Which DCC command station do you use?

[joe323]

This looks like the chevy vs Ford debate all over again.  

I have used an NCE Powercab for about a year now and my only complaint in the beginning was the exposed PCP but now that is mounted I have no reason to complain.  

 

 

[khier]

Dave,

No problem. I indeed meant what you highlighted, but never imagined it can be regarded as an introduction to what followed. Perhaps I whould be more careful next time in praising/criticism.

Regards

Walid

[rrinker]

 The thing is, I'm not "scrollign through things with arrow keys" or constantly clickign next screen things with Digitrax. But that's EXACTLY what you do on a touch screen system - scroll through an endless list of options to pick one. I just key in the loco number, and turn the knob to drive my train. Click the same knob to change direction. I fail to see how all the whiz-bang touch screen stuff makes that task any easier. I can either scroll through a huge list on a touch screen, or just punch in the numbers directly like I do with my TV remote. I'd hate to have to select a TV channel by scrolling through a list of them as my only option.

                                           --Randy

 

[khier]

rrinker

 The thing is, I'm not "scrollign through things with arrow keys" or constantly clickign next screen things with Digitrax. But that's EXACTLY what you do on.....

Here we go again.

 

Walid

[gdelmoro]

I have the NCE PH Pro system. I’m not a tech guy ant it was easy to set up, easy to use and very reliable. A few months ago I added JMRI and now programming wise, I can do most anything.

Running trains is really simple and with up to 5 (maybe 6??) Recalls, as a single operator thats more than I’ll ever need.

Pressing a function key is as simple as pressing a touch screen and its much harder to unintentionally make a wrong selection.  

Unless some magnificent improvement that completely obsoletes this comes out and its much more economical, I’m quite content with what I have.

Just my opinion.

[rrinker]

It's technology for technology's sake. It's not EASIER to make phone calls on my smartphone compared to an old flip phone. But sure, the smartphone does a lot more stuff the flip phone couldn't do. That is an almost exact analogy for a touchscreen throttle vs a traditional type. Think about it. On the old phone, you punched in someone's phone number and hit Send. Call placed. On a modern smartphone, you hit the phone app, then either select your directory or the keypad, and either select the number from the address book or key in the number. That's EXACTLY the difference between most traditional DCC throttles and a touch screen one.

 CAN you do more with the touchscreen? Yes. The real question is, do you NEED it to do more? Except for ONE throttle to program locos, the honest answer to that is almost always no.

 As for costs, it comes down to volume. There are probably more iPhones sold each month than DCC systems in 10 years. That any of it is affordable at all is due to advances in consumer electronics, but the volume just isn't there to make it for $50.  You mention seeing all the code for DCC on the internet, and how quickly a programmer should be able to adapt it to a specific device. Ask folks who developed that like Alex Shepherd just how logn it took them to get it to the poitn where it's at now. It's a LOT more than just a few hour's work. ANd it is given away for free, so it was a lot of unpaid work, for love of the hobby and the challenge of developing the code. 

 And prices have come down - you can get sound decoders now for what a (rather poor) motor decoder cost back in the early days of DCC. And the sound decoder is smaller. It require significant uptake to get volumes to where costs per unit fall, just liek any other manufacturing business. ANd uptake on touch screen control without knobs is very low. The new ESU Cab Control has a chance, because it combines the touch screen with an actual knob. It's expensive - in aprt because liek so many German things, it's IMO way overengineered. That 'simple' knob on there is MOTORIZED so it can adjust and match speed when selecting between multiple running locos. All because it's a potentiometer. Simplest solution: use a rotary encoder instead. Next simplest (but not so satisfactory) - the newly selected train will change speed to match the knobb. Slightly more complex solution: the throttle blinks until you adjust the knob to closely match the speed of the train you are taking over. German solution: add a motor, gearbox, overrunnign clutches so the gears don't just shear off, etc. to automatically turn the knob to the correct position. ANd I drive a German car, which has plenty of similar overly complex ways to handle otherwise simple tasks. But adding all that stuff adds cost, so no wonder it is expensive. It's impressive when you see it work, but at the same time - is it really necessary?

 Think about this objectively. Not "ooooh, shiny" A good (ad) example on UI is Microsoft. They claim to have done thousands of hours of real user testing. And yet the product is nearly unusable from a UI standpoint when first released, every update tweaks the UI to make it easier to use. Yet it was all just change for change's sake, because people were 'bored' with the old way, which was as familiar as a favorite sweater. Or so they told us. Remember back in the 50's, cars changed EVERY year. They don't do that any more - because the automakers realized coming up with all new designs every year was a losing proposition. So now that mentality has moved on to other aspects of consumer life - most obvious perhaps in the smartphone market. Constant change - not to improve things, but to make people want to keep buying new product.

