NCE Powerhouse Pro.
When I bought it the last time the NMRA convention was in KCMO about a decade ago, I chose it because it allowed the easiest 4 digit addressing. Still have it (as do many of the layouts in my area). I use 2 or 3 tethered throttles and 3 or 4 radio throttles. All Cab04p/pr (or 1 Cab06er). Have had great customer service from NCE.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
1-15-01 Went to my LHS (50 miles away) with the intent to purchase a Digitrax system and at that time I was told by LHS owner IIRC there was some trouble with Digitrax customer service, he was not a happy camper. I had my pick of Digitrax or Lenz and maybe two other systems in stock, after some discussion I left with the Lenz system. I have been very happy ever since. The system has been upgraded over the years for better and simpler programing/operations by Deb and Stan Ames. I feel Lenz never marketed (in the USA) their product efficiently or competitive. I feel the Lenz system, to me, is like the Black Sheep of DCC, try finding support or a close fellow MR'er to talk about Lenz. Only once did I see a Lenz vender at a train show in MD. I love the red display (LH90), you can see it from across the room, with the direction bat switch (covered with a piece of heat shrink tubing for non slip), you know which way the Loco. will move by feel. The big round speed knob could have been ringed with rubber, I put a fat rubber band around it (now it's non slip) and can be turned with the light touch of the thumb. I put a small brass round head machine screw in the side of the round knob at the dark indicator line so I know by feel were the indicator line is in relation to speed (think face of a clock). Bottom line, the Lenz system runs trains.
I see some contributers/regulars of MR and one member here use the Lenz system.
I think Tony's Train Exchange is the only Lenz repair/upgrade shop on the east coast.
As usual, I'll be the odd one out in these debates. I'm 100% ESU across the board. I use the ESU EcoS with color touch screen as my base and have three Android based MCII wireless throttles. My engine roster is also 100% ESU Loksound decoders.
I used all the other systems out there and wouldn't trade my set-up for any of them. All my engines and consists are named (e.g. D&H U23B 2303) so they are easy to scroll through and find what I want .... I can even upload a picture of each engine to go with it. The throttle has a very comfortable large knob and two buttons on either side of the throttle that can be configured to do anything I want.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
khierThe command station is essentially a Micro controller, the decoder is a Micro controller. The more I learned about Micro controllers the deeper I got in electronics. I could then discover that they are not as scary as I used to think. There are ICs that virtually do everything you think of.
microcontrollers made DCC small enough and economical. Not only do they combine processing, RAM and EEPROM, but also many of the peripheral circuits needed, such as PWM, ADC and UART.
they are even easier to use with an integrated developement environment, libraries and the convenience of writing code in C, such as with the Arduino and I assume others such as the ESP-32 which provides WIFI.
their power can be multiplied when they are connected using an RS-485 bus, distributing I/O and processing and allowing the combination of different types of processors such as a Raspberry Pi and PC, better suited for certain tasks.
and this is why its becoming even easier for modeler to build their own systems if they feel commercial products are out-of-date, too $$ or don't meet their needs.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Well, you wanted to know what I use and why. And I answered it - the older interfae works perfectly fine, is not complex, and adding touchscreens with all sorts of additional capabilities is just so much unecessary technology and brings features I have no use for. While making the UI MORE complex, not LESS.
The beauty of microcontrollers is using them is much more akin to using old 8 bit computers where it was possible to know ALL the details of multiple processors and program them in simple languages. Unlike the modern processors which are nearly impossible to program in assembly, and I dare anyone to know ALL the instructions in a current Intel CPU. My first 8 bit computer was something I build nearly 40 years ago and I still remember all 91 instructions. Still have the computer, and it still works, too. I also know 8080, Z80, and 6502 assmebly, although I don;t have all those instruction sets memoriezed. It was practical to do so, and you didn;t need memory measured in gigabytes to run what should be simple programs. Look at the Atmels in Arduinos - they actually have a fairly small instruction set so you could theoretically easily program them in assembly - many PIC micros have even smaller instruction sets. Yet those Atmega chips have less memory than many early 8 bit computers - and you can still make them do plenty of useful things. Part of that is because most micros use a Harvard architecture, keeping the program instruction memory and data memory seperate, vs the von Neumann architecture of most CPUs, but still, you can get an awful lot of functionality in a very limited set of resources. Just like we used to do back in the day - that first computer of mine has 265 BYTES, not KB, not MB, of memory yet I could create all sorts of fun programs with it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Crandell,
Wow, that was indeed a comrehensive comment.Mobilman44 (sorry but I do not see your name),
I, too, used to consider electronic evil black magic until I discovered Micro controllers and their potential especially in MRR. The command station is essentially a Micro controller, the decoder is a Micro controller. The more I learned about Micro controllers the deeper I got in electronics. I could then discover that they are not as scary as I used to think. There are ICs that virtually do everything you think of. Walid
I believe there is a point left to be made that certainly applied to me, but also I suspect to a number of others...........
