Randy,
I don't like hydro lawn tractors, my GRAVELY is all gear drive with separate forward and reverse clutches that also allow instant direction changes:
It has a cast iron transaxle with eight selectable ground speeds, then you press the top of the pedal and the tractor moves forward, push hard it locks into forward. Push the little pedal to the side and it returns to neutral, push on the bottom of the pedal, even while moving forward, and the tractor goes in reverse, and does so in a proportionally slower gear ratio.
So just like you don't necessarily need DCC for lots of advanced features, you don't need hydro drive for instant forward and reverse on a garden tractor - gear drive GRAVELY's have had instant forward/reverse since 1936 - before hydro tractors were even invented.....
The tractor in the picture is now 23 years old and still going strong, long after many similar sized aluminum transmission hydro tractors are in the scrap yard.
So it is good that we have choices that suit our different tastes and needs.
And, as described above, the Aristo Train Engineer has instant forward and reverse as well.......
As for the idea of a more realistic throttle that is more like being "in the cab", again good thing we have different choices for different tastes - that's the last thing I want.
Because our model distances and times are so compressed, I want running the train and dispatching the train to require less actions, not more.
But again, I'm a big picture guy.
If I wanted that kind of intimate engineer experiance, I would model in some larger scale, like G, or 7-1/4" gauge outdoors.
I enjoy a good operating session, I also enjoy putting a few trains on the mainline and letting them run. I enjoy switching the ISL belt line that is separate from my mainline, I enjoy being the dispatcher or yard master.
But I'm not in the cab, in some way I'm always an observer...and the trains are very small.....1/87th scale.......
We all find our own comfort zone in this hobby, it is different for everyone.
Sheldon
rrinker As for encoders - still my preferred method after just one time trying one, because of the fine control offered. Both NCE and Digitrax have speed up and speed down buttons so you don't have to touch the knob or wheel, but I find those less satisfying than turnign a knob...Digitrax throttles are individually customizeable, to enable or disable ballastic tracking on the encoder, if that's turned off, getting massive changes in speed can be annoying, which it on a quick twist can take you from full speed to stop, in case of a problem, even if it took a lot of gradual clicks to get the train moving. If only the couples broke or the drawbars pulled out from rouch handling - the encoder gives you that options, xlow, gradual turning to accelerate smoothly and slowly, or crank the knob for unprotypical jackrabbot starts. No physical stop is not really an issue, once you are going full speed, no amount of increasing speed will do anything, likewise once the train is stopped, continued turning to slow it down will do nothing.
NCE's encoder (thumb) wheel on the Power Cab/ProCab throttles also allow ballistic tracking and is customizable. I find either method for controlling locomotives - buttons or thumbwheel - works for me.
And even a CAB-04 throttle can be set up for yard mode. You center the potentiometer to the 12 'o clock position, switch the throttle to yard mode, then it's CW from center for forward and CCW for reverse. I've only used the feature a couple of times but it is a very nice one.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I enjoy using sound when operating. It fills in something that was missing before. Expecailly newer decoders, that actually behave realistically and have much more realistic sounds. Nobody's controller, knob, buttons, or touchscreesns, can really make use of it though - I really want to get one of the ProtoThrottles which truly can utilize the braking and other motor control features on newed sound decoders and give a true to life experience.
As for encoders - still my preferred method after just one time trying one, because of the fine control offered. Both NCE and Digitrax have speed up and speed down buttons so you don't have to touch the knob or wheel, but I find those less satisfying than turnign a knob. Which is why the alternative on many smartphone throttles, instead of sliding the throttle ever on the screen, using the volume control as an up/down speed control is equally as annoying to me as trying to use the touch screen. Digitrax throttles are individually customizeable, to enable or disable ballastic tracking on the encoder, if that's turned off, getting massive changes in speed can be annoying, which it on a quick twist can take you from full speed to stop, in case of a problem, even if it took a lot of gradual clicks to get the train moving. If only the couples broke or the drawbars pulled out from rouch handling - the encoder gives you that options, xlow, gradual turning to accelerate smoothly and slowly, or crank the knob for unprotypical jackrabbot starts. No physical stop is not really an issue, once you are going full speed, no amount of increasing speed will do anything, likewise once the train is stopped, continued turning to slow it down will do nothing.
