I'm building a new layout and want 2 train opperation on DC. is it as easy as putting insolated joiners on the crossover and use 2 transformers or is it more complicated than I think?
If you isolate (not 'insulate') each oval of tracks, and power each separately, yes, you can run two trains quite simply. It is when you go to move from one oval to another that things will become more dicey.
It depends on which way you have the locomotives moving on which of the two ovals. If you have the polarities matched, then the transition of one train to either loco should go relatively smoothly (you'd want decent separation between the trains and time to line the points back to 'through' after the last trailing car has gone through the points). But, if you have opposing polarities, with one train running clockwise, viewed from overhead, and the other moving in the opposite direction, you'll need some fancier switching to get things into matching polarity at the crossover. Other than that, I'm out of my wheelhouse as I operate strictly DCC and know it far better than DC. Perhaps Sheldon or someone else will help you with managing the crossovers.
Hello All,
As Albert Einstien was quoted, "Once you open a can of worms, the only way to get all the worms back in is to use a bigger can."
Ringo58I'm building a new layout and want 2 train opperation (SIC) on DC.
First I highly recommend getting the book "The Complete Atlas Wiring Book"; Atlas Publishing, 2011.
At less than $20.00; with shipping, it is money well invested, especially if you are running DC.
Without getting into why you are running DC over DCC for multiple locomotives, here's the "bigger can"...
The adage between DC and DCC has always been, "In DC you run the track, in DCC you run the locomotive(s)."
For multi-cab (multi-power pack) control in DC there needs to be "block control".
Before converting my 4'x8' pike to DCC- -which I should have adopted initially- -I had 16 control blocks. One block was as small as a single 9-inch section of track.
Ringo58(I)s it as easy as putting insolated joiners on the crossover and use 2 transformers or is it more complicated than I think?
Well, it depends...
If you only want to have separate control over the outer "mainline" and the inner trackage then yes, all you have to do is gap, or use isolating rail joiners, at the crossover turnouts.
One cab controls the outer "mainline" loop and the other cab controls all the track on the inner section. The drawback is if you want add a third locomotive on the inner section for switching duties you need to break the inner section down into blocks with separate control.
The diverging track to the engine house and RIP (Repair In Place) and/or service track could be a separate block. The two tracks to the freight house/co-op sidings could also be a separate block. A third block would be the track with the crossover from the diverging turnouts to the mill buildings.
If you wanted to further refine your operations this thrid block to the mill buildings could be broken down into the diverging tracks to the cross over and then separate blocks; fourth and fifth, to each leg of the mill complex.
All of this is a moot point with DCC.
To run multiple locomotives in DCC all you have to do is call up the locomotive and run it rather than flipping switches to control the power from which cab to which block.
None of this takes into account remote (electrical) control of the turnouts. That adds another layer of control and complexity.
When I first got back into this great hobby I thought DC would be cheaper. In the long run DCC turned out to be the better option over time.
The amount I spent on wire, controllers and cabs for DC operation would have been enough to get me into a starter DCC system.
Again, I highly recommend getting the Atlas book and do some research into DC vs. DCC.
Of course, there will be purists that will argue for DC.
Personally, knowing what I now know I should have adopted DCC right off the bat.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
DC user here...
IF you want to move trains from one loop to the other, AND you are not already comfortable with DC wiring and all that comes along with it... just go with DCC now.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 DC user here... IF you want to move trains from one loop to the other, AND you are not already comfortable with DC wiring and all that comes along with it... just go with DCC now. -Kevin
Actually, DCC can either complicate or greatly simplify wiring, Ringo. It depends what you want to accomplish on your layout.
Other than the occasional rail feeder, I was operating my 4 x 8 with only two wires...and that included three turnouts.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage Actually, DCC can either complicate or greatly simplify wiring, Ringo. It depends what you want to accomplish on your layout. Other than the occasional rail feeder, I was operating my 4 x 8 with only two wires...and that included three turnouts. Tom
Ringo58 Im also not a wiring genius. I can wire a lightbar to my truck no problem but I struggle with smaller wiring jobs
I really think you should go DCC, and as was said, you could conceivably wire the whole layout with just two wires.
DC is possible, but it would be much more complicated to do what you want.
These are my rules for whether or not to use DC wiring:
1) Are you already familiar with how to wire in DC and will not need any help?
