basementdwellerProblem resolved!!!!
I'm glad you found the problem. I'm also glad that my first analysis was correct!!! (He says boastfully!!)
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
LION has a big red lamp. A 12 volt automotive lamp. It is in series with the railroad.
If the light comes on there is a short (and the lamp is using the power and protecting the equipment.
When the lamp goes out there are no more shorts.
Either that or you just blew out the main circuit breaker at the power companies main generating plant.
ROARING
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Reminds me of the club I was once involved in.
Guys were doing a "good deed" by picking up Peco turnouts at various hobby shops, flea markets and such. After a while there were insul- electro- frog turnouts mixed in everywhere.
The "track supervisor" said it was ok to use them but only use the electrofrog on stub-end tracks. Well, before long they were everywhere and a different bunch of guys were doing the wiring without regard to type of turnout.
A real mess...
Glad you got to your source of problems. Yes, use the meter often. The Electrofrogs will be fine on short stub sidings OR gap and feed per power-routing rules.
Good Luck, Ed
basementdweller Problem resolved!!!! thank you for everyone's assistance. Had a bit of time this evening so I read these posts again and got to work. One comment stuck in my head "do I have a mix of electro frog and insulfrog" I thought not but it turns out I did.
Problem resolved!!!!
thank you for everyone's assistance. Had a bit of time this evening so I read these posts again and got to work. One comment stuck in my head "do I have a mix of electro frog and insulfrog" I thought not but it turns out I did.
Just kidding. Glad you persisted and found the problem.
Rich
Alton Junction
All you have too do is put insulated joiners oon the two center diverging rails. All 4 diverging rails if you want belts and suspenders. And then the Electroofrogs will be just fine, no shorts. You just can't have power feeds on the frog side - thus the insulated joiners. Power feeds past the insulated joiners are fine.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
You could just isolate the frogs and keep the electro's.
Martin Myers
My switching layout has 33 turnouts, turns out I had 4 electrofrog's. I had no idea. I removed the electrofrog turnouts and now I have no short circuit between rail A and Rail B.
Another evening I will replace these 4 turnouts and press on with bus wiring and feeders, checking as I go!
I may still get that track plan up on here just for some feedback. My time is limited and so I try to focus on working on the layout.
Work fro the power supply forward.
Try test leads directly from the power supply to a light bulb or a locomotive.
If short stop and fix else apply wires to Power Pack to sing length of track
TEST > If short replace the wires else test trach 1 without switchg
TEST > If short scratch head. Replace track
Etc.
But do it systematicall from oneplace to the next
The LION uses brads in wood instead of terminal blocks.
Once upon a time the shor was in two nails touching inside the wood.
Go Ahead... Find that one!
I have used both Electro & Insul frogs turnouts from Peco & I have never heard of bonding needed under Insulfrog. Yes, one can add switches to bond blades to stock rails so the tabs on the Code 100 turnouts ( which are no longer on the new versions) are electrically paralleled.
Ron
All comments are appreciated. I plan to do some checks, if I have no luck then I will get a track plan posted.
As I used to say at work finding software bugs when people would ask me how I recognized the problem, "Every mistake I find is one I've made myself many times before."
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
basementdwellerso far trouble shooting has involved me dividing the layout into two seperate sections and both independent sections have a short.
if there appear to be a multitude of shorts, a different tack is to just find one short to better understand the cause. Once you understand the cause, you can make changes w/o locating each and every short.
this is more than desperate. It may make sense to make sure there isn't a short on some small isolated section of track that you're pretty sure doesn't have a short -- a length of straight track.
Then add another section with a single turnout and check for a short. try the turnout in both positions.
repeat
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
basementdweller Rich, you are correct that I hooked up two wires from my DCC system directly to the rails to test the track. It indicated a short circuit. My multimeter shows continuity between rail A and rail B. There has to be a track geometry issue but I had though that insulfrog turnouts avoided that issue. Maybe not. As always time is an issue when it come to reading these posts and getting to apply it to the RR. I hope to get a bit of time over the weekend and do some trouble shooting. Just to mention, I have visually inspected the track and vacuumed the track for any debris that may have caused the issue. I will run a strong magnet over it too. Who knows. Then I will start dividing the layout to smaller areas. Thanks again.
