The layout I'm building is basically 2 ft x 4 ft and the focus of it is made up of four triple ladders (2 right hand and 2 left hand). I am wiring it for DC. Primarily my power will come to these rows of switches from the point end, but I see in The Complete Atlas Wiring Book (p. 13) where spurs are powered from the frog side of the switch as long as the rail connected to the frog is insulated. That's straight forward enough, but since my ladders are opposing hands, it seems as though I would insulate my positive rail in one instance and the common rail with the other hand set of ladder switches. Does this make any difference? Also, the book shows these spurs as connected to an electrical switch, but wouldn't it be fine just to leave them powered when the block is powered? Thanks for any help on this. Jim
The Atlas wiring in their boosk is all common rail, so it DOES matter which rail is insulated and which gets power. They use a switch to control power to each siding individually so you can park a train on one and run another train into a different track. if you aren't going to do that, you don't need insulated joines but having additional feeders past the frog is a goood idea for reliable power.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hello all,
I am looking at pg. 13 in The Complete Atlas Wiring Book.
There are three diagrams; Fig. 2-9,-10 and -11.
All the diagrams use the Atlas Controller (#220) and the Atlas Selector (#215).
Fig. 2-10 shows how to wire a reverse loop with the selector. Is that what you are referring to?
Are you planning on using Atlas components or something else?
If you look on pg. 10; fig. 2-4, the top pane, shows a switch ladder that uses common rail with individual control for each leg. Where the "hot" or "+" rails are gapped or insulated.
Are you trying to wire your yard like this?
To make a right hand ladder (mirror image) the wiring is the same only the turnouts diverge in the opposite direction.
The polarity of the tracks remain the same; the "top" or gapped rail is the "+" and the "bottom" rail remains the common.
If you are adding more cabs then that's where the Selector and Controllers come into play.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnit Hello all, I am looking at pg. 13 in The Complete Atlas Wiring Book. There are three diagrams; Fig. 2-9,-10 and -11. All the diagrams use the Atlas Controller (#220) and the Atlas Selector (#215). Fig. 2-10 shows how to wire a reverse loop with the selector. Is that what you are referring to? Are you planning on using Atlas components or something else? If you look on pg. 10; fig. 2-4, the top pane, shows a switch ladder that uses common rail with individual control for each leg. Where the "hot" or "+" rails are gapped or insulated. Are you trying to wire your yard like this? To make a right hand ladder (mirror image) the wiring is the same only the turnouts diverge in the opposite direction. The polarity of the tracks remain the same; the "top" or gapped rail is the "+" and the "bottom" rail remains the common. If you are adding more cabs then that's where the Selector and Controllers come into play. Hope this helps.
In my 1992 version of the book, I have on page 13 what you have on page 10. Yes, this is the concept I am using for my yard ladder wiring.
rrinker The Atlas wiring in their boosk is all common rail, so it DOES matter which rail is insulated and which gets power. They use a switch to control power to each siding individually so you can park a train on one and run another train into a different track. if you aren't going to do that, you don't need insulated joines but having additional feeders past the frog is a goood idea for reliable power. --Randy I don't understand when you say that I don't need insulated joines. I want additional feeders past the frogs, but don't want to create a short. Seems like insulating at least one rail takes care of that.
I don't understand when you say that I don't need insulated joines. I want additional feeders past the frogs, but don't want to create a short. Seems like insulating at least one rail takes care of that.
rrinker The Atlas wiring in their boosk is all common rail, so it DOES matter which rail is insulated and which gets power. They use a switch to control power to each siding individually so you can park a train on one and run another train into a different track. if you aren't going to do that, you don't need insulated joines but having additional feeders past the frog is a goood idea for reliable power. --Randy
Atlas turnouts do not cause shorts no matter how you link them or where you put feeders. Look at the turnout, how the track goes, and realize that the rails continue under the frog. They do NOT connect. The rail on the right is the rail on the right all the way through EITHER route of the turnout, the rail on the left is the rail on the left all the way through either route. The frog is completely isolated.
My last two layouts have had feeders installed on both rails of all 3 legs of each turnout for reliable power. There is no problem at all doing this with Atlas turnouts.
yellow_cadIn my 1992 version of the book...
Yes, I have the 2011 version. Thank you for the clarification.
yellow_cad...this is the concept I am using for my yard ladder wiring.
Just think of each ladder as a separate block.
Before converting to DCC my pike had 16 DC blocks with dual-cab control.
This required the use of the Atlas Controller (#220) and four Atlas Selectors (#215). Each output of the selector went to an individual block, in your case each ladder.
Every block was separated on the "+" rail with an insulated rail joiner on each end (gapping the rails achieves the same results).
If you are only using a single cab then you can use SPST toggle or rocker switches to control the "hot" "+" side while the other rails are the "common" or "-".
Reversing the polarity, on what you describe as the opposite ladder, will cause the locomotive(s) to create a short between the two blocks.
The last page of the first chapter; fig. 1-7, shows how polarity affects the DC motor and defines "direction".
A trick that is often used is to take a red and black markers and trace the electrical path of each rail by marking the sides of the rails. Another method is use colored tape and mark the ties on each side.
This helps in situations where the polarity might be confusing.
rrinker Atlas turnouts do not cause shorts no matter how you link them or where you put feeders.
The original poster doesn't have Atlas turnouts. At least, I don't think he does, based on this post from an earlier thread.
yellow_cadI am doing a small yard layout and in it I am using four yard point triple turnouts. These are Shinohara not for DCC
He said he's using the Shinohara "Yard Point" assemblies. This image is the N scale version, I think, but the overall arrangment is the same.
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That's kind of important information for the wiring question as well.
Sorry about that. I should have made clear that my yard ladders are Shinohara live frog switches. I had an earlier post and neglected to give enough info in this post. It still appears that the Atlas wiring book illustration would apply to live frog switches, but I could be wrong. I basically have 6 spurs (2 ladders end to end) going in one direction, and 6 spurs (2 ladders end to end) going in the other direction. Each will be a DC block at a minimum. I do wish to provide power to all spurs.
Can I isolate the positive rail on one set of ladders, and isolate the negative rail on the other set of ladders to successfully isolate the spurs so they can utilize a direct power feed?
Maybe I still have the wrong end of the stick, with your track plan.
The rails beyond the green frog rails have different polarities from each other so you absolutely need insulators where they show yellow insulators.
The top rail of the straight route and the bottom rail of the diverging route need to be fed power separately from the turnout. If you put a switch in those feeders, you have a block, that you can turn the power off. It makes sense to me to put switches on the spurs and leave the straight route powered.
It's electrically possible to insulate the stock rail and put a switch there, but it looks like more work for no advantage to me.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
For power routing turnouts like those, you do need the insulate joiners, on the center rails on the frog side as shown in the above post. Those are the only 2 rails that change polarity depending on the point position. For track beyond the turnouts, you add feeders to both rails. If you don;t need to control the power to the track past the turnout, you can just wire them to the same feeders that feed before the turonout, the insulated joiners will keep things from shorting, unless you run a train in the frog side witht he points set the wrong way, but even if it didn;t short, the train would derail anyway.
To do it the Atlas way, with common rail wiring and toggle control of the power, you would need insulated joiners in all 4 rails after the frog, and then wire the correct rail that is the common rail to the common rail on the point side and power feeds to the other rail via the control switch. If your common rail is the right rail before the turnout, then it will still be the right rail in either leg of the turnout after the frog.
Thanks so much for the help on this.