Botched a decoder installation

[tstage]

Update to thread can be found here:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/281856.aspx

[woodone]

Solder will only go where there is enough heat to make it flow, flux does help solder flow but going someplace where you don't place the tip of the soldering iron it not going to happen.

just a dap will do just fine.

[tstage]

richg1998

I have used the Weller WLC100 soldering station for some years. The wide plated tip for track feeders and fine conical tip for decoders.

Rich,

I have the WESD51 station and have been very happy with it, as well.

Tom

[rrinker]

 Best $50 I ever spent. I'm tempted to buy another, to keep downstairs on the layout and leave my existing one on the workbench upstairs.

                            --Randy

 

[richhotrain]

Thanks, Randy. I really need to break down and buy a soldering station.

Rich

[rrinker]

 Same way. There's about a 4 foot cord fromt he base to the handpiece of mine, so I can work over an 8 foot area without moving the base. With outlets spaced at frequent intervals around my space, I probably won't even need to use an extension cord. And stations like this heat up from cold in a minute or less. ANd if I was just using it, unplug for a couple of minutes to move to the next section - it won't be fully cooled and will be back at temp in seconds. 

                            --Randy

[richhotrain]

richg1998

I have used the Weller WLC100 soldering station for some years.

The wide plated tip for track feeders and fine conical tip for decoders.

I am curious about something, and I always mean to ask a question when I read about someone using a soldering station for mobile work such as moving around the layout to solder feeders to rails and buses.

When I do this type of soldering work, I rely on portability, a hand held soldering iron connected to an extension cord. How do you easily accomplish that task with a soldering station? 

Rich

[richg1998]

I am late in this discussion.

Good soldering is an acquired art.

I have been soldering since 1955. Started with a Heathkit AR-3 receiver, 95 watt gun, electrical solder and RS Rosin paste.

I have used the Weller WLC100 soldering station for some years. The wide plated tip for track feeders and fine conical tip for decoders.

I use Cardas Wire Quad Eutectic Silver Solder with rosin flux. It goes from liquid to solid very fast.

I do not worry about isolation since I stopped working with Mosfets many years ago.

Good luck.

Rich

[tstage]

John-NYBW

Did you contact ESU directly? I bought my decoders through Tony's Train Exchange. Their website says return products to the manufacturer and ESU's website says return them to the retailer so I have to wait until Monday to find out how to proceed. 

Does ESU have a customer service center in the US/North America or would I have to send it back to Germany?

John,

I purchased my Loksound Select Micro through Litchfield Station.  Debbie advised me to send the decoder back to the ESU - Service Department (1304 Jordan Avenue, Montoursville, PA 17754), along with a copy of my invoice and an explantation of what was wrong.  Alex Herman from ESU eventually got back to me and said that they would be sending me a replacement Lok 5 decoder - no charge.

Also, in your return explanation letter, be sure to include all of your current contact information - e.g. address, phone #, email, etc.  I would also include photos of any apparent burnt areas on the decoder.  Should the correspondence ever get separated from the decoder, the photos will help to confirm why you are returning the product.

Tom

[gmpullman]

John-NYBW

Does ESU have a customer service center in the US/North America

Yep. Matt Herman is the US rep.

[e-mail]

 

For the USA, Canada & Australia:

ESU LLC

1304 Jordan Ave

Montoursville Pennsylvania 17754

USA

Phone [phone] (Sales)

Fax [phone]

(Office hours: Monday through Friday, 8AM to 4PM (EST))

However, you might have to wait a while:

It is with much frustration that we must inform you that ESU LLC must close our USA business office until further notice due to a mandate from the Governor of Pennsylvania.

 

Good Luck, Ed

[John-NYBW]

rrinker

 ESU is ESU, TCS is TCS. Tom had Goof Proof on the brain 

Goof Proof is TCS's warranty name - meaning if the decoder is fried for whatever reason, even you doing something dumb

 

 

That would be me.

Did you contact ESU directly? I bought my decoders through Tony's Train Exchange. Their website says return products to the manufacturer and ESU's website says return them to the retailer so I have to wait until Monday to find out how to proceed. 