Rich, you are correct that I hooked up two wires from my DCC system directly to the rails to test the track. It indicated a short circuit. My multimeter shows continuity between rail A and rail B.
There has to be a track geometry issue but I had though that insulfrog turnouts avoided that issue. Maybe not.
As always time is an issue when it come to reading these posts and getting to apply it to the RR. I hope to get a bit of time over the weekend and do some trouble shooting.
Just to mention, I have visually inspected the track and vacuumed the track for any debris that may have caused the issue. I will run a strong magnet over it too. Who knows. Then I will start dividing the layout to smaller areas.
Thanks again.
And, are you absolutely certain those Peco turnouts are Insulfrogs, not Electrofrogs?
As I say, if the layout is simply constructed of flex track with Insulfrog turnouts and there are no reversing sections or loops, no bus, and no feeders, it would be pretty difficult to create a short. Not impossible, but pretty difficult.
Maybe without a track plan that is the way to analyze the problem. Try to imagine such a scenario in which a short would occur.
gmpullman richhotrain How does a continuity meter show a short? A continuity test simply establishes whether there is an electrical path between two points. Um, place a probe on rail A, place the second probe on rail B. No beep, no short.
richhotrain How does a continuity meter show a short? A continuity test simply establishes whether there is an electrical path between two points.
Um, place a probe on rail A, place the second probe on rail B.
No beep, no short.
OK, I deserved that. What I meant to say is that a continuity test is not going to pinpoint the short on that layout. Where is the short?
richhotrainHow does a continuity meter show a short? A continuity test simply establishes whether there is an electrical path between two points.
Lay a 25¢ coin across rail A and B. The meter beeps, you have a short.
That's how I use the meter anyway.
They are extremely helpful when trying to sort out which side of a wheel/axle is insulated or is your locomotive frame in contact with the left or right rail.
Checking motor/brush isolation before wiring a locomotive for a decoder is another handy use for a beeping continuity meter.
Lots of uses. I also use a continuity meter when wiring up power to a frog using the SPDT switch on a switch machine. I want to be sure the points leading to the frog are at the same continuity that the electrical switch is providing from the common. The meter tells me when I have it correctly wired, no guessing.
basementdweller Mr B. My continuity meter shows the short. I wish now I had checked more frequently as I was building.
Mr B. My continuity meter shows the short. I wish now I had checked more frequently as I was building.
Without a track plan to look at, this is one tough problem. I am trying to visualize a layout with no wiring, no bus, no feeders, no reversing sections or loops. You connect a single pair of wires from the DCC command station, and a short occurs.
When you connect and apply power, is the command station indicating a short? Is there a locomotive somehere on the layout during this test? This is all very weird.
I really appreciate all the comment, thanks. Let me respond to one or two.
Currently there are no feeders and no buss so therefore no wires have been crossed.
Not sure I can post a track plan, but I was cautious to make sure I had no reversing sections, no Y's or any other type of section that allows a locomotive to turn around.
so far trouble shooting has involved me dividing the layout into two seperate sections and both independent sections have a short.
I made a mock up between two facing turnouts to create a passing siding and used jumper wires to connect them, no short regardless of turnout position. To me this confirms that insulfrog's do not need to be gapped because the frog is already insulated.
I now install jumper wires on the Peco's because over the years I have had a few where the tabs loose contact. Builds in reliability.
i will continue to divide the layout into smaller sections and go from there.
thanks again everyone.
Have you brought up the power pack or DCC system with no track connected?
gmpullmanIs it possible to slide a few of the rail joiners apart so you can isolate (electrically) sections of the layout (or track as laid so far) ?
if your desperate, try to isolate half of the layout from the other half and see which has the short. Then isolate half of the half until you find the short.
of course, there may be multiple shorts.
and of course it would be nice if the layout were designed with this in mind. So you may have to cut bus wires and reconnect them later.
hon30critterIn your case, the buzzer will come on and stay on until you eliminate the short. The noise could get tiring real fast, so you might want to use an automotive light bulb instead. The only advantage to the buzzer is that you don't have to look at it to know what's happening.
Good advice from Dave.
I might add that most low to mid-range Volt-Ohm-Amp meters have a continuity setting that will beep when there is a short (or continuity). Frequent checking with this "beeper" will indicate when (or if) a short occurs.