I'll move discussion of the layout control to another thread because this one is surely to be locked soon. But even there - no need to invent your own protocol, or use somethign infinitely more complex than the task requires. RS485 may be old, but it's still used BECAUSE it works, and works well in noisy industrial environments. WHy run a protocol on top of that interface that is designed to carry hundreds of message types when you need 2, or maybe 3? There's a time and a place to roll your own bits but there's also a time and a place to just use or adapt something existing instead of building from the ground up. That's just efficient and effective engineering design. 

                                      --Randy

[khier]

Randy,

I can reply to each and every point you mentioned. I said several times, however, that  it is not my intention to change anyone's opinion. Likwise, your arguments will change mine either. Therefore, I will not pursue this debate. Why is it so difficult for you to do the same?

Regards

Walid

[rrinker]

 If you did not want to debate the items you raised, then why even start the thread in the first place?

                                    --Randy

 

[gregc]

khier

I am curious to know what do you think of the available command stations, which one you prefer, and which fuctionalities you wish to see.

it's more than just a question about less than modern technology, it's also economics and the available market.   Any new, more modern system today needs to compete with existing products -- it would need to be significantly better but at about the same price.   you said it yourself

khier

but if you look at the ones with TFT display and easier use like ESU  Ecos or Viesmann 5300, you are abocve the 600$ level.

 

 

many existing modelers rewired and replaced their DC systems with DCC because DCC allowed them to operate trains in a way that you can't with DC and much simpler, justifying the time , effort and replacement cost.   There's not a big market for modeler to replace there existing DCC system with one that is more modern but does about the same thing.

 

DCC is not well suited for accessory (e.g. turnout) control.   See LCC, the modern technology for non-locomotive control.   Many modelers, like Randy, build there own for block occupancy, turnout position monitoring, and turnout and signal control

 

[khier]

rrinker

 If you did not want to debate the items you raised, then why even start the thread in the first place?

                                    --Randy

 

I wanted to hear what others think, not to impose a certain view on others, nor to prove my point is right and the rest of the world is wrong. In other words, I wanted to hear not to argue.

Walid

[wvg_ca]

started with a MRC prodigy system, upgraded to an advance hand held contoller and had the driver box apart and upgraded slighly for more current ..

good enough for me :)

[BNSF UP and others modeler]

NCE!!!!! Oh joy oh bliss. No regrets. You can drop it, and it will still love you back. Got my powercab and NCE usb for under $200. Granted, you will have to do some creative price hunting and may have to buy used, but I bought my NCE Powercab used and it works just fine. With these two jmri, you are practically set for life unless you need more amps. Anyway, I have heard that MRC is terrible. I think the same holds for most of their stuff. Every time I mention MRC dcc to a club member, they pretend gag or tell me to never mention it again. Do not recommend.

[selector]

khier

Dear All,

To me, most, if not all DCC command stations seem awakeward and outdated. Small monochrome display, lousy combination, tedious input, and above all, terribly expensive.

Walid, I think I had the same feeling with my Super Empire Builder years ago.  I got used to it, and like tattoos, I just have no need for them, or in the case of DCC, in anything different.  You have expressed the sentiment that you do want, or need, or think you need, more out of the user interface than what the older systems offer.  I can understand what you mean, that they can be more interesting and even ergonomic with just a little updating.  You are probably right.

khier

I know digitraxx DSCXXX is somewhere around 250$, but if you look at the ones with TFT display and easier use like ESU  Ecos or Viesmann 5300, you are abocve the 600$ level. Needless to mention how much  boosters and other accessories would cost.

 

I used to think I paid more than my Super Empire Builder was really worth, but I had nothing else on which to compare it.  I knew I wanted DCC, and my local hobby guy sold Digitrax, so that is what I opted to purchase.  As I said above, it was clunky, not really intuitive...but I persevered because of necessity and now have no need for a different quality of experience.  I know you do, and I feel you should have as much fun in your hobby experience as I have in mine.  If you like, or need, tattoos, you should act accordingly.  I must say that my newish Samsung S7 Edge is a real pleasure...lots of gee whiz about it.  But I was happy with my old flip phone just eight years ago.  It could make phone calls.  Amazing!

khier

I am curious to know what do you think of the available command stations, which one you prefer, and which fuctionalities you wish to see.

