Hi guys, I am so lost here. This is my first ESU Loksound decoder I've ever used. (placed in my Kato Amtrak F40ph) And I am baffled at its lackluster performancebecause I know there are many out there that swear by using ESU on all their engines.
Cut to my issue. There are two.
1. The motor sometimes seems inconsistently responsive to my controller. All the sounds lights work, but sometimes when I start the motor up, the engine just sits there. (happens around 20% of the time I start the engine up from a stand still). Until finally I push the engine a bit, or turn the flywheel a tad will the motor start up. I assume its something wrong with the motor and its wiring, but the solder connections are solid, and the kato motor ran fine when in DC. Something must be wrong with the commutator.
2. The engine seems super sensitive to track power. The lights love to flicker, even on just cleaned track. Youd think 8 wheel pickup would be enough. That's not an issue, as I should be able to add a stay alive capacitor somewhere in the circuit. Anyways, today I found that the engine loves to pause(sound goes off for a moment until the flywheel brings it past the dead spot) on this one part of the layout. I cleaned the @#$%$ out of that part of the track, but no matter how clean, the engine STILL cuts out there. On closer inspection, that part of the track has the feeder wire soldered there. Can the engine sense the increase in power there? Why would it cut out there? Would a keep alive capacitor help this issue?
I am baffled, and disappointed at all the issues Im having with this engine. I have many many other engines with/without sound, DC/DCC, which have no problem going through that section of track.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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Have you cleaned the wheels? Sounds like all the symptoms of dirty wheels.
BTW you mentioned solder connections - did you solder in a "hardwire" installation? If so, I can verify flux does a GREAT job of preventing wheels from making electrical contact.
Yes, wheels are squeaky clean(iso alcohol)
All wires to and from the board are soldered, using flux, and rosin core lead solder.
I might not be understanding what you mean by that last line haha
Try the BEMF auto tune, but if the lights are flicking, there is a power interruption. That's not cuased by the decoder. Either all the pickups aren't actually connected to the track input of the decoder, so it's not picking up from all 8 wheels, or in the process of wiring in the decoder, a pickup is no longer making contact with the wheel or axle (not sure how Kato does it on their newer locos). Pickup issues are easy to test - put a piece of paper between one truck and the track and see if everythign works - if you run slowly, you cna even move it back and forth a bit with one truck on the paper. Repeat witht he other truck. If it acts up with one truck on paper but not the other, the problem is witht he pickups or track wireing tot he decoder for the truck that was touching the rails when it acted up.
If you're having to actually spin the flywheel to get it started, something's up witht he motor. Was this a plug in install, or did you solder the motor wires to the motor directly? It's easy to get too much heat in there and distort the plastic on the motor, which messes with the brushes. If you took the brush caps out to solder, did you forget a brush spring? Or maybe not get the brush back in the right way - so the curve shape matches the direction of the commutator. If a brush is turned 90 degrees it will do some strange things and not run well.
What Stix means is when you solder, flux can get on other nearby bits - liek the wheels, or the pickup wipers. Any proper flux you should be using with electronic stuff should clean up with isopropyl, so while the wheel surfaces may be nice and clean, it could be the back of the wheel or the pickup wiper that's dirty.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Trainman440All the sounds lights work, but sometimes when I start the motor up, the engine just sits there.
ESU sound decoders by default will have a delay in the motor start. They believe modelers prefer to hear the prime mover "spool-up" before the engine moves.
This delay can be reduced or even eliminated if you desire. You can disable this startup delay by simply deleting bit 3 of CV 124. This will cause the Lok Sound decoder to immediately start moving when the throttle is turned up.
Good Luck, Ed
Ed beat me to it. Set CV 124 to zero.
I had the same frustration. I would set the speed, and the locomotive would just sit there for a while.
Some want that -- I didn't.
York1 John
Based on cab rides in real locos - I leave it, because it's the way a real loco works.
York1 I had the same frustration. I would set the speed, and the locomotive would just sit there for a while. Some want that -- I didn't.
John,
How long is "a while"??? At most mine would delay maybe....3 seconds?
Even with a Loksound there usually is an audible "phssssssh" with the delay, as the brakes are released. I thought it was a very cool and realistic feature.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Another area of poor contact is between the axle tips and the contact strip on the back of the side frame. Lubricants can migrate into that area and become a great insulator. I've had more than a few factory new engines that ran poorly because of lubricant in that area.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
tstage York1 I had the same frustration. I would set the speed, and the locomotive would just sit there for a while. Some want that -- I didn't. John, How long is "a while"??? At most mine would delay maybe....3 seconds? Even with a Loksound there usually is an audible "phssssssh" with the delay, as the brakes are released. I thought it was a very cool and realistic feature. Tom
My Kato would delay various times. The starting sequence sounds would not start until F8 was pressed, even if I started the throttle. From then, it could be anywhere from five to, I would estimate, 7 or 8 seconds.
It was then I realized the delay could be adjusted with CV 124. It was enough to me to be frustrating, so I just did away with the delay.
I never got an audible sound as if the brakes were released.
Thanks, John. That's interesting. And I think the brake release sound was only with steam files. With diesel there was just the delay.