Of course, you also have all the other functions of a VOM which will prove invaluable for electrical diagnosis down the road.
https://tinyurl.com/yyr8cglg
basementdwellerThe turnouts are insulfrogs. Clearly I have some issue with opposing turnouts. I will study the link, thank you.
Hi again basementdweller,
Forget what I said about the turnouts likely being the problem. I made the assumption that you were using Electrofrogs so nothing that I said applies. The coloured diagram in the link is for an Electrofrog turnout so the parts around the frog don't apply in your case, and you are already familiar with the jumper placements. I don't know enough about Insulfrog turnouts to comment on the possibility of them causing shorts. There was a reference in a previous post to shorts occurring if they are used in a reverse loop but that's not your case.
Testing your track as you go is a very smart move. You don't have to apply track power to do the testing. All you need is a DC buzzer, a 9 volt battery and a couple of test leads with alligator clips. Wire one leg of the buzzer to one side of the battery (it doesn't matter which). Wire the other leg of the buzzer to one test lead. Wire the other test lead to the other battery post.
When you are starting to lay track, all you do is connect the circuit across the rails of the first piece of track that you are laying and then proceed to lay more track. If you install a piece of track that causes a short the buzzer will sound immediately and you will know that something is wrong at the exact location where you are working. Leave the buzzer attached all the time.
In your case, the buzzer will come on and stay on until you eliminate the short. The noise could get tiring real fast, so you might want to use an automotive light bulb instead. The only advantage to the buzzer is that you don't have to look at it to know what's happening.
You can get a cheap buzzer and the test leads from any electronics supplier. Here is one example of a cheap buzzer:
https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/db-unlimited/IE122312-6/2104-IE122312-6-ND/9990492
Note that the example is from the Canadian Digi Key site.
If you have a local electronics wholesaler they will likely have them on their shelves.
Also, to answer Ed's question, it is not necessary to put jumpers between the point rails and the closure rails and the closure rails and the stock rails on the Peco turnouts. However it does add a degree of reliability which can't hurt. I put jumpers on all of the 100 or so Atlas and Peco turnouts on our club's layout. It does take some time, and you have to remember to cut slots in the roadbed to allow the jumpers and points to move freely. Otherwise, the jumpers will jam the point rails. Many modellers have not installed the jumpers and have had no problems, but it has been suggested by very knowledgable modellers like John Allen that there have been enough incidents of electrical contact problems over the long term to justify doing the extra work.
All good comments so far. Short circuits can result from a track design problem, or an execution problem. Seeing the track plan and how it is connected to the power source will help the experts here to see if it is a design problem, such as Y or return loop. My bet would be on the execution side - did you recheck all of your wiring to see if the wires are connected at the right place and not touching each other? Do you use a color coding system for your wiring? Breaking down the sections as suggested will help you find the offending section (process of elimination). But a review of your own wiring is probably worth a try before taking things apart.
Simon
Mr. B speaks the truth
Never put down a lot of track without power. You've put yourself into a situation where you don't know where the problem is.
Always have power available so you can stop work and test frequently. An engine, too.
Agree with Rich, without some sort of track plan we are guessing. My first action would be to isolate a small section of track close to where you attach the feeders and see if the short still occurs. If so the problem is in the small area of the feeder attachment and the power source. If not keep expanding the isolated section until the short occurs, when it occurs the problem is in the last section that was added to the isolated part of the layout.
Is it possible to slide a few of the rail joiners apart so you can isolate (electrically) sections of the layout (or track as laid so far) ?
Much easier to diagnose smaller segments than the whole shebang.
I don't use Peco turnouts. Is it necessary to add jumpers to maintain continuity?
Is it possible that you tested a turnout and it was OK on the bench but then after installing it the jumpers you installed possibly touched and are now shorted?
Just throwin' ideas out there.
basementdweller Ed, at this stage the layout is neither DC or DCC as no wiring has been installed yet. The layout will be DCC. The turnouts are insulfrogs. Clearly I have some issue with opposing turnouts. I will study the link, thank you.
Ed, at this stage the layout is neither DC or DCC as no wiring has been installed yet. The layout will be DCC.
The turnouts are insulfrogs. Clearly I have some issue with opposing turnouts. I will study the link, thank you.
That said, I don't see the turnouts as the problem because Insulfrogs do not require gapping unless they are part of a reversing section.
Any chance that you can provide a track plan?