You know, I can't think of anything more that I would want to see, although if you raised your eyebrow and said, "Be honest...", I would have to say I would like the form factor of the DT400 throttle to be updated.  I really could use a larger and brighter OLED display in my dotage.  Those buttons could be spread apart a bit more, not much, and maybe could be bigger.  I find texting on my S7 Edge to be a pain where the sun don't shine....for the same reason.  So, I'll have to concede that you may be on to something in at least that respect. I suspect that new version would be close to $100 or more costly than the current price for a DT400.

khier

Personally I went the Roco z21 route because it is user friendly, less expensive to buy and less expensive to extend. It takes minutes to convert older Roco modules to z21 boosters. These modules can be found dirt cheap on Ebay.

 

Regards

 

Walid

 

...

 

 

If I were in the market to replace what I have, and what works reasonably well (minus the could-be-improved DT series), I would be very interested in what you have to offer in the way of extending our range of thinking.  Who would be averse to spending substantially less and getting something with more functionality? 

Thanks for introducing the subject.  I still want my toast, hopefully before it cools too much, and my toaster ain't broke.  When it breaks, and it will, I will hope to recall your introduction to a new way of thinking about train management.

One last comment, if I won't be patronizing or overstepping:  Please don't feel unwelcome here.  In any way.  I like being challenged, and even proven to be mistaken.  It's what extends my range.  I am nearing 66, and desperately wish to avoid becoming that typical white male who ages into constrained notions, who stops learning, and whose mind is made up.  If I do, somebody gently lead me out behind the shed and shoot me when my eyes are averted.

-Crandell

[mobilman44]

I believe there is a point left to be made that certainly applied to me, but also I suspect to a number of others...........

I love trains.  I love model trains.  My first layout was built in the mid '50s and several have followed.  I'm pretty good at wiring a layout - be it DC or DCC, but electronics has always been a challenge.

Getting into DCC was scary, but I made the jump 10 years ago (with help from several of you) and I'm glad I did.  I am by no means an expert - or an enthusiast - but I can utilize the system to meet my needs, and meet them well.

I don't give a hoot about getting a new system, and have do desire to play with electronics any more than I must do.   I am a model railroader, not an electronics hobbiest.

Somehow, I don't think I'm alone in that regard.

 

 

[khier]

Crandell,

 

Wow, that was indeed a comrehensive comment.

Mobilman44 (sorry but I do not see your name),

I, too, used to consider electronic evil black magic until I discovered Micro controllers and their potential especially in MRR. The command station is essentially a Micro controller, the decoder is a Micro controller. The more I learned about Micro controllers  the deeper I got in electronics. I could then discover that they are not as scary as I used to think. There are ICs that virtually do everything you think of. 


Walid    

[rrinker]

 Well, you wanted to know what I use and why. And I answered it - the older interfae works perfectly fine, is not complex, and adding touchscreens with all sorts of additional capabilities is just so much unecessary technology and brings features I have no use for. While making the UI MORE complex, not LESS.

 The beauty of microcontrollers is using them is much more akin to using old 8 bit computers where it was possible to know ALL the details of multiple processors and program them in simple languages. Unlike the modern processors which are nearly impossible to program in assembly, and I dare anyone to know ALL the instructions in a current Intel CPU. My first 8 bit computer was something I build nearly 40 years ago and I still remember all 91 instructions. Still have the computer, and it still works, too. I also know 8080, Z80, and 6502 assmebly, although I don;t have all those instruction sets memoriezed. It was practical to do so, and you didn;t need memory measured in gigabytes to run what should be simple programs. Look at the Atmels in Arduinos - they actually have a fairly small instruction set so you could theoretically easily program them in assembly - many PIC micros have even smaller instruction sets. Yet those Atmega chips have less memory than many early 8 bit computers - and you can still make them do plenty of useful things. Part of that is because most micros use a Harvard architecture, keeping the program instruction memory and data memory seperate, vs the von Neumann architecture of most CPUs, but still, you can get an awful lot of functionality in a very limited set of resources. Just like we used to do back in the day - that first computer of mine has 265 BYTES, not KB, not MB, of memory yet I could create all sorts of fun programs with it.

