I have two 20AMP circuits providing power for the train layout room. The ceiling fluorescent lights (15 T8 dual bulb fixtures with 32W bulbs (15*2*32W = 960W = 8 AMPs)) were supposed to be on their own 15AMP circuit however the electrician did not wire it that way originally. I plan to fix that in the next week.
Because I prefer to have a single on/off switch for the whole layout, all of the layout power is plugged into a single switched outlet. Unfortunately both of the switched outlets are on the circuit that the electrician wired the room lighting to (which I will be fixing). As I have added additional power supplies for the layout it has become increasingly common to pop the 20AMP breaker if I turn the layout power on while the room lighting is already on. In theory this problem should be resolved once I move the room lighting to it's own circuit. To get around this issue I turn the layout power on, let it stabilize for 5-10 seconds (to allow capacitors/etc to charge, etc) and then turn on the room lights.
However.... one time recently when I turned on the layout power while the room lighting was OFF the 20AMP breaker popped. Ru Ro. That kind of invalidates my theory that moving the room lights to its own circuit will FIX the problem.
Since I really would prefer to have a single on/off for the whole layout, I was wondering if there is some sort of electrical 'sequencer' that will turn on individual outlets (like in a power strip) in a delayed sequence sort of manner? This would attempt to spread out the current in-rush when all those power supplies are turned on.
Here are the current layout power consumers:
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
OnewolfI was wondering if there is some sort of electrical 'sequencer' that will turn on individual outlets (like in a power strip) in a delayed sequence sort of manner?
Take a look at the Lutron Casetta stuff.
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I found the Furman sequencers. https://www.furmanpower.com/product/15a-standard-power-conditioner-sequencer-M-8S
The 15Amp unit is about $300, but the 20Amp version is $640.
Couldn't you just run one or two more 20amp circuits? Even after the lights are seperated.
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewi Couldn't you just run one or two more 20amp circuits? Even after the lights are seperated. Mike.
How does that help my desire to have a single on/off switch for the entire layout? The room already has a 20AMP circuit that's basically not being used.
I guess I didn't read it carefully, my bad. What about a small sub panel, with a master switch?
I'll watch and see what you come up with.
Onewolf mbinsewi Couldn't you just run one or two more 20amp circuits? Even after the lights are seperated. Mike. How does that help my desire to have a single on/off switch for the entire layout? The room already has a 20AMP circuit that's basically not being used.
You could break the layout power into more circuits, and have all the circuits switched by a single switch which controls a contactor (multi pole power relay).
If you are unfamilar with how this could be done, any GOOD electrician should be able to make this change for you by adding a contactor in or near the panel.
It will depend somewhat on how the various circuits are wired thru out the building.
At my old house I just moved from, I had my model workshop in the basement and layout in the 2nd floor of my detached garage.
Because my wife always complains I leave lights on, I wired all three basement circuits, two for lights and one for workbench power, to the switch at the top of the steps using a contactor.....
Sheldon
We had an electrician rewire our main panel in 2011. At first he installed AFCI breakers. These things were tripping all the time with just light loads. They were too sensitive to "cold inrush" and motor loads.
https://www.thespruce.com/what-is-an-arc-fault-1152477
Eventually these were all removed and standard breakers installed except where GFCI was required. No more false tripping. I wonder if you have these Arc Fault type breakers? I guess they were to become the new standard but, in my opinion, they haven't been proven or at least de-bugged fully.
My layout is fairly extensive and I have all the layout power on a latching relay, similar to a magnetic motor contactor. I have one "on" button and several palm kill switches around the layout. I've never measured the cold inrush current nor the stabilized current but I can not imagine it is anything near twenty amps!
I'll have to measure it sometime. Do you have a clamp-on ammeter with peak-hold feature? Best to know what the actual load is on each circuit.
