If it's never been apart, take a look at Edmund's photos to see why you should even if you AREN'T goign to mill the frame. See all that goop in the gearbox? A) there's far too much of it and B) the original factory grease, especially in a model as old as this, can actually get hard - not just extra thick, actually hardened like glue. Washing that all out (again - be very careful about the bushings and washers on the worm shaft - they should be cleaned off but they can be easily washed down a sink so don;t even thing about holding them under running water) and reassembling with the correct amount (a very little bit - there just needs to be enough to lightly cover the mating surfaces, these don't need to be packed like wheel bearings on a car) of a good quality lubricate can make a 100% improvement in performance of these locos.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
mbinsewiDo the sugar cube speakers come already enclosed? So mount the speaker and your done? Would using 2 speakers make a good difference. or not?
Streamlined Backshop has a good overview of sugarcubes:
http://www.sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/sugarcubespeakernotes.html
They show the ESU speaker that I linked to and showed photos of above. One reason I like the ESU is that I can keep plenty on hand and the housings are easily stackable or adaptable to varying needs.
There are occasions where I use "found" materials or scratch built enclosures out of styrene or wood. One time I had some 25 or 28mm round speakers and I wound up using Walthers Cornerstone steel tank rings as speaker housings.
If I can fit them I do like to have two speakers if possible. Maybe it breaks all the rules but I have used two different speakers. I try to keep the impedance the same but I have mixed them up, as long as I don't get too much for the decoder to handle. Decoder output wattage has increased in recent decoders and I believe the new Loksound 5 is even higher yet. I nearly always have to reduce sound levels.
Here is a BLI Alco RSD-15 that I have a 28mm round speaker in the original location, but I modified the housing, and a sugar cube mounted in the high nose. These were both 8Ω and I believe I wired them in series. All I remember is that the end result was great sound
BLI_BLE_RS15dcc by Edmund, on Flickr
As I recall, there are no openings in the top or sides of this shell, all the sound comes out the bottom. Unless you put your ears in close proximity, you really can't tell the difference.
The round speaker is simply mounted with that baffle, NOT in an "airtight" housing as is always suggested. That baffle ring improves the sound very much. The main idea being to cancel the sound waves from the front of the cone from the back of the cone. Sometimes an airtight housing is best but I have done some this way and they also sound great.
Don't be afraid to experiment a little and "bend the rules" a little. Some of the best sound I've achieved came from cheap speakers I found on eBay for 50¢ each and some of the worst has come from fifteen-dollar "specialty" speakers from DCC suppliers.
Good Luck, Ed
mbinsewi I thought the P2K's had "see-through" fans. I'm also not sure if the fans are removable, individualy, or not. I doubt it, I've never looked at mine. If not, I'm sure Ed's ideas will be spot on. gmpullman The "sugar cube" speakers are amazing little devices! Good Luck, Ed Do the sugar cube speakers come already enclosed? So mount the speaker and your done? Would using 2 speakers make a good difference. or not? I'm not sure just what a decoder with sound puts out for speakers, as far as power. Good luck Rick, and let us "give-a-listen" when you get it fired up. I'm really interested in these speakers, as I have a sound install coming up. My first. Mike.
I thought the P2K's had "see-through" fans. I'm also not sure if the fans are removable, individualy, or not. I doubt it, I've never looked at mine.
If not, I'm sure Ed's ideas will be spot on.
The "sugar cube" speakers are amazing little devices! Good Luck, Ed
Do the sugar cube speakers come already enclosed? So mount the speaker and your done? Would using 2 speakers make a good difference. or not? I'm not sure just what a decoder with sound puts out for speakers, as far as power.
Good luck Rick, and let us "give-a-listen" when you get it fired up. I'm really interested in these speakers, as I have a sound install coming up. My first.
Mike.
Yes, the P2k gp30's have see-through fans. I was asking if these see-through fans are available as a detail part to provide an optional approach in challenging sound installations.