Does ESU have a customer service center in the US/North America or would I have to send it back to Germany?

[rrinker]

 The Xytronic station, and even my much older (no longer made) model both are ESD safe - ie, grounded tips. 

                                    --Randy

 

[John-NYBW]

gmpullman

 

John, I have lots of small-diameter heat-shrink tubing. Send me a PM with your address and I'll send you a supply.

Good Luck, Ed

 

Thanks for the offer but I'm not sure how the heat shrink tubing would work for my decoders. Here is the decoder that I bought 3 of from Tony's Train Exchange:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ESU-58821-LokSound-V-5-DCC-Direct-Blank-Decoder-Fits-in-almost-all-HO-Locos/352706288135?epid=2303733820&hash=item521eeeda07:g:oA0AAOSws9tdGi2Y:sc:USPSFirstClass!43080!US!-1

 

As you can see it has connections at both ends and the output connections are on the side. The outside end tabs receive the track power. The inside end tabs are for the headlights. Two of the side tabs are for the motor hookup and the other two connect to the speaker. 

[jjdamnit]

Hello All,

Sorry to hear about your decoder debacle.

After a 15-year career as an electrician I realized early on there is no substitute for a good tool.

With all this free time on my hands lately I have been doing a lot of decoder installs. I prefer to hardwire or solder them in place.

Years ago Weller® soldering stations were considered some of the best.

Recently I upgraded from a "pencil" type- -always-on, soldering iron to a Hakko FX-888D.

I did some internet research and found one for $100.00 at TEquipment.

Some will say this soldering station is an extravagance. One thing that sold me on this particular unit was it has a grounded tip.

This is important when working on things like decoders.

I have been impressed and satisfied with my "extravagant" purchase and would do it over again, despite others recommendations for a less expensive unit.

Hope this helps.

[gmpullman]

MisterBeasley

It's a simple mechanical device, like a spring loaded syringe in reverse.

I like braided desoldering wick, too. 

https://www.digikey.com/en/blog/how-and-when-to-use-solder-wick

This is the  silicone 30 ga. wire I mostly use for decoders. I bought some Digitrax stuff, too but this seemed to be a better value. The same Amazon outfit has another box with five other colors. I got both.

John, I have lots of small-diameter heat-shrink tubing. Send me a PM with your address and I'll send you a supply.

Good Luck, Ed

[tstage]

I actually prefer solder wick, which is a woven copper ribbon that will wick away the solder when it's heated with a soldering iron; leaving a much cleaner surface.

John & Randy - Sorry for the confusion.  TCS is the manufacturer with the goof proof policy.  ESU replaced a faulty Select decoder I had that got fried with a Loksound 5 decoder free of charge.  The only downside was having to wait for the release of the Lok 5 because there were no more Selects available from ESU.

Tom

[MisterBeasley]

A good gadget to have is a solder sucker.  It's a simple mechanical device, like a spring loaded syringe in reverse.  When you get too much solder on a connection, just reheat and remove the solder.

[rrinker]

 ESU is ESU, TCS is TCS. Tom had Goof Proof on the brain 

Goof Proof is TCS's warranty name - meaning if the decoder is fried for whatever reason, even you doing something dumb, they will replace it - the first time. Digitrax calls theirs the "No Worries Warranty" (do New Zealanders use the "no worries, mate" thing like Australians?) Others have their versions of the same sort of thing.

 Telehphone wire is usually somewhere around #24-#28, depending on what sort it is. It may be stranded or solid. Solid especially is not a good option for loco wiring. Decoder wire is much finer, strnaded, and typically has more strnads than generic wire of the same size, which makes it more flexible.

 I was thinking you probably can't get it on Amazon - but there it is:

https://www.amazon.com/Digitrax-Decoder-Installation-Wire-30AWG/dp/B004858N7A/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=decoder+wire&qid=1586619259&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&sr=8-1

At TWICE the price Tony's has it for.