I love trains. I love model trains. My first layout was built in the mid '50s and several have followed. I'm pretty good at wiring a layout - be it DC or DCC, but electronics has always been a challenge.
Getting into DCC was scary, but I made the jump 10 years ago (with help from several of you) and I'm glad I did. I am by no means an expert - or an enthusiast - but I can utilize the system to meet my needs, and meet them well.
I don't give a hoot about getting a new system, and have do desire to play with electronics any more than I must do. I am a model railroader, not an electronics hobbiest.
Somehow, I don't think I'm alone in that regard.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
khier Dear All, To me, most, if not all DCC command stations seem awakeward and outdated. Small monochrome display, lousy combination, tedious input, and above all, terribly expensive.
Dear All,
To me, most, if not all DCC command stations seem awakeward and outdated. Small monochrome display, lousy combination, tedious input, and above all, terribly expensive.
Walid, I think I had the same feeling with my Super Empire Builder years ago. I got used to it, and like tattoos, I just have no need for them, or in the case of DCC, in anything different. You have expressed the sentiment that you do want, or need, or think you need, more out of the user interface than what the older systems offer. I can understand what you mean, that they can be more interesting and even ergonomic with just a little updating. You are probably right.
khier I know digitraxx DSCXXX is somewhere around 250$, but if you look at the ones with TFT display and easier use like ESU Ecos or Viesmann 5300, you are abocve the 600$ level. Needless to mention how much boosters and other accessories would cost.
I know digitraxx DSCXXX is somewhere around 250$, but if you look at the ones with TFT display and easier use like ESU Ecos or Viesmann 5300, you are abocve the 600$ level. Needless to mention how much boosters and other accessories would cost.
I used to think I paid more than my Super Empire Builder was really worth, but I had nothing else on which to compare it. I knew I wanted DCC, and my local hobby guy sold Digitrax, so that is what I opted to purchase. As I said above, it was clunky, not really intuitive...but I persevered because of necessity and now have no need for a different quality of experience. I know you do, and I feel you should have as much fun in your hobby experience as I have in mine. If you like, or need, tattoos, you should act accordingly. I must say that my newish Samsung S7 Edge is a real pleasure...lots of gee whiz about it. But I was happy with my old flip phone just eight years ago. It could make phone calls. Amazing!
khier I am curious to know what do you think of the available command stations, which one you prefer, and which fuctionalities you wish to see.
I am curious to know what do you think of the available command stations, which one you prefer, and which fuctionalities you wish to see.
You know, I can't think of anything more that I would want to see, although if you raised your eyebrow and said, "Be honest...", I would have to say I would like the form factor of the DT400 throttle to be updated. I really could use a larger and brighter OLED display in my dotage. Those buttons could be spread apart a bit more, not much, and maybe could be bigger. I find texting on my S7 Edge to be a pain where the sun don't shine....for the same reason. So, I'll have to concede that you may be on to something in at least that respect. I suspect that new version would be close to $100 or more costly than the current price for a DT400.
khier Personally I went the Roco z21 route because it is user friendly, less expensive to buy and less expensive to extend. It takes minutes to convert older Roco modules to z21 boosters. These modules can be found dirt cheap on Ebay. Regards Walid ...
Personally I went the Roco z21 route because it is user friendly, less expensive to buy and less expensive to extend. It takes minutes to convert older Roco modules to z21 boosters. These modules can be found dirt cheap on Ebay.
Regards
Walid
...
If I were in the market to replace what I have, and what works reasonably well (minus the could-be-improved DT series), I would be very interested in what you have to offer in the way of extending our range of thinking. Who would be averse to spending substantially less and getting something with more functionality?
Thanks for introducing the subject. I still want my toast, hopefully before it cools too much, and my toaster ain't broke. When it breaks, and it will, I will hope to recall your introduction to a new way of thinking about train management.
One last comment, if I won't be patronizing or overstepping: Please don't feel unwelcome here. In any way. I like being challenged, and even proven to be mistaken. It's what extends my range. I am nearing 66, and desperately wish to avoid becoming that typical white male who ages into constrained notions, who stops learning, and whose mind is made up. If I do, somebody gently lead me out behind the shed and shoot me when my eyes are averted.