The sugar cube speakers vary. Sometimes the enclosure is sold with the speaker and other times the enclosures are purchased separately with multiple options. The single sugar cube speakers sound very good to me and double etc speakers are awesome as well. I'm very much a novice in relation so I'll let the more advanced modelers like Ed provide their recommendations.
gmpullmanThe "sugar cube" speakers are amazing little devices! Good Luck, Ed
My You Tube
Thanks, Rick! Glad my few hints helped you out.
As far as body openings, i.e. vents and fans, in all the diesel sound installs I've done I really haven't noticed too much of a difference in how the body shell was configured as far as "letting the sound out" goes.
It seems like there is enough open space where the trucks attach or through other body shell openings that the sound gets out okay. Generally, I have noticed that the sound improves when the shell is finally in place so the speakers have a sound chamber to help with the dynamic range.
Once you have done a few sound installs you then have the confidence to experiment a little. The results may surprise you. The "sugar cube" speakers are amazing little devices!
Thanks for all the excellent commentary and suggestions!
Gotta give a double hat tip to Ed, the chassis is held in place by two screws and can be easily removed for milling purposes. Wahoo! The P2K GP30's have open venting on the fans so work well to install speaker below the fans.
Are there detail parts to replace the solid fans to open vents on other models such as an athearn locomotive (Gp38-2 and 40-2)?
IDRickSugar cube may also fit between the two pairs of notches on top of the chassis and would put the speaker below the fans.
That's where I was talking about putting it, just before I had quickly leave.
j. c. what generation is it some of the later ones were dcc ready. if you just have to remove a small nub you can take a bastard cut file and load it with grease to hold the filings.
what generation is it some of the later ones were dcc ready. if you just have to remove a small nub you can take a bastard cut file and load it with grease to hold the filings.
And some, like the SD 7/9 above and the PAs and E units, you can remove the weights by removing a few, sometimes hidden, screws.
Thanks for showing the parts from an actual locomotive, very helpful!
Hi,
I just did some decoder and speaker installs in Life-Like SD-7s and a GP-9. Somewhat similar designs. Here's what you see when you remove the worm cover housing, which also has the fingers that retain the truck to the frame:
L-L_SD-7 by Edmund, on Flickr
L-L_SD-7fw by Edmund, on Flickr
I clean out all the old grease, check the gearing and wheel gauge and run the locomotive on roller-stands to sheck for binding and current draw. This is a good time to put a little light oil on the motor shaft, too.
SD_9-decoder-4 by Edmund, on Flickr
I solder new, extra flexible silicone wire to the truck pickups. Sometimes the old wiring is stiff and/or frayed. For the age of these Life-Like locomotives, they are surprisingly robust and smooth runners. Very low current draw, with a few exceptions, too.
Meter-A by Edmund, on Flickr
In the case of the SD-9 all I had to do was file away a few mounting bosses that held the old board and the headlight wires. Then I planned out my decoder/speaker/headlight layout:
SD_9-decoder-sp by Edmund, on Flickr
I managed to fit two ESU cube speakers and a Loksound select decoder plus two LEDs with resistors already in place. Speaker S1 is slightly larger and fits into the cab. You really don't notice it in there when you look into the windows.
I really like the ESU cube speakers as they come with a versatile enclosure that can be configured in several ways. I made up a thinner one for under the long hood and a deeper one that I placed in the cab on two lengths of styrene cemented to the weight as shown at S1 above.
Here are the two cube speakers right after I soldered fine wire to them. This part can be a little tricky. I stick the speakers to cardstock using double stick tape otherwise they fly up and stick to the iron soldering tip!
SD_9-decoder-sp1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Here is a link to one seller of the ESU speaker:
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/esu-50321-loksound-speaker-11mm-x-15mm-square-8-ohms-0-5w-with-sound-chamber-set/
Here's the long-nose headlight and smaller speaker. I find Kapton tape to be very helpful with DCC installs. Can you tell?
The cube speakers are surprisingly loud and clear. Volumes have to be turned down quite a bit when you make your CV adjustments. The two speakers are wired in series here.