                                      --Randy

[gregc]

khier

The command station is essentially a Micro controller, the decoder is a Micro controller. The more I learned about Micro controllers  the deeper I got in electronics. I could then discover that they are not as scary as I used to think. There are ICs that virtually do everything you think of. 

microcontrollers made DCC small enough and economical.   Not only do they combine processing, RAM and EEPROM, but also many of the peripheral circuits needed, such as PWM, ADC and UART.

they are even easier to use with an integrated developement environment, libraries and the convenience of writing code in C, such as with the Arduino and I assume others such as the ESP-32 which provides WIFI.

their power can be multiplied when they are connected using an RS-485 bus, distributing I/O and processing and allowing the combination of different types of processors such as a Raspberry Pi and PC, better suited for certain tasks.

and this is why its becoming even easier for modeler to build their own systems if they feel commercial products are out-of-date, too $$ or don't meet their needs.

[Mark R.]

As usual, I'll be the odd one out in these debates. I'm 100% ESU across the board. I use the ESU EcoS with color touch screen as my base and have three Android based MCII wireless throttles. My engine roster is also 100% ESU Loksound decoders.

I used all the other systems out there and wouldn't trade my set-up for any of them. All my engines and consists are named (e.g. D&H U23B 2303) so they are easy to scroll through and find what I want .... I can even upload a picture of each engine to go with it. The throttle has a very comfortable large knob and two buttons on either side of the throttle that can be configured to do anything I want.

Mark. 

[PC101]

1-15-01 Went to my LHS (50 miles away) with the intent to purchase a Digitrax system and at that time I was told by LHS owner IIRC there was some trouble with Digitrax customer service, he was not a happy camper. I had my pick of Digitrax or Lenz and maybe two other systems in stock, after some discussion I left with the Lenz system. I have been very happy ever since. The system has been upgraded over the years for better and simpler programing/operations by Deb and Stan Ames. I feel Lenz never marketed (in the USA) their  product efficiently or competitive. I feel the Lenz system, to me, is like the Black Sheep of DCC, try finding support or a close fellow MR'er to talk about Lenz. Only once did I see a Lenz vender at a train show in MD. I love the red display (LH90), you can see it from across the room, with the direction bat switch (covered with a piece of heat shrink tubing for non slip), you know which way the Loco. will move by feel. The big round speed knob could have been ringed with rubber, I put a fat rubber band around it (now it's non slip) and can be turned with the light touch of the thumb. I put a small brass round head machine screw in the side of the round knob at the dark indicator line so I know by feel were the indicator line is in relation to speed (think face of a clock). Bottom line, the Lenz system runs trains.

I see some contributers/regulars of MR and one member here use the Lenz system.

I think Tony's Train Exchange is the only Lenz repair/upgrade shop on the east coast.     

[dehusman]

NCE Powerhouse Pro.

When I bought it the last time the NMRA convention was in KCMO about a decade ago, I chose it because it allowed the easiest 4 digit addressing.  Still have it (as do many of the layouts in my area).  I use 2 or 3 tethered throttles and 3 or 4 radio throttles.  All Cab04p/pr (or 1 Cab06er).  Have had great customer service from NCE.

[fmilhaupt]

I'm still using my nearly twenty year-old Digitrax DCS-100. Over the years, I've updated my throttles, fast clocks and even a couple of boosters as improved ones, or ones that better meet my needs have become available, and the DCS-100 continues to support them just fine.

If I were to need to start completely over, the ESU Cab Control system has some very nice technical merits to its architecture, but the deal-killer for me is the cost of the throttles, given the number that I would need. I don't feel that a visual display would enhance my crews' experience enough to be worth the price.

 

[Paul Schulze]

I have a Digitrax Zephyr  DCS50 with two jump power supplies. I Bought them back in 19 whenever and they still work fine.

[RR_Mel]

I’m using my 12 year old Prodigy Advance² controller with 12 decoders that I move around between my 50 or so locomotives and very happy with it.  I run trains not the controller, simple knob for speed and a couple of buttons for direction, lights and horn.

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[MisterBeasley]

RR_Mel

I run trains not the controller, simple knob for speed and a couple of buttons for direction, lights and horn.

To me, that's the whole purpose of DCC and it's why I love it.

When I got back into the hobby 14 years ago, I realized many of the things I'd been missing.  I had become more of a servant to my computers, both the ones at home and the ones at work.  I did Flight Simulator and Train Simulator.  Like with my layout, I built an elaborate Flight Sim world, adding scenery and aircraft to my digital world.  I loved it, but when I went back to trains, some of the first things I needed to do involved my subway systems and scratchbuilding with styrene and hydrocal.  I got plaster and paint all over my hands.  I reveled in the processes of building something physical.  At the same time, I was running the trains on DCC, again something physical, not just images on a screen.

