Hello members, I am in the planning stages of my layout, originally I was going to run HO but after seeing what is available, along with my available space I am going N-Scale with KATO equipment, the reason being for KATO after reading many of the forums it just seems to work well. My issue is that I do not really know a lot about either wiring system to develop a decision tree. My layout will be two 80 by 30 doors in an L shape and I would like to run two trains.
Thank you.
As soon as you said "two trains," you put yourself into DCC. In DC, you run the track. In DCC, you run the trains. To run multiple trains in DC, you need to block-wire the layout and you will spend a lot of time flipping toggles. DCC greatly simplifies all of that.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I ditto Beasley's post. As for wiring, I recommend Allan Gartner's website "Wiring For DCC."
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Hi,
Took me a minute to figure out what "80 by 30 doors" meant.........
I will not knock DC, but would recommend DCC. Some may say its complicated and expensive, but it is only as much so as you want it to be.
Do pick up some of the Kalmbach "beginner" books, including N Scale Primer and the DCC books. If you can't get new, used are always on Ebay.
ENJOY!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Jerry M Hello members, I am in the planning stages of my layout, originally I was going to run HO but after seeing what is available, along with my available space I am going N-Scale with KATO equipment, the reason being for KATO after reading many of the forums it just seems to work well. My issue is that I do not really know a lot about either wiring system to develop a decision tree. My layout will be two 80 by 30 doors in an L shape and I would like to run two trains. Thank you.
A few questions and a few thoughts:
Are you intertested in locomotives with sound? If yes, go DCC and don't look back. Especially if you are starting fresh and buying new current locos.
Are you a lone operator or do you have friends that will run operating sessions with you?
Trying to run more than one train by yourself is hard unless the layout is large, and/or you have dedicated routes for each train.
If you have dedicated routes for each train, than DC does not require a lot of "toggle flipping". In fact there are a number of DC advanced cab control wiring schemes that allow multi train operation on a single route with no, or very minimal "toggle flippng", many such systems have been well documented in MR and other books/mags going back 70 years or more.............
So much for the toggle flipping myth........
I run 4 trains on a double track mainline with CTC and signaling, all done in DC. With a dispatcher on duty, the four engineers simply obey the signals and control the speed/direction of their trains - they never touch a "block toggle". If they run a red signal, ATC just stops their train.......
Oh, that's right, my layout does not have block toggles..........it has route control push buttons that set turnout/interlocking routes with one touch, and cab assignment push buttons that set routes/clear signals/assign power all at once.
When the dispatcher is not taking care of that at his panel, engineers can use redundant controls at local tower panels as they progress around with their trains.
Point is, all stereotypes about DC control are pretty much wrong.....
But again, if you want sound go DCC for sure.
Personally, the only way I run more than one train by myself is to have other trains on dedicated routes while I actually "run" just one train. DCC poses no real advantage there.
Here are the real advantages of DCC:
Being able to back/pull one loco right up to another loco that is parked.
Being able to have and control onboard sound.
Being able to have and control complex loco lights.
Being able to stage a "cornfield meet"........
Being able to speed match and/or consist a wide variety of locos.
Being able to seperately control helpers/pushers.
Still very happy with my quiet DC powered trains........
Sheldon
I operate my layouts alone, and generally only run one train at a time. I don't have the mental capacity to run two trains at once.
.
I do not use DCC.
With only one train operating, you do not run the track. I switch the point position on my turnouts and the power routing feature does all the work for me. Kato turnouts have this feature built in.
If you want two operators on the same track... DCC is the only way to go.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 . If you want two operators on the same track... DCC is the only way to go. . -Kevin .
Once again, even as a DC operator, you apparently have never seen a well designed DC Advanced Cab Control system in action.
The real railroads go to great length to prevent two trains from occupying the same space at the same time. Many great DC control systems over the years simulate that prototype feature of signaling/protection rather well with very minimal user input via "toggles" or other switches.
I don't know if it is still in use today, but for decades the Severna Park Model Railroad Club, well published in MR, has run mutli train DC on a single track loop to loop layout with no block toggles.......
