Mel,
.
I imagine there are different styles of power routhing. All I have used are old style Shinohara/Walthers power routing turnouts with solid metal frogs.
With these turnouts, the frog, points, closure rails, and all rails through the frog will have the same polatity, based on which stock rail the points are in contact with.
The route the points are aligned with will have both positive and negative, so the locomotive will run. on the other route, both rails will either both be positive or both be negative, so the locomotive will not run.
This does not work well with DCC because even tracks where a locomotive is stopped, it should still have power.
The easiest way to make DCC work with power routing solid metal frogs was to gap both rails just beyond the frog and run jumper wires to keep all rails powered. Then, Walthers/Shinohara released the "DCC Friendly" turnouts which are not power routing.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I just added a picture to my previous post.
Remember, I am only sure about this configuration with old style Walthers/Shinohara turnouts.
I've tried explaining this several times around these forums. Seems there should be a sticky for this.
Peco doesn't help things with their terminology. Insulfrog or Electrofrog and now I guess they have a Universal Frog "Uni-Frog" .
https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Unifrog
Early turnouts that were scratch made were generally power routing because it was difficult to insulate the frog. Thus the current passed to the frog through whichever point rail was in contact with the stock rail.
Power had to be fed from the point end of the turnout because, yes, the two rails of the non-selected route were the same polarity, thus would cause a short. In any case where two power routing turnouts faced each other "frog-to-frog" you had to have an insulated gap somewhere between them.
Power routing turnout points are electrically common whereas all-live turnout points are insulated from each other.
IMG_8651_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
The upper turnout is power routing (solid metal tie-bar) and below is an all-live (AKA DCC "Friendly") insulated tie bar.
After plastic insulated frogs came along (Atlas Snap Switch) the All Live turnout was a popular choice because you could snap them into place and not be concerned with any special wiring "rules".
Good Luck, Ed
Kevin's picture says it all. The route not selected has both rails the same polarity, so nothing moves past the turnout.
The normal use of these feature depends on the other trackage.
On a main line, you would put a gap somewhere past the frog. And then feed that next section seperately. If the gap is far enough past the frog, this turns into collision protection. A train approaching from the frog end would hit the dead spot if the turnout is not aligned to that route......
A dead end siding needs no gap past the frog, when the trunout is aligned to the siding , it is powered, aligned to the main, the siding is dead.
Pretty simple actually.
All the turnouts on my first layout were TruScale all rail turnouts with these features - learned all this when I was 10.......
Sheldon
gmpullmanPeco doesn't help things with their terminology. Insulfrog or Electrofrog and now I guess they have a Universal Frog.
so this description of "power routing" is not commonly accepted
The PECO Insulfrog is a power routing turnout. The term Power Routing indicates that only the route selected by the switch rails has power. The other rails are dead.
... but could be useful
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I only dabble with the electronics aspect of the hobby, and Kevin's picture depicts my understanding of the power routing turnout.
Power routing turnout's, IMO, are primarily useful on DC layouts. An example that I understand is when two trains are approaching a passing siding from the opposite directions, one train can park on the siding when the power is routed to the siding. Then the turnouts are thrown back to the main line where the other train can pass and the parked train doesn't move because the power is not routed to the siding. Then as the second train moves on (probably to another DC block), the turnouts are thrown back to the siding, which powers it, and the train moves on.
I'm sure there are other useful applications of such a turnout, but I tend to run one train on the layout so having every track powered doesn't cause issues. Its something I've really never had to deal with.
- Douglas
gregc gmpullman Peco doesn't help things with their terminology. Insulfrog or Electrofrog and now I guess they have a Universal Frog. so this description of "power routing" is not commonly accepted The PECO Insulfrog is a power routing turnout. The term Power Routing indicates that only the route selected by the switch rails has power. The other rails are dead. ... but could be useful
gmpullman Peco doesn't help things with their terminology. Insulfrog or Electrofrog and now I guess they have a Universal Frog.