                                      --Randy

 

[John-NYBW]

tstage

John,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

 

Even if you do not use one of their decoders, John, TCS has quite a number of decoder installations on their website to give you an idea of what you might expect installing a decoder in a particular manufacturer's locomotive.  I'd post a link to that page on the TCS website, unfortunately the TCS server seems to be down at the moment.

The other thing that your ohm meter will be handy for is to let you know if the locomotive's motor brushes are properly isolated from the chassis.  This can be an issue with older locomotives - even a few that have been manufactured in the past 30 years (e.g. Proto 2000 S1 switcher).

Lastly, I don't know what size wires you are using for your internal connections.  30-32 AWG is as large as you want to go for decoders and you should use stranded wire rather than solid wire.  The stranded wire is more flexible.  And manufacturers - like Miniatronics - make stranded wire in multiple color options that is VERY flexible.  The various colors are handy for color-coding your installations, which makes troubleshooting easier.

 

 

 

I had the same problem connecting to the TCS website. You said earlier you had a Loksound decoder replaced by TCS. As I understand it, Loksound is an ESU product. Does TCS sell ESU's products to the American market. If their website was up, I could probably find that answer myself. 

The wire I used I ripped out of old telephone wires. I have lots of that since I became a line cutter about 10 years ago. I don't know what gauge that is but I'm betting its larger than 30-32 AWG. It's also solid wire. I'll look on Amazon to see if I can find the appropriate wire. I've never found that at the big box stores but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place. 

 

[rrinker]

 SOunds like it was a board type decoder that fit on the mounting posts in the Atlas loco where the old 'board' was - with the mention of the light bars interfering, that leads me to believe this is an older Kato-made RS-1, so it had a plastic board over the motor and a single light bulb in the middle. The light bars have to be cut back on thos because they were designed to fit right down against the 'board' to conduct light from the single light bulb.

 The solder you have is likely way too large for this sort of thing. Even .032 is actually on the large side for the small pads on a decoder and the fine wire. I use .015 diameter rosin core solder for fine electronics. And most everything else, like soldering track feeds and soldering track sections together.

 You can get by with a simple iron, but soldering is MUCH more pleasant with a temperature controlled station. And it's not very expensive. Combined with a finer solder, you shouldn't get too much solder on a joint.

 Are you SURE the decoder is dead? Just sitting there on the bench, you aren't going to see any voltage out on the motor terminals and the ohm reading is going to be some rather random value, certainly not continuity (0 ohms).

 Another helpful tool would be some of the small clip leads, like these:

https://www.amazon.com/Sumnacon-Multimeter-Electrical-Test-Clips/dp/B07T2XX8PD/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=ic+clip+leads&qid=1586617512&sr=8-1

They are small enough to clip to the decoder without shorting, and you can then power up the decoder on the bench and test it.

 3X the price of the decoder to install it? That's insane for this loco. For something that needs extensive work to isolate the motor, ot where you have to mill out sections of the frame to fit the speaker, or to add all sorts of extra lighting, OK. But for a basic decoder speaker install in an Atlas/Kato loco? I'm in the wrong racket.. I sure hope that included extras, and not just the decoder and speaker plus putting LEDs in for the lights.

 Edit: since you replied while I was typing - unfortunately I don;t have any pictures of this type of loco that I've put a decoder in, but what I did was cut the strip from the motor off short on the side away from the decoder's motor terminals, and soldered on a short piece of wire to loop up over the motor. I didn't shrink wrap that connection, but I did put a piece of Kapton tape (you really want this - black electrical tape is NOT suitable for decoder installs, it's too thick and the adhesive is far too gooey - and moves around when warmed up) between the connection and the motor case so it wouldn't short. Use thin wire - when you first start installing decoders, you tend not to have extra decoder wire, but you can buy it from various sources, including Tony's. Use the approriate color when possible. Once you do some more, including decoders that come with wiring harnesses, you'll have leftover excess wire. I save all pieces longer than an inch or two, because for every loco where you are cutting off excess wire, there will be two that need longer wires.