I have a moderately large layout, but when operating alone I run only one train at a time. Occasionally there are multiple guest operators.
DCC allows me to have several engines parked at various locations around the layout either on warm standby or completely dead cold and leave them there indefinitely.
DC systems also allow trains to sit idly by, but the layout has to have provisions to isolate sidings and yard ladders and whatnot so that parked trains stay parked. Not a big deal, and many on this forum function perfectly well in such environments, but it is a consideration.
DCC also allows me to speed match disparate locos and change normal running direction (and associated directional lighting effects) so that tail-to-tail consisting is easy to do. Also possible in DC, but some fiddling required.
And like most things in life . . . your mileage my vary.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I got back into MR after a couple decade break. I read some negative comments about sound in this and other places. I tried it, and I love it. From the factory, it is too loud for most of us, but that is easy to change.
That puts me in the DCC camp.
Wiring for DCC is a great reference site, but one of the Kalmbach DCC books would be a more friendly intro for a newbie.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
ROBERT PETRICK I have a moderately large layout, but when operating alone I run only one train at a time. Occasionally there are multiple guest operators. DCC allows me to have several engines parked at various locations around the layout either on warm standby or completely dead cold and leave them there indefinitely. DC systems also allow trains to sit idly by, but the layout has to have provisions to isolate sidings and yard ladders and whatnot so that parked trains stay parked. Not a big deal, and many on this forum function perfectly well in such environments, but it is a consideration. DCC also allows me to speed match disparate locos and change normal running direction (and associated directional lighting effects) so that tail-to-tail consisting is easy to do. Also possible in DC, but some fiddling required. And like most things in life . . . your mileage my vary. Robert
OK, a few last comments then I have stuff to do.
Robert, your comments are fair and correct, but subject to the specific needs of each modeler. Not sure I understand your comment about consisting requiring fiddling in DC - see below.
In my case, like Kevin also commented, it is very easy to wire a DC layout so that any section of track isolated by an unfavorable turnout position is dead - allowing locos/trains to be parked by the one same action you would do on a DCC layout, throw the turnout against it to allow other trains to move past.
That's how much of my layout works. Turnout position controls a great many things.
Consisting, double heading, speed matching - for the modeling choices of some, this is a good reason for having DCC - but many don't need it, and many, if not most with DCC, use very little of those features.
In my case I model the early 50's, most all my diesel lashups are matched sets, they run fine together, just like we did with DC for decades before DCC.
And I double/triple head all sorts of steam, mixed and matched wheel arrangements and brands. As well as steam with diesel. I have never altered a loco to acheave such operation. And yes, some matchups just don't work.
Headlights - again my era, the early 50's, no ditch lights, daytime headlights were just becoming the norm, simple directional constant brighness setups work fine for me. Especially given the electrical nature of the pulse width control siginal from the Aristo throttles - 12 volt pulses light headlights before the train moves......
If you take two DC powered F7's with directional lighting, place them back to back, they run the same direction with no modifications, and the one in the rear, going in "reverse", has its headlight off, without having to "change any settings".
DC trains don't know forward or reverse, they simply move in the direction that places the positive rail on the right hand side of the direction of travel.
Got to go now,
You are correct, Henry, about Gartner's site. it can be a bit daunting for a newbie. But, that is how I jumped into DCC, so I am biased.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Not sure I understand your comment about consisting requiring fiddling in DC - see below. If you take two DC powered F7's with directional lighting, place them back to back, they run the same direction with no modifications, and the one in the rear, going in "reverse", has its headlight off, without having to "change any settings". DC trains don't know forward or reverse, they simply move in the direction that places the positive rail on the right hand side of the direction of travel. Got to go now, Sheldon
Not sure I understand your comment about consisting requiring fiddling in DC - see below.
Hang on a second . . .
I have never run a DC train, but if what you say is true (and I have every reason to believe that it is), then this is something I didn't know.