Because I don't use PECO turnouts, and don't have any on hand to test, and don't want to rely on old product info or memories from years ago, I have stayed out of the Richard/PECO/power routing conversation for the most part.
Not to mention that I don't use DCC, despite my knowledge of how it works, I will leave that conversation to those who have the latest PECO track in hand.
Personally, I have never cared for their sprung throwbar or their electrical approaches.
But original old school DC power routing with turnouts made completely from rail work like Kevin's diagram.
Today, I don't rely on turnout points to direct or carry power anywhere. Back in the day it was ALWAYS a point of failure and maintenance.
I am happy to have the simple ATLAS feed thru wiring and use relay contacts for the power routing......
Plenty of people have previously posted that they use old Shinohara turnouts with DCC. Back in the day I powered the frogs of those with Rix Rack switch machines and DC track power. The frog rails were connected with insulating rail joiners. The diverging route was powered by a separate toggle switch, not the position of the points.
I still have a handful of the Rix machines and a couple of the turnouts, though they were damaged in the salvage process. Maybe one of the turnouts is still usable. I never liked the snap ot the Rix.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I'm not meaning to be critical here, but I can sense some of Ed's frustration with those who don't have "old school" DC experiance.
I realize many of you just don't care how we did it "back in the dark ages", but Paul Mallery's two books on wiring would be a good place for many to learn some valueable basics......
And I know many of you think I'm nuts with my DC and relays.........but my trains can't run red signals, I have ATC, and it was free.......
BigDaddy Plenty of people have previously posted that they use old Shinohara turnouts with DCC. Back in the day I powered the frogs of those with Rix Rack switch machines and DC track power. The frog rails were connected with insulating rail joiners. The diverging route was powered by a separate toggle switch, not the position of the points. I still have a handful of the Rix machines and a couple of the turnouts, though they were damaged in the salvage process. Maybe one of the turnouts is still usable. I never liked the snap ot the Rix.
Yes, as I posted above, there are a number of ways to wire live frog turnouts, and gaps past the frog is typical in any mainline situation.
Only a dead end siding benifits from full power routing.
That is the same thing. Almost. It's always just the two center rails tha tmeet at the frog that switch polarity or get cut off, since the curved stock rail comign from the points is all one peice of rail, and the straight stock rail from the poitn side is one peice of rail. Those rails are always conencted to some feed somewhere.
The only difference in what happens to the two diverging rails past the frog depends on how the rest of the turnotu is constructed. If the two poitn rails are insualted form one another, as in the Insulfrog, and there are no internal jumpers between the stock rails and the diverging frog rails like you find in an Atlas turnout (non power routing), then the diverging frog rail linked to the open point will be an isolated section of rail, not conencted to either side of the power supply, while the other one is going to be the same polarity as the stock rail which the closed point it touching. You can have feeders on the diverging frog raisl of such turnouts without gaps, which defeats the power routing, but would not cause a short.
On the other hand, if the two point rails are electrically tied together, liek the original Shonohara and Walthers turnouts, Then BOTH diverging frog rails, both points, and both closure rails will have the same polarity as the stock rail which the closed point is touching. This on the unselected route, both rails might be connected to rail A of the power supply, so nothing will move, there is no potential across the rails, but they are conencted to something. Throw the points the other way, and both diverging frog rails are now connected to rail B. So you cannot just put feeders on the diverging frog rails without adding gaps. One diverging rail has to be rail A, and th other rail B, and since they are electrically connected, you have an instant short.
The frog type does not matter, really. You can wire a turnout to be either type of power routing, and still have either an insualted frog or a powered frog that gets power from the point rails. You can easily have a plastic frog but have the two point rails tied together. You can just as easily have a metal frog, but the point rails are NOT tied together.
The best illustrations are probably on the Wiring for DCC site, which shows various brands of turnouts and where the jumpers are that change them from oen type to another. Cuttign the stock jumpers on an Electrofrog and adding the two in the spaces provided takes it from the type of turnout where both point rails are connected to one where the point rails as isolated from one another, with a metal frog that is isolated from the closure rails, but connected to the two diverging rails - so insulated joiners are stil needed on the frog end before any feeders connect to those diverging rails. The power to the frog, through contacts, or toggles, or a Frog Juicer, provides power to the diverging rails up to the gaps.