-Crandell
NCE!!!!! Oh joy oh bliss. No regrets. You can drop it, and it will still love you back. Got my powercab and NCE usb for under $200. Granted, you will have to do some creative price hunting and may have to buy used, but I bought my NCE Powercab used and it works just fine. With these two jmri, you are practically set for life unless you need more amps. Anyway, I have heard that MRC is terrible. I think the same holds for most of their stuff. Every time I mention MRC dcc to a club member, they pretend gag or tell me to never mention it again. Do not recommend.
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
started with a MRC prodigy system, upgraded to an advance hand held contoller and had the driver box apart and upgraded slighly for more current ..
good enough for me :)
rrinker If you did not want to debate the items you raised, then why even start the thread in the first place? --Randy
If you did not want to debate the items you raised, then why even start the thread in the first place?
I wanted to hear what others think, not to impose a certain view on others, nor to prove my point is right and the rest of the world is wrong. In other words, I wanted to hear not to argue.
khierI am curious to know what do you think of the available command stations, which one you prefer, and which fuctionalities you wish to see.
it's more than just a question about less than modern technology, it's also economics and the available market. Any new, more modern system today needs to compete with existing products -- it would need to be significantly better but at about the same price. you said it yourself
khierbut if you look at the ones with TFT display and easier use like ESU Ecos or Viesmann 5300, you are abocve the 600$ level.
many existing modelers rewired and replaced their DC systems with DCC because DCC allowed them to operate trains in a way that you can't with DC and much simpler, justifying the time , effort and replacement cost. There's not a big market for modeler to replace there existing DCC system with one that is more modern but does about the same thing.
DCC is not well suited for accessory (e.g. turnout) control. See LCC, the modern technology for non-locomotive control. Many modelers, like Randy, build there own for block occupancy, turnout position monitoring, and turnout and signal control
Randy,
I can reply to each and every point you mentioned. I said several times, however, that it is not my intention to change anyone's opinion. Likwise, your arguments will change mine either. Therefore, I will not pursue this debate. Why is it so difficult for you to do the same?
It's technology for technology's sake. It's not EASIER to make phone calls on my smartphone compared to an old flip phone. But sure, the smartphone does a lot more stuff the flip phone couldn't do. That is an almost exact analogy for a touchscreen throttle vs a traditional type. Think about it. On the old phone, you punched in someone's phone number and hit Send. Call placed. On a modern smartphone, you hit the phone app, then either select your directory or the keypad, and either select the number from the address book or key in the number. That's EXACTLY the difference between most traditional DCC throttles and a touch screen one.
CAN you do more with the touchscreen? Yes. The real question is, do you NEED it to do more? Except for ONE throttle to program locos, the honest answer to that is almost always no.
As for costs, it comes down to volume. There are probably more iPhones sold each month than DCC systems in 10 years. That any of it is affordable at all is due to advances in consumer electronics, but the volume just isn't there to make it for $50. You mention seeing all the code for DCC on the internet, and how quickly a programmer should be able to adapt it to a specific device. Ask folks who developed that like Alex Shepherd just how logn it took them to get it to the poitn where it's at now. It's a LOT more than just a few hour's work. ANd it is given away for free, so it was a lot of unpaid work, for love of the hobby and the challenge of developing the code.
And prices have come down - you can get sound decoders now for what a (rather poor) motor decoder cost back in the early days of DCC. And the sound decoder is smaller. It require significant uptake to get volumes to where costs per unit fall, just liek any other manufacturing business. ANd uptake on touch screen control without knobs is very low. The new ESU Cab Control has a chance, because it combines the touch screen with an actual knob. It's expensive - in aprt because liek so many German things, it's IMO way overengineered. That 'simple' knob on there is MOTORIZED so it can adjust and match speed when selecting between multiple running locos. All because it's a potentiometer. Simplest solution: use a rotary encoder instead. Next simplest (but not so satisfactory) - the newly selected train will change speed to match the knobb. Slightly more complex solution: the throttle blinks until you adjust the knob to closely match the speed of the train you are taking over. German solution: add a motor, gearbox, overrunnign clutches so the gears don't just shear off, etc. to automatically turn the knob to the correct position. ANd I drive a German car, which has plenty of similar overly complex ways to handle otherwise simple tasks. But adding all that stuff adds cost, so no wonder it is expensive. It's impressive when you see it work, but at the same time - is it really necessary?