Between computers and trains we have a continuum of activities.  I personally prefer to keep them separate, the digital stuff on one side and the physical stuff on the other.  Yes, there is overlap, but I'd rather keep them as far apart as possible.

[Anonymous]

I currently have a NCE DCC PH-Pro 5amp system for the layout and the Power-CAB 2amp system for programming at the workbench.  Why?  Its what my club used.  Its easy to use.  Programming 4 digit addresses is only requires entering the menu, then inputing the 4 digit address of my choice (you dont need a CV calculator or ever need to touch CV 17/18)

Ive really only touched CV29 to shut off DC operation.   Other CVs Ive touched only by following the exact instructions in the decoders included instruction sheet on some TCS decoders.

Speaking of,

Their sound menu programming is great.  Obliviates in most cases the need to ever program a CV. 

At the risk of sounding like an infomercial for TCS (no, I dont work for them):

Im buying this when its released to replace all of the above:

http://tcsdcc.com/commandstation

http://tcsdcc.com/throttle

http://tcsdcc.com/mini-throttle

Because that throttle was the most comfortable model train throttle I have ever held.  Also because of Layout Command Control.

[Graffen]

Ahh, yes. The DCC system debate...

My opinion is that the DCC manufacturers are now trying to make the user interface as user friendly as possible.

That's why you see a lot of touch screen devices. They make the whole thing much easier for the user (if made right).

Example:

I use the ROCO z21 DCC system. It is a self sustained system with its own app and router for the mobile devices.

It also has Xbus connections for Lenz and ROCO hand controls.

When I want to connect it to my computer, I just plug in a LAN cable, and it's ready to connect to JMRI so I can program my decoders.

With the new sound decoders with 28 functions, I don't need to remap them, I just assign each function to a button in the app.

No need for a computer engineering degree anymore to use a high end DCC system.

I understand that many users of 20 year old systems like them. But surely you must acknowledge that the user interface of them isn't top notch.

 

[MisterBeasley]

PC101

Bottom line, the Lenz system runs trains.

For me, that's the bottom line.  My Lenz System 100 has been running trains for over a dozen years now.

When I was looking to buy, I saw that Lenz was a 5-amp system right out of the box.  The "stack" is a whopping 32 locomotives, large enough for my entire roster and then some, plus consists.

The thing that got me, though, is the great big buttons on the throttle.  It is not like trying to make calls or do texts on a cell phone.  I love that throttle just for the buttons.  I can see the buttons and identify them with my old eyes, and I can press the one I want every time with my large fingers.  That's why, when a thread comes on about "Which DCC system should I buy,"  my answer is to try them all out and pick the throttle you like best, because that's going to be your interface to your trains.

[BATMAN]

Forward and reverse, speed control, horn, bell, coupling and uncoupling sounds, air down, getting a verbal speed report and some accessory control I can do by feel alone. I really like the fact I don't need to look at a screen or the controller to do these functions. Is it possible to do these on a screen without looking at it?

[khier]

How on earth did so many come to the idea I specifically mean touch screens when I talked about better interface? It may have touch screen, it may not be, but certainly an interface where I can read clearly "ADDRESS" not "Adr."   or "Add" on a monochrome LCD screen. Where I can read clearly speed information not a dual seven-segment display. Where I can see acknowledge of  my commands not a LED flashing twice. 

Walid  

[joe323]

gregc

 

 

khier

I am curious to know what do you think of the available command stations, which one you prefer, and which fuctionalities you wish to see.

 

 

it's more than just a question about less than modern technology, it's also economics and the available market.   Any new, more modern system today needs to compete with existing products -- it would need to be significantly better but at about the same price.   you said it yourself

 

 

khier

but if you look at the ones with TFT display and easier use like ESU  Ecos or Viesmann 5300, you are abocve the 600$ level.

 

 

 

 

many existing modelers rewired and replaced their DC systems with DCC because DCC allowed them to operate trains in a way that you can't with DC and much simpler, justifying the time , effort and replacement cost.   There's not a big market for modeler to replace there existing DCC system with one that is more modern but does about the same thing.

 

DCC is not well suited for accessory (e.g. turnout) control.   See LCC, the modern technology for non-locomotive control.   Many modelers, like Randy, build there own for block occupancy, turnout position monitoring, and turnout and signal control

 

 

Have to agree about turnout control thats why I have used DC and/or ground throws on all the layouts I have built.