The only thing I disagree with Ed on is the need for the points to be tied together to make a power routing turnout. They do not have to be. If they poinr tails ARE tied together with a metal throwbar, then almsot always the turnotu is power routing (a little thought will find a way that this does not have to be so - it just requires a sliver of plastuic where the two diverging rails come together, plus a pair of jumpers from the stock rails to the opposite side diverging frog rails), but the opposite is not true - insulated point rails to not automatically mean the turnout does not do power routing.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
seems likes there are two significant options (i'm sure there are more)
maybe i confuse powering a frog with "power routing"
gregcseems likes there are two significant options (i'm sure there are more)
All live or power routing. I agree.
https://dccwiki.com/Turnout
gregc (this routes power to the frog)
Generally, the all live turnout has an isolated frog, sometimes made of plastic so there is no reason to try to power it. Other all-live designs have a metal frog but is electrically isolated from the stock or closure rails so an additional method of bringing current to the frog is an option. Some modelers with long wheelbase locomotives or short frogs may never need to supply power to the frog.
Itherwise, the frog may be powered but the frog polarity has to change to match the polarity of the closure rail thus the use of auxiliary electrical devices (SPDT switch or "frog juicer) to change the frog polarity.
Randy is correct that some power routing turnouts do not have the point rails joined as my photo implies. The Shinohara brand does join the point rails electrically. Walthers also added confusion to the field by coining that "DCC Friendly" term to indicate an all-live turnout.
Code83T by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
Cheers, Ed
seems that "power routing" and "dcc friendly" share features.
i thought DCC friendly turnouts avoid the possibility of a short between the unused points rail and stock rail by an out of gage wheel.
A common approach is to isolate the points rails from the frog and power them from the adjacent stock rail. Powering the frog must use some other mechanism
unpowering the unused points rail is an alternate approach and it looks like the approach taken by Peco if the frog rails are not externally powered.
gregc seems likes there are two significant options (i'm sure there are more) "power routing" does not provide power to one of the frog rails (and maybe the unused point rail) for the purpose of un-powering a spur, for example the point rail making contact with the stock rail provides power with specific polarity to the points and the frog. (this routes power to the frog) maybe i confuse powering a frog with "power routing"
Greg,
Here is the fly in the onitment.
Not all manufacturers internally wire turnouts the same. There are no turnout wiring "police".
In the old days, there were no totally isolated frogs. The all rail metal frog was electrically and mechanically part of the closure rails, the points and the frog rails past the frog.
And yes, the open point rail and the stock rail were opposite polarity.
Again see Kevin's drawing, I don't do computer drawings....
Then ATLAS (and others) made plastic frogs and jumped the wiring under the frog, keeping the two points/closure rails, and the frog rails past the frog, isolated from each other. There by eliminating power routing, and the need for gaps after the frog.
Then ATLAS (and others) totally isolated a metal frog, kept the jumpers, and created the option to power the unpowered metal frog.
Then others (like PECO) included jumpers, that can be removed to make the turnout behave in various different ways, and build both metal frog and plastic frog versions of same.
Think about it, draw a picture If you scratch built a single turnout completely from metal rail and installed it in a simple loop of track, and hooked up a simple DC power pack, as soon as you threw the switch to the diverging route you would have a short circuit.
You would be connecting the left rail to the right rail.
But if you simply cut a gap in the frog rail past the frog, everything would work fine. The train cannot travel over the turnout from the frog direction when set for the diverging route, so the two rails being the same polarity in that situation has no effect.
The gap eleminates the short and allows the loop to be correctly fed from the other direction.
With DC and live frog turnouts you need to know where to put feeders and were to cut gaps.
With ATLAS turnouts the points and closure rails are always electrically connected to their associated stock rail no matter the position of the points. There is no power routing effect and no dead sections except the frog - until you power it and control its polarity based on the postion of the points.
