Jamos Rienhard It has nothing to do with the deocder. There are plenty of soundtrax that have motor hum rtr for example. Its the way the moter is built or not secured. Decoder has nothing to do with this i have trains that have loksounds and economi or trunami 2 that hum at higher speeds. I have many that do not. Atlas lately is getting cheap in moter design as well as walthers mianline and athern RTR. I buy only from scaletrains now never has a hum at any speed
Rienhard
It has nothing to do with the deocder. There are plenty of soundtrax that have motor hum rtr for example. Its the way the moter is built or not secured. Decoder has nothing to do with this i have trains that have loksounds and economi or trunami 2 that hum at higher speeds. I have many that do not. Atlas lately is getting cheap in moter design as well as walthers mianline and athern RTR. I buy only from scaletrains now never has a hum at any speed
It DID have a lot to do with the decoder .... five years ago when this thread was created.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Mark R. The cradles vary on different models. This picture shows the majority of the cradles in my fleet. You can see the trapazoidal sides of the plastic cradle in the following picture. These need to be cut off. Basically cut back the material so it is flush with the flat sides of the motor itself .... Mark.
The cradles vary on different models. This picture shows the majority of the cradles in my fleet. You can see the trapazoidal sides of the plastic cradle in the following picture. These need to be cut off. Basically cut back the material so it is flush with the flat sides of the motor itself ....
Ah. So basically what we're hearing is the sides of the plastic cradle vibrating against the inner side of the plastic shell. Generally, no matter the exact shape of the cradle depending upon manufacturer, we should remove any material that might scrape the shell in some manner, where possible.
That sounds reasonabley easy, in theory.
- Douglas
Mark R. One cure I found to be 90% effective .... I found, by cutting the motor cradle back on both ends even with the sides of the motor, it gives about 1/16" clearance between the motor and the shell. That elimnated a huge amount of the noise.
One cure I found to be 90% effective ....
I found, by cutting the motor cradle back on both ends even with the sides of the motor, it gives about 1/16" clearance between the motor and the shell. That elimnated a huge amount of the noise.
Mark. I'm a bit confused as to exectly what you did. Can you please explain it differently?
Mark R. The problem isn't "unknown" .... Google Loksound Motor Buzz", you'll get quite a few results. I've had a few customers recently who bought the new Atlas 8-40CW engines with factory Loksound and were concerned with the motor buzz. Matt Herman of ESU was at my place a couple weeks ago and commented how loud the buzz was in a couple of my engines. They ARE aware of it, but unfortunately, until a new hardware is implemented, there is nothing they can do about it. My entire fleet of over 50 engines are all Atlas with Loksound decoders. I'd say about half run perfectly quiet (older Atlas / Kato yellow box) and the later releases are the ones that make the noise to a varying degree. The buzz is caused from the BEMF pulses setting up a mild vibration in motors that don't have tight tolerances between the armature shaft and the bronze bushings. The very slightest loose tolerance between the two will set up a vibration - the looser the tolerance, the more vibration and hence, the buzzing sound. One cure I found to be 90% effective .... The plastic motor cradle comes in contact with the shell. The vibration is transferred from the motor to the cradle to the shell which greatly amplifies it. I found, by cutting the motor cradle back on both ends even with the sides of the motor, it gives about 1/16" clearance between the motor and the shell. That elimnated a huge amount of the noise. I tried putting a piece of felt in that gap thinking it might absorb some more noise, but even that contact with the shell made it worse again. I really wish I had the means to video my two worse ones - they are quite obvious .... to the point anyone could hear those two. As mentioned before, they remind me of the old Atlas 340 / 341 decoders. Yes, I agree - for what we pay, we should be able to take them out of the box and have them perfect. The problem is / isn't the decoder .... yes, the decoder is the reason behind the buzz, but the cause behind the buzz is the poor tolerance motors (Athearn RTR is terrible). With a quality motor (Kato), that buzz is non-existant. Mark.
The problem isn't "unknown" .... Google Loksound Motor Buzz", you'll get quite a few results. I've had a few customers recently who bought the new Atlas 8-40CW engines with factory Loksound and were concerned with the motor buzz.
Matt Herman of ESU was at my place a couple weeks ago and commented how loud the buzz was in a couple of my engines. They ARE aware of it, but unfortunately, until a new hardware is implemented, there is nothing they can do about it.
My entire fleet of over 50 engines are all Atlas with Loksound decoders. I'd say about half run perfectly quiet (older Atlas / Kato yellow box) and the later releases are the ones that make the noise to a varying degree.
The buzz is caused from the BEMF pulses setting up a mild vibration in motors that don't have tight tolerances between the armature shaft and the bronze bushings. The very slightest loose tolerance between the two will set up a vibration - the looser the tolerance, the more vibration and hence, the buzzing sound.