Think about this objectively. Not "ooooh, shiny" A good (ad) example on UI is Microsoft. They claim to have done thousands of hours of real user testing. And yet the product is nearly unusable from a UI standpoint when first released, every update tweaks the UI to make it easier to use. Yet it was all just change for change's sake, because people were 'bored' with the old way, which was as familiar as a favorite sweater. Or so they told us. Remember back in the 50's, cars changed EVERY year. They don't do that any more - because the automakers realized coming up with all new designs every year was a losing proposition. So now that mentality has moved on to other aspects of consumer life - most obvious perhaps in the smartphone market. Constant change - not to improve things, but to make people want to keep buying new product.
I'll move discussion of the layout control to another thread because this one is surely to be locked soon. But even there - no need to invent your own protocol, or use somethign infinitely more complex than the task requires. RS485 may be old, but it's still used BECAUSE it works, and works well in noisy industrial environments. WHy run a protocol on top of that interface that is designed to carry hundreds of message types when you need 2, or maybe 3? There's a time and a place to roll your own bits but there's also a time and a place to just use or adapt something existing instead of building from the ground up. That's just efficient and effective engineering design.
I have the NCE PH Pro system. I’m not a tech guy ant it was easy to set up, easy to use and very reliable. A few months ago I added JMRI and now programming wise, I can do most anything.
Running trains is really simple and with up to 5 (maybe 6??) Recalls, as a single operator thats more than I’ll ever need.
Pressing a function key is as simple as pressing a touch screen and its much harder to unintentionally make a wrong selection.
Unless some magnificent improvement that completely obsoletes this comes out and its much more economical, I’m quite content with what I have.
Just my opinion.
Gary
rrinker The thing is, I'm not "scrollign through things with arrow keys" or constantly clickign next screen things with Digitrax. But that's EXACTLY what you do on.....
The thing is, I'm not "scrollign through things with arrow keys" or constantly clickign next screen things with Digitrax. But that's EXACTLY what you do on.....
Here we go again.
The thing is, I'm not "scrollign through things with arrow keys" or constantly clickign next screen things with Digitrax. But that's EXACTLY what you do on a touch screen system - scroll through an endless list of options to pick one. I just key in the loco number, and turn the knob to drive my train. Click the same knob to change direction. I fail to see how all the whiz-bang touch screen stuff makes that task any easier. I can either scroll through a huge list on a touch screen, or just punch in the numbers directly like I do with my TV remote. I'd hate to have to select a TV channel by scrolling through a list of them as my only option.
Dave, No problem. I indeed meant what you highlighted, but never imagined it can be regarded as an introduction to what followed. Perhaps I whould be more careful next time in praising/criticism.
This looks like the chevy vs Ford debate all over again.
I have used an NCE Powercab for about a year now and my only complaint in the beginning was the exposed PCP but now that is mounted I have no reason to complain.
Joe Staten Island West
"To me, most, if not all DCC command stations seem awakeward and outdated. Small monochrome display, lousy combination, tedious input, and above all, terribly expensive. "
That is where I saw the lead in to an infomercial. Please forgive me if I was wrong.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet I could be wrong, but this, along with your strong support of your system, looks like a commercial disguised as a debate
I could be wrong, but this, along with your strong support of your system, looks like a commercial disguised as a debate
Rich,
At the begining I stated my opinion to see if others share the same. I had two points: We have outdated systems that can be much easier and much more comfortable to use. The second: DCC equipments are overpriced. I was surprised to read how rediciluous it is to think about these silly graphical tools, and how useless anything but the 8 segment and ancient LCD display, old cell phones work even better than new ones, why should I ever think we need something different than what we have, how great the available equipment are, and how anything different is certainly nonsense, and how superficial these gadgets are since the objective is to "run trains not to launch satellites". Despite this "tone" in the replies, I stated clearly that hobby is about fun, and it is purely personal, where there is neither right nor wrong. And hence, I stopped the debate (which I did not want to have originaly) and read only what others think. However, the replies continued in the "VS" and "right and wrong" directions. Therefore, I had to re-state what I said at the beginning, and respond to the arguments with mine. Regards
khier Dear All, To me, most, if not all DCC command stations seem awakeward and outdated. Small monochrome display, lousy combination, tedious input, and above all, terribly expensive. I know digitraxx DSCXXX is somewhere around 250$, but if you look at the ones with TFT display and easier use like ESU Ecos or Viesmann 5300, you are abocve the 600$ level. Needless to mention how much boosters and other accessories would cost. I am curious to know what do you think of the available command stations, which one you prefer, and which fuctionalities you wish to see. Personally I went the Roco z21 route because it is user friendly, less expensive to buy and less expensive to extend. It takes minutes to convert older Roco modules to z21 boosters. These modules can be found dirt cheap on Ebay. Regards Walid PS. To the moderator, move to another forum if the subject is not appropriate.