Suppose you had a simple oval of track and placed an engine on it with its nose pointing to run clockwise and the command control station switch set to 'forward' and advanced the throttle. The engine would run 'forward'. Simple. Then you picked up the engine and rotated it 180 degrees and placed it so that its nose and tail were pointing the opposite directions. Are you saying that if the command station switch is still set to 'forward' and you advanced the throttle that the train would run clockwise, tail first? I thought you DC guys had to flip the gears or rotate the motor mount or something to have (more or less permanent) tail-to-tail consists.
I guess this falls into the category of learning something new every day.
Thanks for the info.
ATLANTIC CENTRALOnce again, even as a DC operator, you apparently have never seen a well designed DC Advanced Cab Control system in action.
That sounds like it is for mainline operations. I have no desire to ever run heavy mainline operations again.
ROBERT PETRICKI thought you DC guys had to flip the gears or rotate the motor mount or something to have (more or less permanent) tail-to-tail consists.
Nope. We don't have to do anything at all. If I have two Geeps running long hoods together (cabs out), they both run the same direction.
If I pick one up and turn it 180 degress so they both have the cabs on the same end, they both still run the same direction.
I am absolutely not saying DC is better, not at all. DCC is the cat's meow to be sure, but it just is not for me.
ROBERT PETRICKSuppose you had a simple oval of track and placed an engine on it with its nose pointing to run clockwise and the command control station switch set to 'forward' and advanced the throttle. The engine would run 'forward'. Simple. Then you picked up the engine and rotated it 180 degrees and placed it so that its nose and tail were pointing the opposite directions. Are you saying that if the command station switch is still set to 'forward' and you advanced the throttle that the train would run clockwise, tail first?
Yep. In DC, no matter which orientation you place a locomotive on the track, it will run in only one direction (i.e. CW or CCW)...until you reverse the polarity of the track. This is usually done by moving a slide switch on your DC transformer. In DCC, if you rotate your locomotive 180 degrees, it will run in the opposite direction. In other words: Forward will always be forward and reverse will always be reverse.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
This thread is starting to degenerate into the DC vs DCC debate. I run DCC and quite frankly if it were not for DCC I probably would still be with a DC 8X4 layout with one very small yard and a mainline oval. In my opinion, wiring for DCC is, in fact, easier, than wiring for DC because you dont need all those blocks and all those toggle switches. Yeah, Sheldon, I know, but I am wiring challenged so bear with me. If DC works for you...great. If you prefer DCC...fantastic.
Soon, I am sure, that the debate will go to RailPro vs DCC. and we all get to talk about our druthers for the millionth time.
Having started in DC and converted to DCC on my 1st layout, I suggest DCC. FYIL the upfront costs of DCC are higher for the throttle, etc. I like the independent ability to run different trains at various speeds and directions.
Best to read about the differences in a wiring book and then make your decision.
bearman This thread is starting to degenerate into the DC vs DCC debate. I run DCC and quite frankly if it were not for DCC I probably would still be with a DC 8X4 layout with one very small yard and a mainline oval. In my opinion, wiring for DCC is, in fact, easier, than wiring for DC because you dont need all those blocks and all those toggle switches. Yeah, Sheldon, I know, but I am wiring challenged so bear with me. If DC works for you...great. If you prefer DCC...fantastic. Soon, I am sure, that the debate will go to RailPro vs DCC. and we all get to talk about our druthers for the millionth time.
I have nothing against DCC. I have used it quite a bit. I have helped design, build, wire and operate a number of large DCC "basement empires".
What bugs me in these discussions is the mis-information about DC.
Like the conversation above about direction control, or the idea that running multiple powered locos in a lashup is a problem, OR, the idea that ALL DC layouts use "block toggles" - again, no block toggles at my house.....
Yes, the wiring on my layout is complex. It took planning and design work. But my layout is pretty large, and somewhat complex. But more importantly my control system is intergrated - meaning that turnout control, signaling, CTC, and control power to track, are all part of same system.
My throttles are wireless radio handheld units much easier to use than most DCC throttles.
