swisstrain We know that DC is superior to DCC, Sheldon. I chose DCC to make my model railroad more complicated. Urs
We know that DC is superior to DCC, Sheldon.
I chose DCC to make my model railroad more complicated.
Urs
That's just it, it's not about "superior", it's about "one size does not fit all needs".
My wiring, is way more complicated than DCC, no question. I'm interested in a particular user experiance, DCC does little to get me there.
Sheldon
I will add that my staging area will have some hidden tech as well that activates only the selected track - even with DCC there are advantages of doing this - if only the lined track is powered, and you select the wrong loco - it won't move. The users needs to do nothing besides select a track, the rest is automatic and invisible. It'll probably use relays - STILL the best solution for switching high current, especially if driven by low level logic, like a microcontroller.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Ditto what Randy said.
Now, here is an irony for you. On my advanced cab control DC layout, I need not worry about which loco is at the point of a train in hidden staging.
And similar to Randy I have lots of "duplicate" locos with different numbers, 10 GP7's, 4 ABBA sets of FA's, various ABA and ABBA sets of EMD F units, etc. I have 140 powered units, subtracting B units, that would still be a lot of photos to scan thru.......
With the push of two buttons, I select a track route out of staging for a particular track, and assign that trackage to a wireless throttle. Two buttons, and off we go........
I do use a note board to keep track of what train is on which staging track.
The new layout will stage about 30 trains.
My tech is old tech, but like Randy it is behind the scenes so the user has a simple, seamless experiance, with a five button wireless throttle.
And no touch screens...........
I;ll posit again - even if I did use a system that uses pretty pictures instead of numbers. I have 4 GP7's, 602, 607, 628, and 633. All are on the layout. All are in my recall stack. 607 heads up a train somewhere in hidden staging. 633 heads up anooother train somewhere else in hidden staging. It's been a month since I ran trains. I can't remember if the train with 607 is on staging track 1 or track 3.
The only thing I know for sure is it's either 607 or 633, because the other two are on visible areas of the layout.
How does a recall stack, or a list of pictures, help me here? The only solution to a problem like this is to either keep track with cards or a dry erase board or chalkboard (chalkboard ruled out like a protoype shop chart would be kind of neat and prototypical). OR some way (camera, mirror) to see into hidden staging - in which case you have to still be able to see the number, unless you want to randomly try one and see if it moves, then try the other when the one you wanted to move didn't.
All I'm saying, a large recall stack doesn;t really save anything. Especially when it's thrttle dependent - you pick up a second throttle you haven't used in a while and it only has 4 or 5 of your locos in its recall stack, where the one you most use has all 16 slots filled. Now what? And the pictures thing - requirung a fairly large screen to display properly, ends up making moost coontrols touch controols, or makes the throttle huge to have room for the buttons AND the display (all so far opt for the first option, when not selecting a loco, the screen displays an array of function 'buttons'). The whole picture thing came about to support modeling railroads outside the US and Canda, where locos may not even have numbers, or if they do, the number if 5 or 6 (or more) digits long and thus cannot be used as a DCC address. And still the problem remains, if you have say 200 locos, how do you categorize them in such a throttle for easy selection? Flicking my finger to scroll through 200 entries does not sound like how I want to operate my trains.
Maybe that makes me the "get off my lawn" guy, but if I want to play video games, I'll play train simulator. No matter how "gee whiz" you make the throttle, kids who know nothing but video games and smartphones, and only reluctantly venture outdoors will still find trains to be 'boring' so I don;t see theze crazy tough screen throttle devices as actually attracting much new blood to the hobby, which is one common argument in favor.
I am incorporating lots of tech in my layout - but it's almost all behind the scenes, doing the heavy lifting to provide the experience for a person running trains. The user doesn't directly interact with the tech.
Now get off my lawn, and go play outside!
The Staten Island West can only run two locomotives at a time so the recall stack is useful for operating. Beyond that, I have only about 14 locomotives but even so it's much easier to recall a locomotive after changing stock with its own 4 digit address written on the side.
Joe Staten Island West
Mister Beasley wrote: "Sorry but I am as old as steam and I just can't remember the 4 digit address of every locomotive, and some are in hidden staging, or behind buildings, or in the roundhouse. The recall stack gives me a clue, at least"
It's easy with the Roco z21. Just touch the locomotive "list", to see this:
Then, pick whichever one you want from the 20 that are available (More could be entered, but 20 engines is enough right now for my 4x8 layout (with 6' yard extension). You can't see the full 20, just "swipe to scroll" through the list for the rest.