Good Luck, Ed
OnewolfHere are the current layout power consumers: Main Panel Digitrax 2012 18V 20AMP (DCS100, DB150 (track power PSX4), DB150 (turnout control)) Four 20AMP 12V (LED strip lighting) These draw 6-9 AMPs per light circuit 10AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 360W, 240W, 240W, 240W, 240W, 120W = 1440W Panel #2 (lower level return loop/staging) DCC Specialties 5AMP 15v power supply (DB150 (track power PSX3, PSX-AR)) 5AMP 5V Power Supply (RR-Cirkuts occupancy detection/display boards) 20AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 75W, 25W, 240W = 340W Panel #3 (Helix, upper level return loop/staging) DCC Specialties 5AMP 15v power supply (DB150 (track power PSX4, PSX-AR)) 5AMP 5V Power Supply (RR-Cirkuts occupancy detection/display boards) 10AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 75W, 25W, 120W = 220W Panel #4 (Main Yard/Loco Service) DCC Specialties 5AMP 15v power supply (DB150 (track power PSX2)) 10AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 75W, 120W = 195W
I must be reading this wrong but
1440W 340W 220W+ 195W=2195W
20 amps X 110 volts = 2200 watts
That circuit is maxed out. The LED strip lights (960 watts) should have their own circuit.
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Onewolf Here are the current layout power consumers: Main Panel Digitrax 2012 18V 20AMP (DCS100, DB150 (track power PSX4), DB150 (turnout control)) Four 20AMP 12V (LED strip lighting) These draw 6-9 AMPs per light circuit 10AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 360W, 240W, 240W, 240W, 240W, 120W = 1440W Panel #2 (lower level return loop/staging) DCC Specialties 5AMP 15v power supply (DB150 (track power PSX3, PSX-AR)) 5AMP 5V Power Supply (RR-Cirkuts occupancy detection/display boards) 20AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 75W, 25W, 240W = 340W Panel #3 (Helix, upper level return loop/staging) DCC Specialties 5AMP 15v power supply (DB150 (track power PSX4, PSX-AR)) 5AMP 5V Power Supply (RR-Cirkuts occupancy detection/display boards) 10AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 75W, 25W, 120W = 220W Panel #4 (Main Yard/Loco Service) DCC Specialties 5AMP 15v power supply (DB150 (track power PSX2)) 10AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 75W, 120W = 195W I must be reading this wrong but 1440W 340W 220W+ 195W=2195W 20 amps X 110 volts = 2200 watts That circuit is maxed out. The LED strip lights (960 watts) should have their own circuit.
Onewolf Here are the current layout power consumers: Main Panel Digitrax 2012 18V 20AMP (DCS100, DB150 (track power PSX4), DB150 (turnout control)) Four 20AMP 12V (LED strip lighting) These draw 6-9 AMPs per light circuit 10AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 360W, 240W, 240W, 240W, 240W, 120W = 1440W Panel #2 (lower level return loop/staging) DCC Specialties 5AMP 15v power supply (DB150 (track power PSX3, PSX-AR)) 5AMP 5V Power Supply (RR-Cirkuts occupancy detection/display boards) 20AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 75W, 25W, 240W = 340W Panel #3 (Helix, upper level return loop/staging) DCC Specialties 5AMP 15v power supply (DB150 (track power PSX4, PSX-AR)) 5AMP 5V Power Supply (RR-Cirkuts occupancy detection/display boards) 10AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 75W, 25W, 120W = 220W Panel #4 (Main Yard/Loco Service) DCC Specialties 5AMP 15v power supply (DB150 (track power PSX2)) 10AMP 12V (Structure lighting) 75W, 120W = 195W
The power supplies only consume the power needed for their given load. All the power supplies are providing only 25%-40% of their rated power (in order to help their longevity). I have an ammeter showing the real-time current being used by the layout and it's typically around 6AMPS total. It's the inrush/startup current load that's the problem.
two questions what is the start up current and what brand of box/breakers are you using ?
Are the breakers arc fault?
What brand are they?
Standard design practice says circuits should only be loaded to 80%
20 amps x 120 volts x .8 = 1920 watts
Depending on inrush, circuit breaker trip some where between 80% and 110% of their "rated" current.
I have always been a fan of fewer but bigger power supplies, but I know that goes against lots of current product trends.
If they are arc fault, that is the real problem. Seen this before as noted above by Ed. Arc fault is not a perfect science, I will stop at that...........