How many DCC layouts have you visited/built with CTC and signaling? Do you realize how much more complex that makes DCC wiring? What kind of turnout controls do you use? Mine provide one button route selection through complex interlockings, and turnouts can be operated from multiple locations.
Comparing what I do to DCC is apples to oranges unless you include signals and CTC and some sort of advanced turnout control (like stationary decoders) on the DCC layout. Then you find out my system is no more complex to wire than a DCC system with those features - just different.
DCC with signals requires "blocks"........
And guess what I don't need?
No feeder drops every six feet - each "block" has only one feeder.
No boosters, circuit breakers or auto reversers.
Best of all no decoders - I run lots of long trains, most pulled by 3-4 diesels or two steamers. It takes about 100 "powered units" to power the 30 trains that the layout can "stage". I own about 135 locos x $30 for a good non sound decoder = $4,000.
Running long trains on my big mainline with signals and CTC is what I like most - DCC adds little to that experiance at considerable additional expense and effort.
It is not about one being better, it is about meeting specific goals at the lowest cost and highest play value.
My signals are not run by a computer, they actually use relay circuits just like the real railroad used in the era I model.
Another important point - I don't use onboard sound - I don't like it, another reason why I don't need the expense or complexity of DCC.
DCC wiring is often not complex, especially on small or medium sized layouts with manual turnouts and no signals. But DCC has it own complexities - adjusting CV's, changing directions for A-A consists, etc.
Again, my issue is using mis information about DC to promote DCC.
Okay, can we please get back to the regularly schedule program?
Thanks,
ROBERT PETRICK ATLANTIC CENTRAL Not sure I understand your comment about consisting requiring fiddling in DC - see below. If you take two DC powered F7's with directional lighting, place them back to back, they run the same direction with no modifications, and the one in the rear, going in "reverse", has its headlight off, without having to "change any settings". DC trains don't know forward or reverse, they simply move in the direction that places the positive rail on the right hand side of the direction of travel. Got to go now, Sheldon Hang on a second . . . I have never run a DC train, but if what you say is true (and I have every reason to believe that it is), then this is something I didn't know. Suppose you had a simple oval of track and placed an engine on it with its nose pointing to run clockwise and the command control station switch set to 'forward' and advanced the throttle. The engine would run 'forward'. Simple. Then you picked up the engine and rotated it 180 degrees and placed it so that its nose and tail were pointing the opposite directions. Are you saying that if the command station switch is still set to 'forward' and you advanced the throttle that the train would run clockwise, tail first? I thought you DC guys had to flip the gears or rotate the motor mount or something to have (more or less permanent) tail-to-tail consists. I guess this falls into the category of learning something new every day. Thanks for the info. Robert
Well Robert, its not called a "command control station" and the direction switch is not labled "forward" and "reverse".
So you have never operated a DC model train, and I have hundreds of hours running DCC trains and choose not to use that system on my own layout.
It is a shame that some of the most fundimental elements of electricity and mechanics are not common knowledge today.
Think of DC direction control like this, forget about an oval. You are standing in front of 20' of straight track. If the rail closest to you is positive, the train will move from your left to your right, no matter which way the loco is facing.
Change the polarity to make the far rail positive, the locos moves from your right to your left - every time.
On my layout, I purposely designed my track plan so the train never reverses in viewing position. So the operator is in theory always facing north and left is west, right is east. My wireless throttles have two buttons for direction, the left button makes the train move left or west, the right button makes the train move right or east.
Trains do go around "reverse loops", but that is too much to explain right now.
tstage Okay, can we please get back to the regularly schedule program? Thanks, Tom
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Once again, even as a DC operator, you apparently have never seen a well designed DC Advanced Cab Control system in action. . That sounds like it is for mainline operations. I have no desire to ever run heavy mainline operations again. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Once again, even as a DC operator, you apparently have never seen a well designed DC Advanced Cab Control system in action.
I love heavy mainline CTC operations.......and industrial switching.
My layout has several "industrial switching layouts" imbeded within it that are operated independently of the mainline operations.