Other brands are different.........or have options.
when i build turnouts, the point/closure rails and frog are electrically connected. I don't connect the frog rails to the adjacent rails (gap). I rely on the point rail contact with the stock rail (not so reliable).
while not "DCC friendly", i'd consider this power routing (as well as routing power to the frog) and works fine with DCC.
seems that a spur could be power routed by either NOT powering a rail or making both spur rails the same polarity (and voltage).
seems there are various ways these features (i.e. "power routing", "DCC friendly") can be implemented, so these terms are ambiguous.
gregc when i build turnouts, the point/closure rails and frog are electrically connected. I don't connect the frog rails to the adjacent rails (gap). I rely on the point rail contact with the stock rail (not so reliable). while not "DCC friendly", i'd consider this power routing (as well as routing power to the frog) and works fine with DCC. seems that a spur could be power routed by either NOT powering a rail or making both spur rails the same polarity (and voltage). seems there are various ways these features (i.e. "power routing", "DCC friendly") can be implemented, so these terms are ambiguous.
Correct, you are building turnouts the "old way".
PECO turnouts do not work that way, they combine the features of getting power from the closed points with the feature of the jumpered or isolated frog.
But I believe that depends on what you do with the jumpers underneith.
There are options.
Power routing and DCC friendly are not ambiguous, they simply are two seperate features which may or maynot exist in the particular wiring scheme of a particular turnout.
Richard has understood what Mel has been suggesting and now has a partial solution to his problem in the other thread.
He now needs help with bipolar LED's, on which I am not an expert.
I am glad no one has mentioned how a Kato Unitrack turnout can be set up for power routing... that might make all your heads explode!
By the way... Kato's turnouts work great in power routing configuration.
SeeYou190 I am glad no one has mentioned how a Kato Unitrack turnout can be set up for power routing... that might make all your heads explode! . By the way... Kato's turnouts work great in power routing configuration. . -Kevin .
Now there is a product I have no experiance with, and no interest in.
Like everything they make, I'm sure the "quality" is very high. But to me it looks like what it is, toy train set track, Rolls Royce toy train set track, but toy train set track none the less.
For the one place I need or want that, under the tree, my much less expensive Bachmann EZ track works just fine.
But I admit a bias, I don't own any KATO products. Their selection of HO products is so limited, nothing they make has ever interested me.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLike everything they make, I'm sure the "quality" is very high. But to me it looks like what it is, toy train set track, Rolls Royce toy train set track, but toy train set track none the less.
Staring with my friend Randy's NORFOLK SOUTHERN N scale layout, we have used Kato Unitrack for all hidden trackage, and this has been a major improvement in all railroad operations.
I would strongly suggest you consider it for hidden trackage on your next layout.
It is available in enough curve radius options to satisfy any need, their #6 turnouts are silky-smooth, and the quality control is top-notch.
We don't glue down the hidden trackage, but we use 5/16" wooden cubes glued in place to guide it. If anything ever needs maintenance it is a very simple matter to snap out the offending track and snap in a new one.
I don't know why anyone would ever use anything but Unitrack for a helix.
RR_Mel Could some one please explain Power Routing to me. After trying to answer some Forum post about turnouts I decided I need a definition of exactly what power routing is to a model railroad. Mel
My only hands on experience with Peco turnouts is with the Insulfrog. But before describing the Insulfrog, let me say that Kevin's drawing is the way that the Peco Electrofrog works, but not the Insulfrog. Because the Insulfrog frog is an isolated, dead, plastic frog, power does not flow through the frog, so there is never a situation where both rails on a section of track are of the same polarity.
To begin with, there is continuity throughout each rail segment on the Peco Insulfrog. Each stock rail is a single piece of rail, thus continuity. There is also continuity from each frog rail through the closure rail to the point rail.
The Peco Insulfrog is a true power routing turnout as long as the turnout is only powered by feeder wires on the tail end of the turnout. If the other two ends of the turnout are powered, the power routing feature is defeated.
