as to defy reality. I pulled out my RRampmeter and measured the voltage around my layout, no more than a 0.1 V drop at the extreme ends of the two busses. There is a 3 inch section of track with joiners on one end from where I have dropped the last set of feeders, and plastic joiners on the other end to create the two power districts, and there is no voltage in that 3 inch section. I assume this means that there is no juice?
Bear "It's all about having fun."
From what I see so far, I would have to agree. Follow with a finger or probe the direction the current would flow and you would see where the current would stop flowing. There will be an obstruction. Either side.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Then it is time to drop a pair of feeders from that 3 inch section.
If I may explain myself, I have a degree in civil engineering and practiced for well over 30 years in water resources and sanitary engineering. I graduated from an accredited college without any kind of honors because I almost flunked Intro to Electrical Engineering for Non-EE majors. I got a D, and, to this day, I think the professor took pity on me giving me a D because he knew that I was doing well in my other course work.
You could just redo the rail joiner connection, clean it up, new joiners, and solder that in place, leaving the gap on the other end.
I have a regular little lamp, like what your supposed to put in a buiding, that I have attached 2 leads, with alligator clips. I clip on a lamp, to the tracks, to see if there is any voltage.
Mike.
My You Tube
I can't help but wonder at the 'material' used in that small section of rails. Could it be heavily oxidized but not looking the part?
Otherwise, Mike has the most sensible assumption, that being that one or both joiners is/are somehow deficient or defective. Soldering both joiners might tidy things up.
Actually I meant using your meter probes to find where the voltage interuption is. I did that once some years ago with my Harbor Freight meter. Forgot about it until now. I had forgot to solder a feeder. At the time it was a DC layout.
selectorI can't help but wonder at the 'material' used in that small section of rails. Could it be heavily oxidized but not looking the part?
I'm wondering if this is an immediate failure after track laying or a failure after ballasting and/or weathering or time (which I think would be more likely). We've talked a lot about joiners not being a reliable for electrical transmission. It only takes one of the two to fail.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Gentlemen, if there is a failure with that rail joiner, which I suspect is the case, I will deal with it. However, this is the first failure since I wired the layout several years ago. I solder feeders to the joiners then solder the joiners to the rails, some joiners without feeders are not soldered to acccount for any possible expansion/contraction of the track. I have never had any issues until now.
I'm stickin with the theory that the joiners, one or both, have lost connection. There isn't many other possibilities, either the track is getting power, or it's not.
Even if those joiners have feeders soldered to them, if the joint itself wasn't soldered closed, then dirt has migrated into the joint.
Take a test lead, paper clip, screw driver, or anything else metallic and bridge the rail joiner. Then see if you have power.
That's why I made up the light set up I mentioned in an early post. Clip on and see if it lights up.
I have a auto light bulb and socket with alligator clips. I'll try that, but I have already started cleaning the ballast out from those joints and I am of the opinion that some foreign material made its way into the joiners. It might mean ripping out the joiners and the feeders, then soldering the feeders to the rails and the rails to each other. Replacing those joiners would mean ripping out close to a 36 inch length of flex track.
bearmanReplacing those joiners would mean ripping out close to a 36 inch length of flex track.
I wouldn't go to that much trouble, just tack a couple feeders on that piece. If there is an underlying joist, sneak a wire from one rail, around the joiner to the rail on the the same side and cover it with balast, or a little vegetation.
bearmansome foreign material made its way into the joiners
Very likely.
In all the forum discussions, wiring websites and wiki's on the topic, one thing that everybody agrees on is "never rely on an unsoldered rail joiner to conduct power from one rail to the next", or "every piece of rail should be soldered to something - either a feeder or the next piece of rail".
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Wire is prototypical
I don't think so, Bearman. If you have a Dremel, use a cut-off wheel, and cut through the joiners, cut through the plastic joiners, as well. Remove the short piece.
Take a screw driver and slip whats left of the joiners off the long track, and do the same to the short piece.