Just like most protoype operations in any major city.
I can put 2-4 trains on display loops on the main while I operate the yard and ISL's separately.
The OP asked about DC vs DCC That makes a DC vs DCC debate fair game.
Seems like we have had a pretty fair and civil discussion so far and people are going to have different opinions. You don't see fair or civil much anymore these days outside of model railroading.
BigDaddy The OP asked about DC vs DCC That makes a DC vs DCC debate fair game. Seems like we have had a pretty fair and civil discussion so far and people are going to have different opinions. You don't see fair or civil much anymore these days outside of model railroading.
Seems to me your are correct Henry, and all I expect is for people with little or no knowledge of DC to avoid using incorrect information to disparage DC.
DCC can stand on its own merrits and short commings. So can DC.
I myself listed DCC's strengths over DC, and agree that those who like sound should be in DCC no questions asked.
But somehow it is ok for the uninformed to repeat whatever "myth" they were told about DC, or what they saw on one poorly built control system. And I am the bad guy because I don't roll over for it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL How many DCC layouts have you visited/built with CTC and signaling? Do you realize how much more complex that makes DCC wiring? What kind of turnout controls do you use? Mine provide one button route selection through complex interlockings, and turnouts can be operated from multiple locations.
Hmmm... where is WP8thSub when I need him? Rob is working on eventually installing signals on his NEC powered layout (can't remember if its ABS or CTC but still)... and I am sure he knows as well as I do that Gary Peterson's layout is a fully operational DCC set up with full CTC and a remote dispatcher. Just saying, CTC on a DCC layout is not unheard of even if the particulars of the system are different than on a DC layout. Anyways... I have no experience with DC at all. So I will not try and chime in with any thing to say about it. My DCC experience though has been good, even though I am at home a lone wolf operator. The sound functions have been worth it for me, and I love the way my sound equipped engines make the model come to life. And wiring was pretty easy to understand, just needed feeders to keep each track alive and my engines just run everywhere I want them to.
xboxtravis7992 ATLANTIC CENTRAL How many DCC layouts have you visited/built with CTC and signaling? Do you realize how much more complex that makes DCC wiring? What kind of turnout controls do you use? Mine provide one button route selection through complex interlockings, and turnouts can be operated from multiple locations. Hmmm... where is WP8thSub when I need him? Rob is working on eventually installing signals on his NEC powered layout (can't remember if its ABS or CTC but still)... and I am sure he knows as well as I do that Gary Peterson's layout is a fully operational DCC set up with full CTC and a remote dispatcher. Just saying, CTC on a DCC layout is not unheard of even if the particulars of the system are different than on a DC layout. Anyways... I have no experience with DC at all. So I will not try and chime in with any thing to say about it. My DCC experience though has been good, even though I am at home a lone wolf operator. The sound functions have been worth it for me, and I love the way my sound equipped engines make the model come to life. And wiring was pretty easy to understand, just needed feeders to keep each track alive and my engines just run everywhere I want them to.
I did not say that there are not DCC layouts with signals and CTC/ABS. I have helped build several, there are lots of them out there.
The point is that all notions of DCC wiring being simple go out the window as soon as you ad those features.
The wiring then becomes just as intense, just as complex, just as expensive as the most advanced and complex DC systems with those features.
And while I'm here, one more time, the idea that multi train operation on DC requires constant "toggle flipping" is also simply not true. Two cabs and block toggles is the most basic approach to DC multi train control, but it is by no means the best or most effective and is only suited to small/medium sized simple layouts with limited operational goals.
And just like Mel, I could "super impose" DCC on to my system and my CTC, signaling, turnout controls, and even my ATC (automatic train control) would still work fine.
And again, if you want sound, then the whole conversation is mute, you need DCC.
bearman This thread is starting to degenerate into the DC vs DCC debate.
This thread is starting to degenerate into the DC vs DCC debate.
Per the title of the topic, dcc vs non- dcc, the topic IS about the debate. It didn't degenerate, it started out that way. ;)
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Ok, I cry uncle.