NCE having an engineer cab with an encoder makes it even better - the CAB06e has a switching mode, so there is a dead band when the loco is stopped, but continued turning counter-clockwise results int he loco starting to move in reverse, Back to stop, keep going clockwise, and the loco starts going forward. No direction switch to flip or button to press. Like a hydro drive lawn tractor.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
tstage Thanks for the additional info about the ATE throttles, Sheldon. I kinda surmised that my friend Carl may have had the momentum set up pretty high. I don't mind a little momentum - e.g. a setting of 2 (out of 9) on my Power Cab throttle; an easy one-button push operation. However, I prefer to mimic my own momentum using the encoder wheel or fine speed step button on the throttle. Since settling on TCS for my motor-only decoders, I essentially never have an issue with stalling on a slow start - even at speeds <0.5sMPH. And very few, if any, are outfitted with any sort of keep alive module. Tom
Thanks for the additional info about the ATE throttles, Sheldon. I kinda surmised that my friend Carl may have had the momentum set up pretty high.
I don't mind a little momentum - e.g. a setting of 2 (out of 9) on my Power Cab throttle; an easy one-button push operation. However, I prefer to mimic my own momentum using the encoder wheel or fine speed step button on the throttle.
Since settling on TCS for my motor-only decoders, I essentially never have an issue with stalling on a slow start - even at speeds <0.5sMPH. And very few, if any, are outfitted with any sort of keep alive module.
Regardless of starting "speed", the ATE always provides smooth starts and stops by virture of the pulse width ramping I was describing. The buttons provide great control in my opinion.
Even when you push the EMERGENCY STOP button, the ATE "winds down", but very quickly.
Another feature most peolple are not aware of, if you change the direction of a moving train, it slows, stops, changes direction, and re-accelerates to the previous setting.
This feature is really nice for switching moves.
I hate encoder wheels, never could get a feel for that using Digitrax throttles.
Nice discussion, take care.
Tom, yes that's the throttle I use. I will tell you I was skeptical about them at first, especially the push button aspect.
Here is what you may not know. The Train Engineer has an adjustable momentum setting. So if the layout owner where you tried these has the momentum on, there is a fair amount of "lag". If I recall, there are 5 or 6 momentum rate settings.
Even with the momentum off, the pulse width does not digitally "step", it has timed analog increase/decrease rate. As you hold the button, the pulse width increases or decreases at a set rate.
With the momentum off, that rate is pretty fast, but it is not instant.
I keep the momentum off.
The ATE starts my typical loco at 2-3 mph, some less. But the best thing is you almost never get that stall on a slow start because of train weight or track conditions. If it moves, it keeps moving.
I never have to look at the ATE, the buttons are easy to identify by feel.
I made my own shorter antenna, they have worked great for over 10 years. At the old house, I measured about 125' of reliable range.
I am very much into realistic speeds, in fact the power supplies that power my 10 ATE throttles are 13.8 volt regulated and filtered and deliver about 13.5 no load volts at full throttle. No screaming 16 volt DC power packs here.....
Most of my locos hit realistic top speeds at full throttle giving me the widest possible range of control.
As explained, DCC would add only a few features, and would make some things harder. I can't begin to justify the expense or work. And I have zero interest in changing my modeling goals or approach.
Alright,
So bacically a guy with NO engines capable of operating on DCC yet, should bacically but his DCC system in storage before a DCC decoder is installed in any loco at all.
Until then, he (me) should avoid the tempation to drag the system into operating a DC loco without a Decoder installed.
This really helped guys, thank you much! :)
ATLANTIC CENTRALI understand and agree. But you don't need DCC for good performance. My Aristo Train Engineer throttles use pulse width modulation speed control pretty much like a DCC decoder. And for the most part, my trains run just a smooth, just a slow, just as well as any DCC loco... If you have never run a DC layout with good throttles or a well thought out control system, then how can you judge?
If you have never run a DC layout with good throttles or a well thought out control system, then how can you judge?