2) Do you have a lot of equipment already that is DC?
3) Are you sure you never want sound and/or lighting effects?
Unless you can answer YES to ALL THREE questions (I can), you should go DCC.
Ringo58How many turnouts could you add? Is 9 too many? And I'm looking for basic opperation with some sound and all manual turnouts
I'm no expert -- I just started two years ago. I had no wiring ability.
I went DCC, and it has been very easy.
I'll add my vote for DCC.
York1 John
Ringo58 tstage Actually, DCC can either complicate or greatly simplify wiring, Ringo. It depends what you want to accomplish on your layout. Other than the occasional rail feeder, I was operating my 4 x 8 with only two wires...and that included three turnouts. Tom How many turnouts could you add? Is 9 too many? And I'm looking for basic opperation with some sound and all manual turnouts
How many turnouts could you add? Is 9 too many? And I'm looking for basic opperation with some sound and all manual turnouts
9 wouldn't be too many at all, Ringo. I had all manual turnouts (Fast Tracks) on my DCC layout and used Caboose Industries 220S ground throws to change the polarity because the turnouts had live frogs. The first ground throw took me a little time to assemble and mount properly but they worked flawlessly.
tstage Ringo58 tstage Actually, DCC can either complicate or greatly simplify wiring, Ringo. It depends what you want to accomplish on your layout. Other than the occasional rail feeder, I was operating my 4 x 8 with only two wires...and that included three turnouts. Tom How many turnouts could you add? Is 9 too many? And I'm looking for basic opperation with some sound and all manual turnouts 9 wouldn't be too many at all, Ringo. I had all manual turnouts (Fast Tracks) on my DCC layout and used Caboose Industries 220S ground throws to change the polarity because the turnouts had live frogs. The first ground throw took me a little time to assemble and mount properly but they worked flawlessly. Tom
Ringo58I thimk Im going to go the route of DCC. Always wnated it but didnt want to deal with it, but now it seems simple. So I just need feeders running around the layout with one power source and a cab?
You will run a "bus" around the layout, with feeders every 6' or so. Many add a feeder at 6', plus to each "piece" of track and/or solder rail joiners (to create longer "pieces") so the juice travels no more than 3', via robust connections, to the loco.
Your layout size will suffice with 16AWG bus (good to 25' runs)...feeders usually 22AWG at up to 18" or so. A 3A system will run about 6 newer (ballpark within 1/2 amp draw) moving (e.g., consisted) locos readily, so you might look at 3A systems such as the DigiTrax Zephyr or NCE Powercab, as you will not need a 5A system.
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/dcc-sound/starter-systems/
P.S. - I liked "The DCC Guide" booklet as my introduction to understanding DCC. After that, some websites are great for more detailed understanding as needed; e.g., reversing loops (which you do not have).
https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/book/12488
http://wiringfordcc.com/
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
tstage Ringo58 9 wouldn't be too many at all, Ringo. I had all manual turnouts (Fast Tracks) on my DCC layout and used Caboose Industries 220S ground throws to change the polarity because the turnouts had live frogs. The first ground throw took me a little time to assemble and mount properly but they worked flawlessly. Tom
Ringo58
Ringo58if I was using the atlas custom line code 83 manual turnouts, what wiring would need to be done to them? are the frogs insulated?
Unless they have changed since I used Atlas CL turnouts, you do not need to do anything special at all.
peahrens Ringo58 I thimk Im going to go the route of DCC. Always wnated it but didnt want to deal with it, but now it seems simple. So I just need feeders running around the layout with one power source and a cab? You will run a "bus" around the layout, with feeders every 6' or so. Many add a feeder at 6', plus to each "piece" of track and/or solder rail joiners (to create longer "pieces") so the juice travels no more than 3', via robust connections, to the loco. Your layout size will suffice with 16AWG bus (good to 25' runs)...feeders usually 22AWG at up to 18" or so. A 3A system will run about 6 newer (ballpark within 1/2 amp draw) moving (e.g., consisted) locos readily, so you might look at 3A systems such as the DigiTrax Zephyr or NCE Powercab, as you will not need a 5A system. https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/dcc-sound/starter-systems/ P.S. - I liked "The DCC Guide" booklet as my introduction to understanding DCC. After that, some websites are great for more detailed understanding as needed; e.g., reversing loops (which you do not have). https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/book/12488 http://wiringfordcc.com/
Ringo58 I thimk Im going to go the route of DCC. Always wnated it but didnt want to deal with it, but now it seems simple. So I just need feeders running around the layout with one power source and a cab?