So, with only the tail end powered and the other two ends gapped, the Insulfrog turnout is only powered along the selected route by the selected point rail picking up power from the adjacent stock rail.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain RR_Mel Could some one please explain Power Routing to me. After trying to answer some Forum post about turnouts I decided I need a definition of exactly what power routing is to a model railroad. Mel The Peco Insulfrog is a true power routing turnout as long as the turnout is only powered by feeder wires on the tail end of the turnout. If the other two ends of the turnout are powered, the power routing feature is defeated.
Good explanation Rich, at least it was for me.
I would add to your above comment that, as you know, powering any other leg of any turnout would defeat its power routing nature. That's why modeler's cut gaps for turnouts back in the day before insulfrog, to keep the power from the opposing leg fouling the frog and causing a short. I always power each leg of a turnout (sometimes by soldering it to track that is powered) because I am concerned about the durability of its structure, including Atlas and Shinohara.
I'm not sure why PECO feels there is a benefit to having a power routing insulfrog turnout. It's never been a consideration for any of my layouts, but my choice of layout type might be different from many.
Doughless I'm not sure why PECO feels there is a benefit to having a power routing insulfrog turnout. It's never been a consideration for any of my layouts, but my choice of layout type might be different from many.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like everything they make, I'm sure the "quality" is very high. But to me it looks like what it is, toy train set track, Rolls Royce toy train set track, but toy train set track none the less. . Staring with my friend Randy's NORFOLK SOUTHERN N scale layout, we have used Kato Unitrack for all hidden trackage, and this has been a major improvement in all railroad operations. . I would strongly suggest you consider it for hidden trackage on your next layout. . It is available in enough curve radius options to satisfy any need, their #6 turnouts are silky-smooth, and the quality control is top-notch. . We don't glue down the hidden trackage, but we use 5/16" wooden cubes glued in place to guide it. If anything ever needs maintenance it is a very simple matter to snap out the offending track and snap in a new one. . I don't know why anyone would ever use anything but Unitrack for a helix. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like everything they make, I'm sure the "quality" is very high. But to me it looks like what it is, toy train set track, Rolls Royce toy train set track, but toy train set track none the less.
I will, not comment on N scale, I have zero practical experiance.
But based on cost, and available track lengths, and available radius curves, Unitrack is a non starter.
My minimum mainline radius, even for hidden track, is 36". Much of the layout will have curves well above that radius. The fixed radius of Unitrack does not suit my engineering requirements, period.
The geometry of the turnouts is too limiting, even for hidden track
Some more thoughts:
A turnout that is gaped on the diverging side of the frog, with no jumpers to power the track past the gaps, would not be considered power routing. The only power past the frog is from feeders connected there, nothing to 'route'. Even if the point and closure rails connect to the frog, and power the frog. That just means it has a powered frog.
The DCC Friendly term doesn't indicate power routing one way or the other. It simply means the two point rails are isolated from one anoother, so the open one is either dead, or at the same polarity as the adjacent stock rail. The reason for doing this is that if you want to have a close to prototypically narrow open point rail gap, instead of a big giant toy train size gap, it's very easy for the backs of metals wheels to contact the open point rail. If both point rails are the same polarity as the closed point, then this is a short. With DC, not a problem, usually, because most DC power packs have rather slow acting circuit breakers, and the voltage falls off sharply at the current limit, which for a typical power pack is 2 amps or less. And unless you are running flat out, you're not at full voltage on the rails, so the total power goign in to the short is usually under 20 watts. What usually happens is the loco coasts a bit, the short is cleared, and the train just keeps rolling right along. You might see the spark if you turn out the lights.
With DCC though, you might have 5 amps, and a 5 amp system, really can deliver 5 amps at full voltage. That's 70-75 watts at typical HO track voltage, more than enough heat to melt plastic. As such, the DCC system has a VERY fast acting electronic circuit breaker. So that momentary short stops everything dead.
Modeling a railroad hypothetically set in time.