Sheldon,
I've operated on a friend's large DC layout a couple of times over the years with a wireless Aristo Train Engineer throttle (like the one pictured below) and I found that I didn't really care for it at all:
I found the throttle response very nebulous and sluggish to use. Maybe it's designed that way to mimick the momentum of an accelerating & decelerating prototype steam or diesel locomotive?
As an engineer driving an actual locomotive, you would get a sense of the acceleration and coasting while riding in the cabin - even in small increments. I find my Power Cab throttle gives me that "sense" and I don't even need to look at the LCD screen. The ATE throttle, OTOH, left me guessing and it was like being a spectator rather than the engineer. Again, I guess that's something you get used to after a while?
I prefer to operate my locomotives as prototypical as possible so I like slow acceleration & deceleration (vs quick starts & stops, or flying down the track at warp speed). With or without momentum - either the center encoder wheel or the fine speed buttons on my Power Cab gives me a feel for the locomotive that the ATE throttle just couldn't replicate.
That's not to say that the ATE throttle isn't good at what it does. I just find that its lack of feedback makes it less rewarding to use to operate my locomotives - even without sound. That said, my experience with their throttles is far less extensive than your experience with DCC, Sheldon.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL But let's face it, the number two, and possibly number one feature now, driving the popularity of DCC is sound. Look at the guys on here who use DCC just when they run sound equiped locos, many of which have layouts that otherwise meet their needs with DC. I'm probably in the minority then. Sound is enjoyable in doses but I don't use it all the time when operating my layout. I primarily use and enjoy DCC for the independent & improved control of locomotives and lighting. Sound for me is icing on the cake. However, my cake has to first be delicious. If it isn't delicious (i.e. operate smoothly) then NO icing in the world is going to make it taste better. So, performance to me is way more important than sound and why I chose and really enjoy DCC. Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But let's face it, the number two, and possibly number one feature now, driving the popularity of DCC is sound. Look at the guys on here who use DCC just when they run sound equiped locos, many of which have layouts that otherwise meet their needs with DC.
Look at the guys on here who use DCC just when they run sound equiped locos, many of which have layouts that otherwise meet their needs with DC.
I'm probably in the minority then. Sound is enjoyable in doses but I don't use it all the time when operating my layout. I primarily use and enjoy DCC for the independent & improved control of locomotives and lighting.
Sound for me is icing on the cake. However, my cake has to first be delicious. If it isn't delicious (i.e. operate smoothly) then NO icing in the world is going to make it taste better. So, performance to me is way more important than sound and why I chose and really enjoy DCC.
I understand and agree. But you don't need DCC for good performance. My Aristo Train Engineer throttles use pulse width modulation speed control pretty much like a DCC decoder.
And for the most part, my trains run just a smooth, just a slow, just as well as any DCC loco.
And because the pulses are full voltage, constant lighting works very well.
The independant control offered by DCC, and the various command control systems that came before it, was the original motivating/attracting feature.
And obviously that is still the big deal. But sometimes it seems that is taken for granted amid sound, lighting, stationary decoders, etc.
I've been at this a long time, worked in this business years ago, in a region of the country full of big basement filling layouts, a great many of which I have been able to visit, and operate on a fair number of, both DC and DCC.
What I learned is that having an operating "scheme" is what really sets what kind of controls are best.
There is one guy who's layout I visited, with a large point to point industrial switching layout. It fills a 1500 sq ft basement. His control system? One, yes only one, Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless radio DC throttle like I use.
He has a few toggles along the line to kill some sidings where additional locos get parked.
He runs one train at a time and is very happy. Sure, the layout would support two trains, or maybe three, but that's about it.
He has no interest in DCC or sound, or multiple trains moving at once.
I think DCC is great for a lot of different operational schemes, and if you want sound, it really is the only way to go at this point. Most people today should use DCC.
But I am still amazed and amused by all the people who just can't understand why the rest of us have not switched - my reason is $8,000 for features I don't need or care about. And the fact that it would not enhance, or lower the cost/complexity of the features I care about - detection, signaling, CTC, long trains, both display and "operating" schemes, as well as lots of "staged" trains.
My old layout, and the new one soon to be started, are designed with a "big picture" approach. That's not to say you can't enjoy "being the engineer", but that is not the primary focus of the layout. The goal is to capture some of the "immensity" of Class I railroading in the 50's.