I routinely keep 2 engines moving (not the same 2, I might use 3,4,5 in a session), sometimes 3 at once for a short time (due to layout size).
I've felt the same way about recall stacks. I can make mine bigger, but I never use it. at 6 or emore in the stack, it takes MORE button presses than just typing in the loco number. I'm not sure why you would want to scroll through 20 entries, pressing some button 20+ times to do so, when you could just press a maximum of 6 buttons to select ANY loco - Select, the 4 digits of the loco address, and Enter. Sure beats hitting Select, pressing the Next 15 or more times to get through the stack, and then Enter. And if the loco only has a 2 or 3 digit number, that's even LESS presses to just select it outright, instead of using recall.
And for just 2 trains running, well, the Digitrax throttles have 2 knobs, so there's no recalling to toggle between them, you just control whichever one you want to control.
richhotrainThe recall feature is not bad if you are running only two locos. The recall acts as a toggle.
That's my situation. I have a double mainline making a complete loop. I run two trains at the same time, and I find the recall the best way to switch between the the two. I never run more than two trains at a time, although each train is a consist.
York1 John
bearman Ok, so I reread the roundup and was struck that virtually every system provides for 9,999 locomotive addresses.
Ok, so I reread the roundup and was struck that virtually every system provides for 9,999 locomotive addresses.
I do that quite often as well. Sometimes I see something I missed, or my mind has subconciously worked on what I wrote in response and I see that I am wrong, or that I missed something...and I'm wrong. Hate when that happens, but if I'm honest, I have to admit that it happens.
bearman So, who has 9,999 locomotive addresses?
So, who has 9,999 locomotive addresses?
I'd hazard a pretty safe bet that nobody in the hobby has/ever had that many locomotives.
bearman In fact, who has 100 addresses? I have been to several club layouts, including a layout in a 2000 sf building and even that was not running 100 locomotives.
Again, the heavy majority of us in the hobby would have fewer than 50 locomotives. BUTTTTTTT.....................if even one of those locomotives is a Union Pacific 9000 series 4-12-2 (my hand is up)......................................
I would rather use the recall stack. Sorry but I am as old as steam and I just can't remember the 4 digit address of every locomotive, and some are in hidden staging, or behind buildings, or in the roundhouse. The recall stack gives me a clue, at least.
My Lenz throttle has a stack of 32 addresses. Between 20 some engines and a few consists, the stack is almost full. My CVP radio throttles have only one address each, so I just assign one loco to each throttle and run them that way.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
bearman So, who has 9,999 locomotive addresses? In fact, who has 100 addresses?
So, who has 9,999 locomotive addresses? In fact, who has 100 addresses?
I belong to a club with 42 members and the way we manage our locomotives is by assigning each member a two digit 'member number' that only they can use. This must be the prefix for every locomotive they want to keep in the layout. My number is 15, therefore all my locomotives start with 15 and then the last two numbers of the actual loco address. Locomotime 6745 would then be 1545. No other members can use that number, so if they had a locomotive with an actual number of 1545, they would have to change the first two digits to thier personal member number. That way, there should be no duplicate numbers to confuse things and run locomotives off the end of the layout. That eats up a lot of numbers.
Len S
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain DCC systems do not store entries 9,999 locomotive addresses, they simply allow you to use addresses up to address number 9,999. For example, the NCE PH-Pro can only store and recall up to 6 addresses on a single throttle. So, if you actually owned, say, 1,200 locomotives, you would need 200 throttles to store and recall your locomotives, assuming that you would want to actually store and recall that many addresses. Rich When I was using DCC, I never saw the point in those recall features? They never seemed any easier than just entering the address? Sheldon You raise a good point Sheldon. The recall feature is not bad if you are running only two locos. The recall acts as a toggle. But if you store, say, six locos, the recall feature can be a royal pain to cycle through, and if you miss your loco, you have to cycle through once again. It would be easier to just key in the desired loco address. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain DCC systems do not store entries 9,999 locomotive addresses, they simply allow you to use addresses up to address number 9,999. For example, the NCE PH-Pro can only store and recall up to 6 addresses on a single throttle. So, if you actually owned, say, 1,200 locomotives, you would need 200 throttles to store and recall your locomotives, assuming that you would want to actually store and recall that many addresses. Rich When I was using DCC, I never saw the point in those recall features? They never seemed any easier than just entering the address? Sheldon
richhotrain DCC systems do not store entries 9,999 locomotive addresses, they simply allow you to use addresses up to address number 9,999. For example, the NCE PH-Pro can only store and recall up to 6 addresses on a single throttle. So, if you actually owned, say, 1,200 locomotives, you would need 200 throttles to store and recall your locomotives, assuming that you would want to actually store and recall that many addresses. Rich
DCC systems do not store entries 9,999 locomotive addresses, they simply allow you to use addresses up to address number 9,999. For example, the NCE PH-Pro can only store and recall up to 6 addresses on a single throttle.