                                        --Randy

 

[John-NYBW]

tstage

 

 

John-NYBW

Knowing what I know now, I would have put a piece of electric tape between the soldered connection and the motor housing. I think that would have prevented the disaster.

 

 

 

John,

Your Loksound decoder (I'm guessing a Lok 5) should have come shrink-wrapped from the manufacturer.  Therefore, the only part of the decoder that would have touched the motor housing would have been the uninsulated soldered connections between your track power and/or motor wires and the wires coming from your decoder.  Are you using any heatshrink to insulate those connections?  Or, was this a board-type Loksound decoder?

Also, Kapton tape is MUCH better and preferred to electrical tape for insulating.  It's thin (0.002" thick), very strong, tranparent, and comes in a variety of widths.  It's also handy for securing a decoder down onto your chassis and holds very well.  Electrical tape has a tendency to leave behind an adhesive residue when you try to remove it.

I've also found that 3M double-sided foam tape (in 1/2" squares) works really well in applications where you have to secure a decoder to the top of the rounded motor housing.

HTH...

Tom

 

It's a board type Loksound 5 model 58821. Tony's sent me the same decoder for all three locos and just programmed different sound for the C-Liners. I'm pretty sure the culprit is the motor connection. There is one on each side of the motor housing and the one that was opposite the decoder tabs required me to run a short wire across the decoder. I'm betting that when I snapped the shell on it pulled that connection against the metal part of the housing creating the short. 

I have electrical tape handy and if necessary I could put two layers. I'm guessing that would do the trick. 

The way the decoder snaps into place leaves about an 1/8 gap between the motor and the bottom of the decoder board so that shouldn't be an issue. 

[tstage]

John-NYBW

Knowing what I know now, I would have put a piece of electric tape between the soldered connection and the motor housing. I think that would have prevented the disaster.

John,

Your Loksound decoder (I'm guessing a Lok 5) should have come shrink-wrapped from the manufacturer.  Therefore, the only part of the decoder that would have touched the motor housing would have been the uninsulated soldered connections between your track power and/or motor wires and the wires coming from your decoder.  Are you using any heatshrink to insulate those connections?  Or, was this a board-type Loksound decoder?

Also, Kapton tape is MUCH better and preferred to electrical tape for insulating.  It's thin (0.002" thick), very strong, tranparent, and comes in a variety of widths.  It's also handy for securing a decoder down onto your chassis and holds very well.  Electrical tape has a tendency to leave behind an adhesive residue when you try to remove it.

I've also found that 3M double-sided foam tape (in 1/2" squares) works really well in applications where you have to secure a decoder to the top of the rounded motor housing.

HTH...

Tom

[BigDaddy]

I have the soldering station Paul suggested, originally heard about it from Randy.

There is an issue of judgement, with too thick a wire or too much solder or flux, which practice helps and then there is an issue with unsteady hands, an issue I share with David Popp.  I make use of the alligator clip "helping hands" to either hold the wire, or steady the soldering iron. 

Larry (The DCC Guy) Puckett's youtube videos show he doesn't need helping hands.  Some of us do.

[richhotrain]

John-NYBW

I asked the rep at Tony's Train Exchange what it would cost to have them install the decoders and he gave me a ballpark estimate that was almost triple the cost of the decoder. Even if I destroy one before I do it right, it's still less expensive to do it myself. Knowing what I know now, I would have put a piece of electric tape between the soldered connection and the motor housing. I think that would have prevented the disaster. If TCS makes good on its goof proof warranty, that makes it even better.

I am not at all sure that I agree with your point of view.

First, there is no reason to destroy the first one before getting the second one right. Practice beforehand so that you get the first one right. Otherwise, there is no assurance that you will get the second one right.

Second, don't use electrical tape as an insulator. It is too thick and too sticky. Get your hands on some Kapton tape.

Third, get some basswood or balsa wood and create a mockup of the same dimensions as the decoder and speaker(s) to make sure that the assembly will fit under the shell.