Clean up the ends of the exposed rails, on both pieces.
Remove what ties you need to on the short piece, to slip on 2 new rail joiners, on all the way, the length of the joiner.
Set the short piece in place, slide the joiners back into place, half on the long piece, the rest on the short piece, just like it was when you layed the track the first time. Test for power, solder the joints.
Use a piece of styrene to fill in the gap where the plastic joiners were.
Test for power again, replace the pieces of ties you had to remove, by slipping replacements, or maybe the pieces you removed, back under the rails, and then carefully use the salvaged ballast, and reballast the track sections.
Track gang can call it a day.
The solution is either Henry's or Mike's. I do have a dremel and Mike's is more time consuming and messy. Henry's is a quick fix however there is a joist that may be involved with Henry's fix. Henry, do you have an alter ego that is haunting my house?????????
You could just solder the offending joiner(s).
In fact, carl, that just ocurred to me. Solder the offending joiners to the rails, and if that doesn't work, then drop feeders from the section of track without power. Anyone have any opiniond on this course of action?
In fact, carl, that just occurred to me. Solder the offending joiners to the rails, and if that doesn't work, then drop feeders from the section of track without power. Anyone have any opinions on this course of action?
The problem is solved. I cleaned out the ballast around the joiners. Soldered the joiners to the track and I now have juice to the 3 inch segment.
Soldering the joiners was the proper and easist fix.
bearman The problem is solved. I cleaned out the ballast around the joiners. Soldered the joiners to the track and I now have juice to the 3 inch segment.
I have been soldering all my rail joints for 50 years. I will never understand why others don't.
Sheldon
I treat every piece of track as its own section , soldering drops to every piece allowing for any expansion or contraction at the rail joiners.
dbduck I treat every piece of track as its own section , soldering drops to every piece allowing for any expansion or contraction at the rail joiners.
I assume you use DCC? So much for the idea that DCC means less wiring........
I use DC, my average control section (block) is 30' to 40' long. They are each fed by a single feeder which runs thru an inductive dectector first. Multiple drops would be a wiring nightmare.
But I have never needed them with soldered rail joints, and never had any expansion/contraction issues.
So you mean to tell me you would not simply solder the rail joiners of a short section of track to the ajoining 3' section?
I believe the OP indicated that the offending piece of track was only 3" long?
I wasn't sure whether the OP was talking about a failed joiner that was wired to a feeder on not. Apparently not. Randy is a wired joiner guy and he claims no failures. I am just starting to try that.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL30' to 40' long
From what I've read that's really really long for DCC. I see no point in testing the limits of the bare minimum number of feeders needed. It's easier to do more work up front, than go back and problem solve.
As I guy who isn't sure where he put the car keys 2 hours ago, remembering what I did in 1985 is hard. Pretty sure I used 1x4 pine for L-girder and at least 1/2" plywood for cookie cutter roadbed, with homosote on top.
I soldered every rail joiner. Like George Costanza, I did have shrinkage. The kinks were fixed by dremel cut off disk and adding a bunch of jumpers between the cut sections. When I took it down, unsoldering turnouts did not go well either.
It may well be argued that I should have had better soldering equipment, and I should have used better quality lumber, but I didn't glean that from the How To publications from MR at the time.
My current construction is modular, anticipating moving late this year. 7.5 and 5 foot. I should have gone for 6 -2 1/2" so they would fit in my SUV. That limits the longest continuous stretch of rail, soldered or not.
That happened to me some years ago so I immediately turned to my meter and trace the tracks. I might have mentioned it before, I forgot to solder in a feeder in one section.
I have been using a meter since 1955 so it is first in my mind for troubleshooting any electrical issues.