So, if you actually owned, say, 1,200 locomotives, you would need 200 throttles to store and recall your locomotives, assuming that you would want to actually store and recall that many addresses.
Rich
When I was using DCC, I never saw the point in those recall features?
They never seemed any easier than just entering the address?
You raise a good point Sheldon. The recall feature is not bad if you are running only two locos. The recall acts as a toggle. But if you store, say, six locos, the recall feature can be a royal pain to cycle through, and if you miss your loco, you have to cycle through once again. It would be easier to just key in the desired loco address.
And there is the big thing for me, I never run two separate trains at once. At least not in that way.
I do turn on "display trains" and let them run on dedicated loops. And with my system they are easy to "emergency stop" if needed.
But jumping back and forth between two "actively operated" trains, not this guy.
SeeYou190 Someone does. . Who needs an iPod that can store 20,000 songs? . I do! . . -Kevin .
Someone does.
.
Who needs an iPod that can store 20,000 songs?
I do!
-Kevin
Well I don't have an iPod, or any other similar gadget, but if I did it would need to store at least 20,000 songs to hold all the songs on my current collection of about 1700 vinyl records and 700 music CD's.
But just like not liking onboard model train sound, I'm not much for digitally compressed music played thru small speakers or ear buds.
Alton Junction
I obviously misunderstood what that number meant. Now, it makes sense.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
SeeYou190 Someone does. . Who needs an iPod that can store 20,000 songs? . I do! . -Kevin
No one's computer would need more than 640 kilobytes of RAM either.
bearman Ok, so I reread the roundup and was struck that virtually every system provides for 9,999 locomotive addresses. So, who has 9,999 locomotive addresses? In fact, who has 100 addresses? I have been to several club layouts, including a layout in a 2000 sf building and even that was not running 100 locomotives.
Ok, so I reread the roundup and was struck that virtually every system provides for 9,999 locomotive addresses. So, who has 9,999 locomotive addresses? In fact, who has 100 addresses? I have been to several club layouts, including a layout in a 2000 sf building and even that was not running 100 locomotives.
Because the "4 digit" address uses 14 bits, which is over 10,000 distinct addresses available. Most systems limit their address space to less than that.
Using the extended address allows you to use a 4 digit number, such as that found on the side of the cab, as the decoder's address, as others have pointed out.
The problem with limiting to "100" is that not all systems treat the Primary Address the same way. Some allow up to 127, others do not. To make it more complex, consists use a Primary Address too.
What if you have locomotives whose cab numbers share the last three digits? How do you deal with that. Then stay below "99" if you want to be compatible with other layouts whose DCC systems don't recognize numbers over 99? Using 4 digits and the resulting address space solves that.
Living the dream.
Who has 100 addresses? Well if I switched to DCC, I would need about 140 addresses, and I'm not a club.
Sure, I don't run 140 locos at once, but it takes most of them to stage and run the 30 trains on my layout.
The typical freight train is pulled by a 3-4 loco diesel lashup, or two steamers, or 2 diesels on many passenger trains. All units are powered and would need decoders.
Not the best photos, but most trains are pulled by lashups like these:
30 trains x 3 powered units = 90 powered units each with a decoder and address - if I used DCC.
Then there are switchers, RDC cars, extra loco sets for power changes, etc. Again about 140 powered units total that would need decoders and separate addresses.
The potential cost of decoders is just one reason why I'm not in DCC.....
And I know lots of people, who do use DCC, with way more locos than me........
And, I for one - really like being able to address my decoders to that 3- or 4-digit road number...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
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