What Sheldon suggested witha contactor is exactly how I intend to wire my basement. The room lighting will be its own circuit, because you need to be able to turn the room lights on and off in 3 places to get from the house to the garage or outside at the lower front door (I have 2 front doors). I want the layout power completely separate from this, and controllable in two places, at the top of the basement stairs or down in the basement, with a pilot light. Being a fraction f the size, I doubt I will need a whole lot of extra circuits but I am planning for 2x 20 amp for the outlets which layout gear plugs in to, both circuits switched on and off by the switches with pilot lights. WHile technically I know how to wire this myself, and since the basement power will be a sub panel away from my main breaker box it will be pretty safe to work on, I'm still having an electrician do it. Part of that is because I don't trust what was done by the previous owners, given the (shoddy) quality of their wall finishing, I can only imagine they took shortcuts with the electric as well. I'm sure the washer (and dryer, though it's gas, it still uses a 120 connection for the motor and timer) are on the same circuit as the rest of the basement outlets. If I'm lucky, the 3 circulator pumps and power supply for the gas furnace are already on a dedicated circuit but there are no guarantees. Once the walls and ceiling have been gutted, I will be correcting anything that needs it before new walls go up. Since the main panel is on the far side of the garage and it is nearly impossible to snake more wires through the limited space above the garage ceiling, I am installing a subpanel in the basement for all the new stuff. I actually have plenty of empty slots in the main panel, but trying to route everything back there will be a nightmare.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Out of curiosity Ichecked the curredt on my layout. As I mentioned above I made a latching relay for power on and I can kill it by pressing several NC momentary palm switches around the fascia.
Layout_amps2 by Edmund, on Flickr
The orange wire forms the loop for the kill switch. Machine tool relay inside the box. There's only one "ON" pushbutton.
Layout_amps3 by Edmund, on Flickr
As you can see I'm pulling 2.6 amps. That feeds three Digitrax DCS 200s, 4 lighting transformers a transformer for Tortoise supply, a battery charger and a few under layout LED strip lights.
Regards, Ed
Here is where ALL the power for the layout is coming from while powered up (with a single On/Off wall switch). 5.43 AMPs.
And the peak current (5.16 AMPs) for the room lights when they are turned on:
So in a steady state the circuit is consuming about 10.5 amps for all the room lighting (15 dual 32w T8 fluorescent light fixtures) and the whole layout (all the afore-mentioned power supplies).
The breaker in the panel for this 20 amp circuit:
I plan to run a new 15amp circuit for the room lighting to get the lights off the 20amp layout power switched circuit.
Thanks for all the replies so far.
That is a standard breaker so look for a standard problem like a loose wire or a ground wire touching a hot wire or the hot side of an outlet or switch. See if you can duplicate the problem and cause the breaker to trip. You might have to plug in one device at a time if the problem is a device. Check all wall warts and see if any of them feel unusually warm. Since you say that lights are on the same circuit the problem might be in the lights. I recently fixed a problem like this in a new house where a handyman had pulled a switch out of the wall box to install wood paneling. When he shoved the switch back into the box the ground wire ended up touching a screw on the hot side of the switch which tripped the breaker. There was nothing wrong with the breaker. It was doing it’s job.
The circuit breaker pops only about 1 in 10 times when I turn on the 'layout power'. It has happened only one time when the lights were not already on. I suspect it's simply the in-rush current starting up all the layout power supplies spikes enough to pop the breaker. I think taking the lights off the same 20amp circuit should resolve the problem 99% of the time. Hoping we get a cold front to make the attic bearable this weekend.
Onewolf The circuit breaker pops only about 1 in 10 times when I turn on the 'layout power'. It has happened only one time when the lights were not already on. I suspect it's simply the in-rush current starting up all the layout power supplies spikes enough to pop the breaker. I think taking the lights off the same 20amp circuit should resolve the problem 99% of the time. Hoping we get a cold front to make the attic bearable this weekend.
A few more thoughts....from an electrician/electrical design draftsman.....
If the lights are wired for the 20 amp circuit now, using #12 wire, when you separate them, use #12 wire for the new feeder and put them on a 20 amp breaker. There is no logical reason to put them on a 15 amp breaker.
Have you tried replacing the offending breaker? I know your building is new, but they do go bad, they do have defects, even Square D.
Are you using power strips to plug in any of these power supplies or are the plugged directly in to hard wired outlets?
It is possible you have a bad power strip, or a single device with some sort of problem.
Yes, hard to trouble shoot with the intermittent nature of the problem.