The plastic motor cradle comes in contact with the shell. The vibration is transferred from the motor to the cradle to the shell which greatly amplifies it. I found, by cutting the motor cradle back on both ends even with the sides of the motor, it gives about 1/16" clearance between the motor and the shell. That elimnated a huge amount of the noise. I tried putting a piece of felt in that gap thinking it might absorb some more noise, but even that contact with the shell made it worse again.
I really wish I had the means to video my two worse ones - they are quite obvious .... to the point anyone could hear those two. As mentioned before, they remind me of the old Atlas 340 / 341 decoders.
Yes, I agree - for what we pay, we should be able to take them out of the box and have them perfect. The problem is / isn't the decoder .... yes, the decoder is the reason behind the buzz, but the cause behind the buzz is the poor tolerance motors (Athearn RTR is terrible). With a quality motor (Kato), that buzz is non-existant.
Mark, excellent reply! Yes, IMO, the buzz is basically vibration amplified by the shell. Squeezing the shell while its buzzing makes it worse. Adding stuffing to the innards doesn't help. Auto tuning BEMF with the F1 key, setting CV124 to 20, doesn't work either.
I'll try the motor cradle adjustment. That solution makes sense to me since I think motor vibration is the cause.
And for more data. The Atlas S2 settles down after setting cv124 to 20-24. I think the short wheel based switcher has a different motor than the longer wheelbased locos.
Also, I have an Atlas B23-7 with an aftermarket ESU. Its hard wired. Its a vintage with the Kato motor. No buzz. Lovely loco and decoder combo.
So I never bash ESU specifially for the problem. I think they probably designed the OEM decoder with higher quality motors in mind, then the manufacturer's switched to lesser motors which created unforseen consequences. Stuff happens in the hobby, but you'd think the producers would come up with a solution rather than releasing the product the way they are.
I can fix it by swapping to a 21 pin T2 (and deal with less than ideal slow speed motion performance), or wait for the rest of the community to come up with a work-around. Hopefully, the motor cradle adjustment works, if I feel so ambitious as to cut into a $250 loco.
Well, I guess that explains it. I have nothing with low end mootors, most of my rolling stock is all older stuff. Biggest part of my fleet are RS3's, and most of those are Atlas - the old Kato ones. My FT with Loksound is one of the ones with the Buehler motor. And my Bowser switchers, which spend most of their life on low speed steps, are the ones with Canon motors.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks! I knew there was a reason I've never heard it.
I run high end steamers with my Loksound decoders, and the brass ones have all been remotored with Mashima, Maxon and NWSL motors. Cheap motors are never good....
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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rrinker Some times I think you two are the only oens who DO notice it. I have some Loksound 3.5's in PCM locos, and a few Selects in Bowser locos. And I DO operate at slow speeds - my last layout was too small to run anything but slow unless I just wanted to watch the train zip around the room. I don't hear this buzzing, even when the sound is muted. I haven't heard it in any YouTube reviews of locos with Loksound. This has not been reported anywhere else. If it is as bad as you say I can't imagine this wouldn't be all over the hobby press. --Randy
Some times I think you two are the only oens who DO notice it. I have some Loksound 3.5's in PCM locos, and a few Selects in Bowser locos. And I DO operate at slow speeds - my last layout was too small to run anything but slow unless I just wanted to watch the train zip around the room. I don't hear this buzzing, even when the sound is muted. I haven't heard it in any YouTube reviews of locos with Loksound. This has not been reported anywhere else. If it is as bad as you say I can't imagine this wouldn't be all over the hobby press.
My comments are specific, and only refer to the noise in my specific locos.
If nobody else is talking about OEM, factory installed LokSound decoders in Atlas, IM, and FV diesels, then they may not be not talking about the same thing. I own 12 of these. They all do it.
To a degree all locos produce a hum, and decoder equipped locos produce slightly more. That's normal, and its easily masked by sound volume CVs set at even 10%.
OTOH, the buzz I hear is loud. Its the exact same buzz made by a 1990's Atlas GP38/40 with a dual mode Lenz 2 function decoder. Exactly the same tone. Probably the same decible. Its not an only-a-dog-can-hear-it thing. And it weakens as speed increases, so its BEMF related, IMO.
And I need to have the sound level up to 50%, or else it bleeds through otherwise nice sound.
I think Reinhard buys OEM sound locos, same kind as me for the most part. He also has a switching layout, slow speeds, in a drywalled and finished quiet spare room, with wheel noise from no more than five cars. Under those conditions, loco sound levels set at anything above 40% gets really annoying real quick. However, any underlying drivetrain noise or decoder hum is not drowned out. Underlying quality matters under those quiet ambient conditions.
I'm thinking the hobby press ignores it. The culture is to rave about LokSound, so I think the press just sings to the choir, doesn't fight the stream.
Or, I wonder if they even bother to test a muted loco on speed step 1 to judge inherent design and build quality? Who would run a sound equipped loco that way?
And youtube reviews aren't helpful, in that they seem to cater to most viewers, not really performing a thorough review. They spend 90% of the time talking about the shell details and what kind of horn it has, or if a stripe is a little off color, or how it sounds at idle and at 40mph. When they run them, they never run them on mute at slow speeds, so how would they know if it buzzed under those conditions?