My industries are not along the mainline, there is effectively a seperate ISL nested in a big double track mainline running display layout. They connect to each other at the one visable yard.
I looked long and hard at DCC several times, I could find no advantage that justified buying and installing 140 decoders, loosing my automatic train control, and having to actually make some aspects of operation more complex.
Automatic Train Control - like the prototype had on major passenger lines in the 40's and 50's - works like this - unless the block you are in, and the next block in front of you, are assigned to YOUR THROTTLE, there is a dead section of track, typically at an interlocking, between you and any other active throttles that might be assigned to blocks ahead of you.
So if you run a red signal - your train just stops. These track sections are long enough to stop a four unit diesel lashup moving at 60 smph, typically about 4-5 feet long.
CTC and singaling is simplified but prototypical in feel and appearance. When the dispatcher clears your signal, he has also assigned your route and throttle all with the push of two buttons as you approach each interlocking point - or without him you can do it as you approach each local interlocking tower.
It kind of makes you run trains like real trains - not just drive around willy nilly.....and I wil admit, most of these features only work well because of the large but relatively simple nature of the layout.
But trust me, I really do understand the appeal of DCC, I have used it a lot. I actually think DCC can be more valueable on small or medium sized layouts than on large layouts.
I just don't care for the sound in HO. I only buy sound equipped engines when I'm forced to (in order to get perhaps the lighting effects that I do like). Yes, I can turn it off--sometimes--depending upon the make and what kind of decoder, etc. My son likes long freight trains, now approaching 50 cars...the wheel noise tends to drown out even the best sound, and there is a little more motor noise also drowning out the sound because I might have two or three units pulling the train.
John
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut let's face it, the number two, and possibly number one feature now, driving the popularity of DCC is sound. Look at the guys on here who use DCC just when they run sound equiped locos, many of which have layouts that otherwise meet their needs with DC.
I'm probably in the minority then. Sound is enjoyable in doses but I don't use it all the time when operating my layout. I primarily use and enjoy DCC for the independent & improved control of my locomotives and lighting.
Sound for me is icing on the cake. However, my cake has to first be delicious. If it isn't delicious (i.e. operate smoothly) then NO icing in the world is going to make it taste better. Oftentimes I enjoy my cake without any icing whatsoever.
So, performance to me is way more important than sound and I find that DCC gives me that in abundance.
carl425 RR_Mel Shouldn't it be 4 & 6 connected to DCC and 3 & 5 connected to DC?
RR_Mel
rrinker On pure DC, a motor-only decoder doesn't run much differently from the same loco with directional constnat lighting (think P2K). There's about the same diode drop between the rails and the motor with the light board or a decoder. Sound decoders are a completely different animal, and the whole idea of using sound on DC was not one of the smarter moves - at least not if you want it to be able to actual sit still and idle with sounds. As soon as you use a DC drive that does its darndest to emulate a DCC signal, all bets are off. The poor decoder has no chance. --Randy
On pure DC, a motor-only decoder doesn't run much differently from the same loco with directional constnat lighting (think P2K). There's about the same diode drop between the rails and the motor with the light board or a decoder. Sound decoders are a completely different animal, and the whole idea of using sound on DC was not one of the smarter moves - at least not if you want it to be able to actual sit still and idle with sounds.
As soon as you use a DC drive that does its darndest to emulate a DCC signal, all bets are off. The poor decoder has no chance.
With the Train Engineer, they just sit there and hum, or they have two speeds - on and off.
But let's face it, the number two, and possibly number one feature now, driving the popularity of DCC is sound.
I understand lots of guys like sound, I'm glad they are having fun.
It just gives me a headache after about 8 minutes, no matter how low it is turned down, or how "good" it suposedly is.
It is playing out of 1" speakers...........
My opinion that running DC locos on DCC is a bad idea is not based on damage fears at all, simply on bad perfromance.
Same is true of dual mode decoders on DC. I have given away, sold or trashed a number of decoders...........
That's not entirely true. In the early days of DCC, they ALL had the capability to run a DC loco, even NCE. The whole point was to ease the transition - remember early decoders which were VERY limited compared to today's even basic motor decoders, were $60 or more.
