Each control block gets a feeder, each block has all soldered rail joints, throttle buss from wireless throttle recievers is #12 wire, drops from track to local relay stations are #18. Control blocks sometimes 60 feet long.
No voltage drop issues........ Is the arcing different?
Sheldon
I like that quarter Kevin.
I use laquer thinner in a rail cleaning car that works the same way as the expensive car works.
On the pad, I use the same material that is on the CMX car. Works fine.
I might do this once, or at the very most twice a year.
The never ending topic of track cleaning.
Mike.
My You Tube
The whole gleaming thing seems like too much work. All I ever did was thr burnishing step with a hardened washer (actually, I used the flat side of my hardened wire cutters used to cut piano wire). No polish stop. Just rubbed along the rails, both at the same time, gnetly around switch point so as not to bend or break them, and I nevber had any issues with running trains. No need for keep alives, either.
rrinker The whole gleaming thing seems like too much work.
The whole gleaming thing seems like too much work.