BigDaddy I wasn't sure whether the OP was talking about a failed joiner that was wired to a feeder on not. Apparently not. Randy is a wired joiner guy and he claims no failures. I am just starting to try that. ATLANTIC CENTRAL 30' to 40' long From what I've read that's really really long for DCC. I see no point in testing the limits of the bare minimum number of feeders needed. It's easier to do more work up front, than go back and problem solve. As I guy who isn't sure where he put the car keys 2 hours ago, remembering what I did in 1985 is hard. Pretty sure I used 1x4 pine for L-girder and at least 1/2" plywood for cookie cutter roadbed, with homosote on top. I soldered every rail joiner. Like George Costanza, I did have shrinkage. The kinks were fixed by dremel cut off disk and adding a bunch of jumpers between the cut sections. When I took it down, unsoldering turnouts did not go well either. It may well be argued that I should have had better soldering equipment, and I should have used better quality lumber, but I didn't glean that from the How To publications from MR at the time. My current construction is modular, anticipating moving late this year. 7.5 and 5 foot. I should have gone for 6 -2 1/2" so they would fit in my SUV. That limits the longest continuous stretch of rail, soldered or not.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL 30' to 40' long
Henry,
My first layout, located in an unfinished basement, when I was only 12, was built for me by my father. The track was TruScale wood roadbed track, all joints soldered, open gaps for blocks, etc.
In fact, the materials used to build that layout were the same plywood platforms and TruScale track my father had used every Christmas to set up a rather large (5x18) Christmas Garden every year since I was about 2 or 3 years old in the days before we had a basement.
My mother actually allowed the 5x18 model railroad to occupy her living room from from Thanksgiving to February......
He soldered and unsoldered the rail joints every year, and soldered wires for the controls and scenic lighting as well.
I remember this well because at age 5, I put my hand on the hot soldering iron......
As soon as we had a basement, and the propect of being in that house for a while, he built me the layout and soon gave me creative control of its future........
Expansion and contraction problems can and do happen, and, environment and materials both can play a role.
BUT, I still consider soldering most or all rails the best method. If one really feels the need for expansion joints, use jumpers rather than soldering the joiners, at least in a few stratigic locations.
The jury is still out on this DCC feeder thing. There are a few modelers on this forum who will tell you it is way over blown and how they have built moderately large layouts with only a few feeders, or even just one per power district, with no operational issues.
I have designed and helped build a few large DCC layouts over the years. Honesty, as an experianced electrician, with considerable machine tool control wiring experiance, I would rather wire my complex Advanced Cab Control DC system than do the stuff I see recommended for large DCC layouts these days.
I do have one disclaimer here - for the most part, I have never been one to salvage track when dismantling a layout, if that track has been ballasted.
For the last 25 years or so, my layout contruction methods have included gluing track (not turnouts) with adheasive caulk. Prior to that most of my layouts had hand layed track and only the rail was salvaged.
I did salvage most of the turnouts from my most recent layout because most of it never reached the scenery/ballast stage, but the track will not come up, I will savage the rail.
I was actually at the old house today doing some more of the layout demo.
Hope to start on the new layout in a few months.
"I wasn't sure whether the OP was talking about a failed joiner that was wired to a feeder on not. Apparently not."
In fact, the joiners were wired to feeders at the end of the bus. The only other failure I have had over the course of several years is a soldered joint that contracted throwing the track out of gauge.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL dbduck I treat every piece of track as its own section , soldering drops to every piece allowing for any expansion or contraction at the rail joiners. I assume you use DCC? So much for the idea that DCC means less wiring........ I use DC, my average control section (block) is 30' to 40' long. They are each fed by a single feeder which runs thru an inductive dectector first. Multiple drops would be a wiring nightmare. But I have never needed them with soldered rail joints, and never had any expansion/contraction issues. So you mean to tell me you would not simply solder the rail joiners of a short section of track to the ajoining 3' section? I believe the OP indicated that the offending piece of track was only 3" long? Sheldon
I rarely have pieces of track that short.. and have soldered one end to an ajoining piece of track in some cases... but soldering is involved in either situation & in the grand scope of things what is 2 more wires dropped to the bus