Good point Henry, I need to take some measurements to ensure there is sufficient room for the decoder and speaker. Thanks for sharing your experience with the GP9!
In my GP9 the slot for the circuit board was shorter than the standard drop in replacement boards for factory circuit boards. I put a sugar cube in the cab, because I milled the nose and there still wasn't room.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
mbinsewi For a sugar cube, you might be able to use the little space on top, behind the board/decoder. That will get the speaker right under the fans, so you can hear it. Mike.
For a sugar cube, you might be able to use the little space on top, behind the board/decoder. That will get the speaker right under the fans, so you can hear it.
Here is a link to one installation method on the P2k GP30 with several pictures.
http://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/life-proto-2000-gp30/wdk-kat-3
They used a sound decoder, a stay alive and a large speaker. I'm thinking the decoder could fit where the original light board resides and perhaps a sugar cube could be installed in the cab or over the tab for the front trucks. What do you guys think?
IDRick It is a Life Like P2k GP30. There is a nice diagram on Hoseeker.net on page 2 but I don't see how the trucks are held in place.
Pop off the worm gear cover, that's it. Part #17. Remove the worm gear, becareful of the little thrust washers on each, and the little brass blocks, the truck drops out.
If you coming up with another way to hide the speaker, the milling you need to do is on part #18. There might be enough space for your speaker on top.
The decoder will pug into the board where it show the 8 little pins, after you remove the jumper board.
IDRickIt is a Life Like P2k GP30. There is a nice diagram on Hoseeker.net on page 2 but I don't see how the trucks are held in place.
Looks like my Proto GP9. #17 covers the worm and clips on to the top of the truck, as I recall. Remove that and the truck just falls out except for any wires, which you are going to replace anyway.
The engine is held in by Athearn type rubber mounts #6, which grip the sides of the engine and have mushroom projections which press fit into the bottom of the chasis.
Yes, I have stripped it to bare frame. No motor, drive parts at all. Keep all the screws together. They may be Metric and not easy to find locally. Some are tricky. I had to search around but I have been a machine mechanic for fifty or so years.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Great suggestion Henry! My kid is 35 and lives 280 miles away so will need to adopt a local kid for the task... Maybe can even get tears if I throw in a ten spot!
I'd visit a couple local machine shops. If they're busy and not interested, they will want $75 or $100. If they are sympathetic to model railroading and realize it's a 10 minute job, it should be a lot less. Bring a kid, if he's not yours, don't mention it.
mbinsewi What manufacturer of loco are we talking? Right off hand, I don't know of any that you can remove the truck, without removing the drive shaft, and worm gearing, or whatever drives the truck. That's not a big deal. Mike.
What manufacturer of loco are we talking? Right off hand, I don't know of any that you can remove the truck, without removing the drive shaft, and worm gearing, or whatever drives the truck.
That's not a big deal.
Thanks Mike, you always provide great advice! I'm a mechanical klutz and not sure I want to strip things down the bare frame... The decoder will fit in the space for the current light board so the key decision is where to put the speaker. Milling the frame is one solution but perhaps there are other solutions like a small sugar cube speaker in the cab... I'll need to check that out as it would simpler and easier.
Even if you had a mill, you would need to strip down to the bare frame.
you can’t remove the metal shavings . You need to wash with soap and water, then blow dry.
Thanks Rich, I agree, removing the trucks would be most beneficial. I'm not sure how to remove the trucks and hope it is possible without disassembling the drivetrain... Off the internet! :)
Agree with Rich. If your modifying the frame, you need the bare frame alone, no other parts attached.
I've used a hacksaw, and files for bigger pieces, one major overhaul I did required I use my 4" grinder, or it would take forever.
I use a Dremel for small ares.
Remove the trucks. A couple times I have removed the trucks and everything else to grind metal off with a belt sander or cut a small part of with a Dremel and diamond cutoff wheel. Don't try to cheat. It is not worth it. I never did.
I also did some grinding with a four inch Harbor Freight rotary grinder some years ago.
Choose proper kind of grit and keep a bowl of cool water. Measure often.