That's what I hated about the one Tsunami I had, it didn't start up until speed step 1, then the loco is moving while playing a startup sequence and not the prime mover. It's nice to power up the layout and not have noise explode all over. Pick a loco, F8 to start it up, and drive off. Or just drive off with no sound, it still runs even if you don't press F8 and start the sounds. My brand new Atls RS-3 only pauses for a few seconds before moving off when given throttle.
rrinker That's what I hated about the one Tsunami I had, it didn't start up until speed step 1, then the loco is moving while playing a startup sequence and not the prime mover. It's nice to power up the layout and not have noise explode all over. Pick a loco, F8 to start it up, and drive off. Or just drive off with no sound, it still runs even if you don't press F8 and start the sounds. My brand new Atls RS-3 only pauses for a few seconds before moving off when given throttle. --Randy
Randy, I hate to say this, because the cost for sound was quite a bit, but I now find that I don't use the sound unless I have guests looking at the layout. I don't know why, but even with the volume turned very low, I just don't feel like listening to it while I move cars and run trains myself.
At first, I thought it was great. Press F8, the diesel locomotive starts up. Accelerate and the engine sounds exactly like a real locomotive accelerating. It was neat -- at first.
I don't know -- maybe it's because I have a TV in my layout room, and the train sounds just add to the noise.
I'm sure most of you probably think I'm crazy.
Actually, John - I don't. I enjoy sound and it's fun - in doses. However, I tend to operating my locomotives with F8 muted. Since I have a plethora of switchers, I care much more how a locomotive starts out and operates at low speed than sound. And, given the choice? Motor-control over sound - ANY day of the week.
Wow, thanks for all the replies! I will try to attempt and respond to all of them.
Randy - Yes, I tested this and all 8 wheels do pick up individually, although its very picky. Ah, the flux makes sense. No, there was no flux sitting on two joints causing contact. I soldered the wires to the two copper strips coming out of the motor. The plastic is not distorted. I didnt bother opening up the motor up. The Commutator looks clean enough(normal wear). I did try to insulate the motor contacts further as I think the factory spacing between the motor brushes and the metal chassis isnt enough. Used some electrical tape.
Ed- Hi yes, given this was my first, I was really thrown off by that. I am still getting used to it. However, what Im talking about isn't this. The engine simply wont move at all(waited 60 seconds) until you push it(or even worse, sometimes you gotta remove the shell and push the flywheel a bit). I will take your advice though and change that CV.
Mark - I'll check that out. Thanks for the suggestion.
Thanks for the replies!
If the decoder seems to cut out and the locomotive stalls briefly at the place where the one feeder wire is, or a pair of them, I would carefully look at a high spot left by solder or the tip of the feeder wire up high enough to lift one of the wheels. Maybe even an uneven joint where two rails meet. Also, I only have a couple of modern diesels, two Athearn Genisis SD-75Ms. They are devils, those two. They find every teensy dip or rise in my rails, and if one rail is higher than the other on a curve, the super had better be very nicely crafted. Those long frames and long trucks (three axle in this case) don't do well on scale tracks that are not well placed on smooth roadbed.
Trainman440I did try to insulate the motor contacts further as I think the factory spacing between the motor brushes and the metal chassis isnt enough. Used some electrical tape.
Charles,
A suggestion: Do yourself a favor and purchase a roll of Kapton tape for insulating. Kapton tape is thinner, tougher, transparent, and will not leave a gooey mess when it gets warm, old - or both.
You can pick up a roll from online vendors like Litchfield Station for a reasonable price. I mainly use the 3/8" wide rolls but also have a roll of the 1/4".
FWIW...
I actually have Kapton tape...I have no clue why I didnt use it instead of my electrical tape...must of had a s**t to the brain haha
Good suggestion, I'll be sure to switch it out later.
Mark R.Another area of poor contact is between the axle tips and the contact strip on the back of the side frame.
In addition to this location be sure to look at where the bronze strips contact the springy contact points under the frame.
Kato_pickup by Edmund, on Flickr
Unless they made a change to the design my Kato diesels used "nubs" on the truck wheel pickups that contacted a bronse strip under the frame. Perhaps set the engine on a smooth flat surface and carefully look to make sure these nubs are clean and properly contacting that strip under the frame.
gmpullman Mark R. Another area of poor contact is between the axle tips and the contact strip on the back of the side frame. In addition to this location be sure to look at where the bronze strips contact the springy contact points under the frame. Kato_pickup by Edmund, on Flickr Unless they made a change to the design my Kato diesels used "nubs" on the truck wheel pickups that contacted a bronse strip under the frame. Perhaps set the engine on a smooth flat surface and carefully look to make sure these nubs are clean and properly contacting that strip under the frame. Good Luck, Ed
Mark R. Another area of poor contact is between the axle tips and the contact strip on the back of the side frame.
That was a really dumb idea for contact pick up. I've bypassed those contact strips by removing the frame strip and soldering lengths of flexible wire to the trucks which run through the channel where the contact strip was to the circuit board directly.
Certainly wires are better, but this isn't really that bad a system. Not only does it conduct power, it acts as a bit of a suspension system for the truck. And it allows for both easy assembly at the factory and easy disassembly for service. Looks like they adapted the common N scale way for HO. Could be worse - the outside bars, even though they have wires, on some Proto locos comes to mind, or the Athearn RTR design where the mating contact surfaces aren't even brass or bronze.