BTW, these OEM locos tend to have the 21 pin plug-in variety decoder. Maybe its the factory motherboard specs. Maybe its how the electronics mate with the less-than-Kato quality motors that now seem to be the norm. I'm not blaming anybody specifically. Just pointing out the facts as they exist in my layout room, without exception.
I could always hear the squeal from CRT monitors, back before everyone had LCDs. Still don't hear noise from my locos.
Most all my engines have it to some degree - some worse than others.
Unfortunately, I have very sensitive hearing to high frequency that most others don't have. Back in the mid-80s, when digital dashboards in cars were the latest thing, I had to sell my car after three months because I could hear the display squealing. Dim the display down, it went away. Nobody at the dealer could hear it.
I hear Yanny
I also here it with my loksound select in my 80's vintage Atlas RS-3. I think it's a Kato. The layout is a mess right now or I would record a youtube.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
faraway There is notthing you can do about it. It works as designed but most will not notice it due to large layout or a noisy environment. I avoid all kind of ESU since V2 and install Tsunami 2 in all my engines. Sorry for the bad news. ps. You will get the recommendation to switch the motor control frequency and the switch BMF off at all. It will not help :-(
There is notthing you can do about it. It works as designed but most will not notice it due to large layout or a noisy environment. I avoid all kind of ESU since V2 and install Tsunami 2 in all my engines. Sorry for the bad news.
ps. You will get the recommendation to switch the motor control frequency and the switch BMF off at all. It will not help :-(
Reinhard. You are the only other who has noticed this noise. I 100% agree. My issues are with ESU LokSound in OEM Atlas, Intermountain, and Fox Valley diesel locomotives. No amount of CV adjustment, auto BEMF guidance, or anything else has helped on most. Some locos run with tolerable levels of buzz after some adjustment.
I assume turning off BEMF would result in jerky running on speed steps 1 or 2, since I thought that's what BEMF was designed to prevent.
Considering how prevelent the noise is on all of these brands of locos that I've purchased, I can't see how the issue isn't more well known. I will be replacing them with T2 as well as time and money become available.
It's a buzzing or humming sound as the subject of the thread says. Most people dont't hear or notice it. It is only present at very slow switching operations at a low volume. You will only notice it switching in a quite room a small layout with the engine directly in front of you. The volume differs with the kind of motor. In general are better motors more silent. But even the Rapido GMD-1 has a noticeable humming sound while the Bachmann 44ton is very close to no humming sound.
But there is nothing to discuss with those of you that don't hear it ;-)
ps. 40kHz is easy. 20kHz per ear and 10kHz from the front and 10kHz from the rear. Works perfect with some training ;-)
Reinhard
faraway To turn BEMF off is like running it on DC with some noise from the speaker ;-) Version 4 has the very same faulty motor control. ESU did not touch it since V2. Sorry, I am out of that fruitless dicussion.
To turn BEMF off is like running it on DC with some noise from the speaker ;-) Version 4 has the very same faulty motor control. ESU did not touch it since V2.
Sorry, I am out of that fruitless dicussion.
Please elaborate.
What is faulty? I have several Loksound decoders, both V2, 3.5 & 4.
None of them runs noisy or uneven.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Also, to clarify, the decoders in question are ESU Lokpilot "Standard," recentlly purchased new stock. Also, I don't think the "Standard" Lokpilot includes auto tune; at least, it doesn't auto tune for me (unlike my Loksound decoders, which do auto tune).
Well, if someone prefers ESU decoders before V3, then you might want a second opinion...
The new ESU V4 decoders features auto tune!
https://youtu.be/0C66WR7QMo4
And the PWM frequency at 40 khz is way over our hearing capability.
Read the manual, adjust to suit.
Don't like to disagree with you Rein hard, but those settings can / will improve the buzz - if not make it go away completely.
First, try turning off the Adaptive Frequency Regulation by setting CV124 to 24
Second, try turning off the BEMF altogether - that cures it 100% of the time in my experience - by setting CV49 to 18. You will probably have to increase CV2 when turning off the BEMF to get it to move on speed step 1 again.
I've installed ESU Lokpilot decoders in some non-sound locomotives. Mostly the result is fine, but in a few cases (Stewart Alco 630 & 628, Spectrum 4-8-2 (with capacitors removed), an Atlas Classic C424) I'm surprised by the buzzing noise at very low speed steps (e.g., 1, 2). In other locos the Lokpilot is very quiet. But if I instead plug in an NCE decoder (D13WP, to be specific), the locos in question are quiet, with no growl or buzz at very low speed steps. And if I plug in a Loksound decoder and run it with the sound turned off, the locos also are very quiet with no low speed motor growl. The difference is surprising. I've used DCC for about a year now, and although I'm comfortable doing some basic CV settings, I'm guessing that I'm missing something with regard to the Lokpilot settings that would reduce or eliminate the noise problem. Can anyone give me any advice? Thanks very much.