Ringo58would the atlas power rail joiners ( forget what their called) work as feeders?
Yes, the Atlas rail joiners can be used. I see that there are code 100 & code 83 versions. Some folks here make their own. I guess it is possible that a powered joiner could be less reliable than a soldered feeder w/soldered joiners, IF the joiner was loose and corrosion developed.
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/atlas-ho-842-code-100-terminal-rail-joiners-1-pair/
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/atlas-ho-553-code-83-terminal-rail-joiners-1-pair/
It might help if we understood what track components you will use. One extreme would be all snap track short pieces. To power every piece of track would require scores of powered joiners. I suggest 3' flex track.
If using 3' flex track, things get simpler. A well installed powered joiner set every 6' would mean juice travelling through (higher resistance than wire) rail just 3' in any direction. Then one would want to address powering the turnouts as well.
I will use my example (a 5-1/2 x 9-1/2 ft layout). I soldered my rail joints, except at turnout connections. Note that soldering most joints can be an issue for expansion in unusual temperature / humidity swings, and can kink the rails if the roadbed (e.g., plywood) shrinks more than the metal rail. Not a problem in my clmate controlled setting, so I soldered away. So, I solder attached 22AWG solid wire feeders every 6', plus soldered most joiners. It is pretty easy, though necessary to use a heat sink (e.g., a pair of alligator clips) to keep from melting ties. I use a Weller gun for soldering rail joint and feeder wire connections. Be sure to tin the wire and rail first. A reason to practice first.
At turnouts, I left the joiners unsoldered to facilitate removal for replacement or maintenance (have not had to do that). So each turnout rail that needs it got feeder wires. (There are usually jumpers built into the turnout that connect the pieces that are always the same polarity.)
With DCC, you really want good connectivity so you do not get sound hiccups, etc. It is not that hard to install a conservative wiring system. That plus very careful track mounting (e.g., no kinks on curves or at straight / curve tangents) will minimize electrical issues, derailments, etc., and make for reliable operation.
I am reminded that making joints w/o kinks on flex track curves is assisted by soldering rail joints. One does the soldering, before extending the curve, with the track straight (ensuring no kink), then make the curve and attach the track to the base with a nice, smooth curve occurring through the joint.
Yes, they do work, but for a fraction of the price you can make your own with regular joiners, some wire, and a little time sitting at the workbench soldering them.
On my last layout, every rail joiner had a feed wire, except where an insulated gap was needed. This worked out quite well. Yes, eavh of the three legs of the Atlas turnouts got feeds. There were no power issues. I soldered every other section of flex together, basically laid it in 6 foot sections, then a terminal joiner to link to the next pair of flex track pieces, etc. And there were feeders at the soldered rail joints. Never had a power problem, even after painting the rails, including painting the joiners.
To do that at the price Atlas charges for the terminal joiners would have been crazy. DIY, it's the same as any other method of running feeders - you need rail joiners anyway, and you need wire for the feeders. By soldering at the bench, there's no chance of melting ties. The joiners won't melt, so a bit of ham fisted soldering won't really hurt. I did them assembly line fashion, I used a loosely twisted 2 pair wire for feeders, it's sold on a spool as alarm wire, about a #22, solid. First, I cut off lengths, made a stack of them - yes, they will be longer than you need but I wasn;t pulling off 6 foot lengths of wire. Maybe 2' - that would have been worst case if the track was on one edge of the benchwork and the bus was on the opposite of one of my 2' wide sections. In a section that short, this wire had maybe 1 or 2 twists at the most, so next step was to pull them apart and make two piles, one of each color. Then I went through and stripped one end of each wire. Using an automatic stripper like the Idea or Klein makes this go fast. Short length, less than the joiner length, stripped. Next, I bent the stripped end at 90 degrees to the wire. Then, with a pack of rail joiners (unused fresh ones - I keep a few for repeated reuse while fitting and measuring track, but final assembly is always with fresh unused ones for a tight fit), using a pair of "helping hands" I solder each wire to the bottom of a joiner. In an hour, I've made a few dozen pairs. I just kept a stock on hand, and if I ran low, I did another workbench stint and made more.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.