Both running on address 0 AND most all early DCC decoders were instant death to a coreless motor - the early decoders used low frequency PWM motor drive which heated such motors just like putting them on DCC rails without a decoder. Only with the advent of "silent running" high frequency PWM drive was it safe to convert a coreless motor to DCC - now you cna buy off the shelf locos with coreless motors, not just special high end brass.
The old heavy open frame motors used in older locos, and such common locos as Athearn BB locos with their relatively heavy motors are pretty safe running on address 0. They have enough rotor mass to maintain cooling. You can;t just leave them sit there though, the motor has to spin to cool itself. They won;t go very fast, you can;t stretch the signal enough to get a high DC potential and still maintain DCC signal integrity. Athearn motors, with their loose construction (only the top and bottom clips hold them together, and the magnets aren;t even glued in) will buzz relentlessly. The strong pulse effect can actually HELP with a tight loco - a built but never run Bowser PRR T1 would just trip the breaker on a DC power pack. I put it on the DCC track, selected address 0, and but by bit it gradually started to turn a wheel and eventually was able to run in both directions for some break in time, after which it ran fine on DC.
Agreed. That's why NCE chose not to offer DC as an option on their product. It's DCC or...use a DC power pack.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
If the model train industry really told the truth, they would admit that running a DC loco on a DCC system is a bad idea.
And, running "dual mode" decoder equipped locos on DC is a bad idea.
Both are unacceptable compromises in an attempt to bridge the gap between the two systems.
jjdamnit This signal can damage a DC locomotive. I hope you didn't damage your DC loco. If you really need to operate a DC locomotive with this system you can piggyback a DC controller; as also mentioned on pg. 6. Hope this helps.
This signal can damage a DC locomotive. I hope you didn't damage your DC loco.
If you really need to operate a DC locomotive with this system you can piggyback a DC controller; as also mentioned on pg. 6.
Hope this helps.
Hi jjdamnit,
I know that I did not damage my locos, because ALL of my DC locos do the same thing. (Baldwin S-12, 2-8-0 Cons., FT) When run on DC, they run like new.
I think that the isssue is in the cotroller itself.
Coding issue? More to see.
Hello All,
gregci thought it was address 0.
With the Bachmann EZ Command controller it is "Address 10" as selected by the #10 push-button on the controller.
There is a warning on pg. 6 about operating a DC equipped engine with this DCC system.
A DCC system does not produce a true DC output. It produces what is referred to as zero bit stretching.
You can pickup a Bachmann DC controller on eBay cheaper than listed on the Bachmann website.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
For those who have not read the manual, it is number ten on the Ez Command. Yes it is zero bit stretching. Twelve to fourteen volts AC hard on the motor. I have looked more than once with my Scope. It may not be a sine wave because it contains digital data. Nature of the beast. The NMRA knew that when they came up with the idea.
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/dc-loco-on-dcc
From a DC power pack I could also operate a dual mode decoder. The decoder needs at least five volts just to wake up and a couple more volts for the loco to move.
For sero bit, Hard on the motor. I have measured where the brushes contact the armature and it can get quite hot, even with the loco stopped and power still on the track. I used an infra red temp scanner that looks through can motors on a loco stand.
You can join the Bachmann forums for more info. Company reps there with many users. Google Bachmann forums.
About twelve yearts ago I had a MRC2K that had five throttles that could run one DC loco using throttle one.
I eventully gave the system away and bought an NCE Power Cab. No more zero bit operation. Converted locos or bought DCC ready locos.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Put a decoder in it, or put it on a shelf.
My Lenz system will run an analog loco as Engine 0, but it runs poorly.
Also, reversing sections behave weirdly with analog engines.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
i thought it was address 0.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Hi y'all,
I'm running a Bachmann Digital Command Controller on my layout, and I'm trying to figure out why in the heck my old D Lehigh Valley 2-8-0 engine won't move when used on Address 10.
In the book it says I can use "Analog" engines on Address 10, and they will have a constant light function. It worked for a while, but then I would crank on the knob when set to 10, they would just sit there, then after a while, they would take off at full speed in one direction until I hit the All Stop button.
Does anyone know how I can fix this?
Thanks In Advance!