To me, most, if not all DCC command stations seem awakeward and outdated. Small monochrome display, lousy combination, tedious input, and above all, terribly expensive. I know digitraxx DSCXXX is somewhere around 250$, but if you look at the ones with TFT display and easier use like ESU Ecos or Viesmann 5300, you are abocve the 600$ level. Needless to mention how much boosters and other accessories would cost.
I am curious to know what do you think of the available command stations, which one you prefer, and which fuctionalities you wish to see. Personally I went the Roco z21 route because it is user friendly, less expensive to buy and less expensive to extend. It takes minutes to convert older Roco modules to z21 boosters. These modules can be found dirt cheap on Ebay.
PS. To the moderator, move to another forum if the subject is not appropriate.
I could be wrong, but this, along with your strong support of your system, looks like a commercial disguised as a debate.
That said, I use Digitrax. It does everything I can imagine needing, it does not make anything obsolete when it upgrades, and is not difficult to use.
I understand that there are several good systems and each has people who chose that system after looking them all over or experiencing them on another layout.
Walid, then what was the point of starting the thread in the first place if you really didn't want to hear what other systems are preferred? After all, that was your initial question.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain khier Well, I disagree with all your comments, Gentlemen, and I really prefer modern, user friendly, equipment than LCD and push-bottom technology of the 20th century. But this is a matter of personal taste where there is neither right nor wrong. Hence, for me, the debate stops here. Let's not overlook the fact that you started the debate by starting the thread. That said, I use the NCE 5 amp wireless PH-Pro. I have used it for 14 years, and it provides problem free service to satisfy all of my needs
khier Well, I disagree with all your comments, Gentlemen, and I really prefer modern, user friendly, equipment than LCD and push-bottom technology of the 20th century. But this is a matter of personal taste where there is neither right nor wrong. Hence, for me, the debate stops here.
Well, I disagree with all your comments, Gentlemen, and I really prefer modern, user friendly, equipment than LCD and push-bottom technology of the 20th century. But this is a matter of personal taste where there is neither right nor wrong. Hence, for me, the debate stops here.
Let's not overlook the fact that you started the debate by starting the thread.
That said, I use the NCE 5 amp wireless PH-Pro. I have used it for 14 years, and it provides problem free service to satisfy all of my needs
However, I think we deserve something that belongs to the century we live in, not an LCD screen from the eighties, especially when it does not really cost much to match to be up to date. A Viesmann or an ESU command station costs almost the same as a brand new IPhone, although it consists of a 2$ Microcontroller, a 20C motor driver, and a 30 years-old software (yeah it has been extended over the years, I know). Give it to a professional programmer and you will have that program that you pay 650$ for done in two days, checked and tested in a week (I know because I read several DCC software over the net).As I said before, it is a matter of personal liking. Hence, it is pointless to try to bring the point further. It is exactly like trying to convince a Burger King fan to enjoy a Big Mac. Therefore, I stopped the discussion until you decided to re-start it again.RegardsWalid
When this thread opened, it was obviously a "my way or the highway" endeavor to start one of our infamous "versus" threads. I have a Digitrax set up, and it has worked great for me these last 10 years. That said, I could just as easily have gotten an NCE set up and I'm sure the results would be the same - both get the job done well.
We all have our preferences and bias and there is nothing wrong with that. But don't tell me mine are "wrong", and I will refrain from doing that to you.
That said, I use the NCE 5 amp wireless PH-Pro. I have used it for 14 years, and it provides problem free service to satisfy all of my needs. As others have stated, the only thing you want from a command station is the ability to run trains, not launch space satellites.
rrinker My control system I have shamelessly borrowed from the cpNode by .....
My control system I have shamelessly borrowed from the cpNode by .....
I plan to have an Atmega as a master, Attiny as the receiver, 9g servos as actuators, and simple SPDT switches on the control panel. Each switch also controls two Bi-color LEDs to indicate the status of the turnout or signal on the control panel. By this way, I need only a 3 wire bus, one for +, the other for -, and the third carry the signal.
Pro: Digital control and actuation that cost pennies, and the DIY fun factor of course.
Cons: Custom made, 100% autistic, meaning zero upgrade or communication with the outer world, but who needs that?
kasskabooseI like NCE corporation's starter system. It really is one of the easiest things I've used in MR.
I agree!
I'm an admitted dinosaur when it comes to electronic devices, and I am all thumbs too. The NCE Power Cab works great, is easy to understand, and is inexpensive. As others have said, I want to watch my trains run. Having to look away is annoying.
The club uses Digitrax and AFAIC it is vastly inferior from an ease of use perspective.
However, each to his own.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!