My locos run fine on DC but I'm planning to convert to DCC. Are Stay Alives a must when converting to DCC? My prize P2K GP-30's have limited space so it would be a challenge to put in a decoder, sound, and Stay Alives in them...
Clean, solid trackwork is more important. 4 and 6 axle engines have few of the issues which are helped by keep alives.
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Thanks, all my locos are 4 axle diesels! I have read that slow movement in a yard can lead to stalling or breakup of sound. Is that a general problem?
Not as far as I'm concerned. I don't use any, and I never have. All of my locos are GP's and SD's or GE type, with 4 and 6 axle drives, and nothing short like small switchers.
I would think if you run short switchers, like the plymouth type, you might end up using a keep-a-live.
All turnouts have to be DCC friendly, as that's where many of the problems accur, but I won't get into powering frogs, frog juiers, etc., etc., because I don't use any, or know anything about them, other than what I read in here.
Mike.
EDIT: Clean track with good steady power is also esential.
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I've only been back in the hobby 3 years and 3 months, and I don't remember Keep Alives existing in 2015.
The best use of keep alives is over frogs, especially long frogs. I don't have any issue with stalling on #4-5 Walthers turnouts with my Proto GP9 or Bachmann 45 tonner. I bought some Atlas curved turnouts for future construction, and man, they have a long frog.
#8 and larger turnouts also have long frogs. The ways to deal with that are either a frog juicer, or a manual or electric turnout motor that has a switch to apply the appropriate current to the frog.
If you have a few engines and lots of frogs, the cost effective thing to do is have a keep alive. Probably I am going to settle out in the more engines than frogs camp and use Caboose industries switching throws. I don't know about lots of engines and lots of frogs. As you rightly point out is where to put it, and the soldering can be especially delicate.
The downside to keep alives, except for Loksound, is that a derailed locomotive can keep going and there is no way to stop it, short of picking it up. Loksound allows one to program the duration of aliveness.
They also function over dirty track, but if you have dirty track, that is your fault.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
My layout and the club I use to belong to hand hand laid track and turnouts and no stay alive. The club ran a John Allen track cleaning car at times.
Right now my guess is some do not pay much attention to track cleaning or loco wheel cleaning.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Hi IDRick,
I use keep alives but only in my two axle critters. As several others have said, they aren't necessary in bigger locomotives if you keep your track clean.
If you have a larger locomotive that is stalling despite having clean wheels and clean track, the odds are that it is a broken wire on one of the trucks.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I do have one of those Walthers Plymouth ML-8 with keep alive and it works quite well. Most of my other locomotives are 4 axel GP38-2’s and if they stall I have to fix the problem not use a band aid over it.
Joe Staten Island West
Stay alives a must with DCC system?
Not a "must" but a "plus", especially for shorter wheelbased switchers. I would eventually like keep alive/current keepers in my SW1000's and I think Rapido's planned SW1200 will have them factory installed.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Another way to look at it is whether you'd rather put keep-alive's in all your locomotives or Frog Juicers on all your turnouts. Since the KA's are good for more than just frogs, and you tend to have more turnouts than locomotives, the case can be made that the KA's are the better choice.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Many of my locos are DC versions that I have converted to DCC w/sound. I have added Keep Alives or Current Keepers to perhaps 5% of those on a case by case basis, some because of specific sensitivity and some on a proactive basis. These include a doodlebug and a snowplow, both with less than robust pickups.
I did convert one P2K GP30 and did not include a capacitor module. It does fine.
One spot of my trackwork is weak at a triple 90-degree crossing. (I know, I should re-do it.) That spot sometimes caused only my first loco, a Genesis GP9, to hiccup the sound. I had decided to change its Tsunami to a LokSound and upgrade the speaker, so while in there I experimented with Radio Shack standard capacitors. These require inclusion of a resistor and diode for charging / discharging. They are very space inefficient so I would not recommend at all. But the largest that fit in the cab space did the trick. Just luck, a fun experiment and learning. The KAs and CCs have immensely more capacitance as they are of a "super-capacitor" type.
Since then, I have kept Keep Alive and Current Keeper versions on hand and installed one of a convenient size in certain loco conversions that might be more sensitive, such as a small Camelback. Any of these sizes will accommodate a moderate track imperfection or specific spot beginning to get dirty. But as others have said, most cases do not need the addition.
That said, many folks like to settle on a type of decoder. I like the LokSounds, for instance. I have learned how to hook up a capacitor module to the solder pads, but it is a littly tricky. You might look at the TCS WoWSounds as some or all of them have built in or included capacitors and they have "kits" for many specific locos. Some locos may not have much room for adding a separate capacitor without milling away some frame weight. (I recommend having a friend with a milling machine.
I built my layout in 2012 for DCC and, having some longer frogs such as on #8 and #7-1/2 curved turnouts, decided to power all the frogs using the Tortoise aux contacts, but most folks report that is not needed for typical locos with decent trackwork. I would do it again if starting fresh, but would probably address after the fact, as needed, on installed trackage.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
So I read recently that ScaleTrains Rivet Counter loco's all come with Current Keepers. Is this true? I didn't see it listed uner the tunnel motor details.
It is most certainly true for my gevo, and the tunnel motors came after the first runs of the gevos, so I assume yes. They are certainly nice to have, in any case. Mine keeps going for at least 5 seconds after power is cut.
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
It seems to me steam engines seem to be a little more tempermental regarding power pick-up. The only engines I currently have any 'keep alive' gizmos in are a couple of Bachmann steam engines. In one case, an older light 4-8-2, I had to remove some of the tender weights to make room for a sound decoder and speaker/enclosure, and had some trouble with electrical pick-up until adding the 'keep alive'.
wjstix It seems to me steam engines seem to be a little more tempermental regarding power pick-up.
It seems to me steam engines seem to be a little more tempermental regarding power pick-up.
That is certainly my case. I've added a TCS wowsound with keep alive capacitor to a 90s redbox Rivarossi Big Boy. That thing only picks up from one set of drivers on each engine, and the pilot and trailing wheels and nothing from the tender. I really like that extra insurance - the engine and sound keep moving for a good 16 seconds after power is cut, and the lights after about 20 seconds. That's a lot of track to cover!
Is it completely necessary on every locomotive? Probably not, but I think as I buy into DCC with sound most of my fleet will be equipped. I think we'll see it as standard equipment on DCC locomotives more and more.
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Keep alives are very good in old, small wheelbase brass steam. Not as important in modern all wheel pick up models. Almost all my small stuff has keep alives and they do make a big difference.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
BNSF UP and others modeler It is most certainly true for my gevo, and the tunnel motors came after the first runs of the gevos, so I assume yes. They are certainly nice to have, in any case. Mine keeps going for at least 5 seconds after power is cut.
If so, I"m just surprised it's not in the features list. I have a layout planned but not built so I won't be able to see if mine go for 5 seconds after the power is cut
Absolutely not required, at least on 'regular' size locos. And up to #6 turnouts (so far I have no used larger ones). With unpoered frongs, none of my locos had a problem crossing Atlas #6 turnouts even at slow speed, but thy were all 8 wheel pickup, Alco S2 probably the smallest. None had keep alive circuits. On my last layout, even a bachmann 44 tonner went over unpowered Atlas #4's without a problem - no keep alive.
A #8 or larger turnout may pose a problem for all but larger lcos - unless you power the frog, then there should be no issue no matter how small the locos. Good trackwork, solid feeders - that fixes EVERY loooco at the same time, as opposed to fixing one at a time by installing a keep alive.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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