Rich

 

[tstage]

John,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

For fine work like electronics, a temperature-control soldering iron is best because you can adjust the temperature to the task that you are using it for.  Adjustable soldering irons operate in the 350-850F range.  For soldering decoders and wires, I solder at 650-700F using 60/40 rosin flux solder.  Your "always ON" iron is going to be at 850F or >, which is just too hot for soldering small wires to decoders.

The adjustable Xytronics iron (that Paul provided the handy link for) would be a much better choice.  The lower temps will help to preserve the plating of the tip on the iron.  The tips should also be interchangable/replaceable; allowing you to use a tip that is appropriate for your task, as well as tossing it when the tip wears out.  I've had a Weller soldering station for about 10 years now and I'm still using the original chisel tip.

Even if you do not use one of their decoders, John, TCS has quite a number of decoder installations on their website to give you an idea of what you might expect installing a decoder in a particular manufacturer's locomotive.  I'd post a link to that page on the TCS website, unfortunately the TCS server seems to be down at the moment.

The other thing that your ohm meter will be handy for is to let you know if the locomotive's motor brushes are properly isolated from the chassis.  This can be an issue with older locomotives - even a few that have been manufactured in the past 30 years (e.g. Proto 2000 S1 switcher).

Lastly, I don't know what size wires you are using for your internal connections.  30-32 AWG is as large as you want to go for decoders and you should use stranded wire rather than solid wire.  The stranded wire is more flexible.  And manufacturers - like Miniatronics - make stranded wire in multiple color options that is VERY flexible.  The various colors are handy for color-coding your installations, which makes troubleshooting easier.

Tom

[John-NYBW]

richhotrain

John, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but you are not ready to install sound decoders.

Since you already acknowledge that you are not competent to solder electronics, the last thing you want to attempt is the installation of an expensive sound decoder.

Also, you need to get yourself a "pencil-type" soldering iron and a roll of high quality rosin core 60/40 tin/lead solder, preferably a small diameter like 0.03".

Since you have fried the decoder, use it as a practice electronics board. Get some thin gauge wire and practice soldering and desoldering. Speaking from experience, I can assure you that soldering is not rocket science. Practice makes perfect.

Rich

 

I asked the rep at Tony's Train Exchange what it would cost to have them install the decoders and he gave me a ballpark estimate that was almost triple the cost of the decoder. Even if I destroy one before I do it right, it's still less expensive to do it myself. Knowing what I know now, I would have put a piece of electric tape between the soldered connection and the motor housing. I think that would have prevented the disaster. If I can get a warranty replacement as tstage said he did, that is even better. 

[richhotrain]

Good advice, Paul.

With regard to flux, I never use it on decoder installations or other soldering tasks on electronics boards. Too much risk of spreading solder where I don't want it.

Rich

[peahrens]

If installing decoders, I highly suggest one of these.  Costs less than a decoder.

https://www.amazon.com/Xytronic-LF-389D-Mini-Type-Digital-Soldering/dp/B00E4WUN8O

Several folks here have this one.  I had a always on Radio Shack pencil iron, which got too hot and burned up the tip, and a tip replacement was not to be had.  I tried a Harbor Freight cheapie and it was hot, hot.

I got this guy, which several folks here recommended.  It's great.  I got a couple of replacement tips but the original stays just fine.  So extra tips (1) can be obtained and (2) probably only need initially if you want a certain shape.  If you want to order with other tip(s), check out Jameco.

One of these will really give you a leg up on developing your soldering skills. 

P.S. - I use flux, which helps, but some may avoid that.

[richhotrain]

John, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but you are not ready to install sound decoders.

Since you already acknowledge that you are not competent to solder electronics, the last thing you want to attempt is the installation of an expensive sound decoder.

Also, you need to get yourself a "pencil-type" soldering iron and a roll of high quality rosin core 60/40 tin/lead solder, preferably a small diameter like 0.03".

Since you have fried the decoder, use it as a practice electronics board. Get some thin gauge wire and practice soldering and desoldering. Speaking from experience, I can assure you that soldering is not rocket science. Practice makes perfect.

Rich