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Question on Bus

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  • Member since
    August 2013
  • From: Richmond, VA
  • 1,890 posts
Posted by carl425 on Wednesday, April 4, 2018 10:28 AM

rrinker
some will specify solid or stranded wire

If you look at the 3M datasheet,

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/68690O/3m-scotchlok-insulation-displacement-connectors-br.pdf

you'll see that none of the suitcase style that are normally used in model railroad applications have this listed in the specifications.  Some are specifically listed as "solid/stranded", some don't have anything listed for wire type.  Interestingly some list a larger size as supported when stranded.

At the bottom of the page, there are some of the type I've seen in telephone applications that are for solid only.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

  • Member since
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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, April 4, 2018 7:23 AM

 You can go a lot smaller than 18 for feeders. 20 and 22 work well for HO. 22-24 for N. Most of us have used smaller than 18 for feeder wires. 

 If using IDCs (I hate the things, nothing beats a solid soldered connection), see what they are rated for - some will specify solid or stranded wire - they can not be intechanged and also be reliable. Ones meant for stranded will not connect properly to solid, and vice-versa. The blade part that contacts the wire when crimped on is different. Probably the reason the cheap no-name knockoffs fail is they try to be 'universal'. 3M has specifications for each of the various items in the product line. Adhere to them.

                               --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    June 2009
  • From: Dallas, TX
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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, April 4, 2018 2:47 AM

rrinker
With the proper stripping tool (such as the Ideal Stripmaster), solid or stranded is equally easy to strip, at the ends or in the middle for soldering feeders (I use the same tool I use for layout wiring when replacing electrical outlets around the house). Stranded wire, even at #124, is way easier to string along through the benchwork compared to solid. I use solid for feeders because it is easier to poke down through holes and because it is easier to bend it up againsd the base of the rail so it stays all but hidden. Bend solid wire too much and it snaps off.                                    --Randy

Yeah I read about solid vs stranded debate elsewhere.   Majority recommends a smaller gauge for the short run feeder wires and solid wire because it is easier to solder and has a smaller solder profile.    I think they said you can go as low as 18 gauge for the feeder wires because they should only be a few inches long.

I have prebuilt wiring guides underneath the benchwork.    The consulting company that did the benchwork did an excellent job there as well was with the fascia, and rounding all the corners so I could get max use of min 22 inch curves, they did an awesome job there.    They also made the underside tortoise switch machine friendly but highly suggested I go with the remote or side mount brackets vs vertical.     They said vertical hangs down too much in their professional opinion and it would hang below the fascia if it mounted it close to the front edge.

At any rate Home Depot has a pretty cool wiring staple gun that wraps the metal staple in plastic that comes in contact with the wiring to prevent chafing......which I thought was a neat invention.     In their electronics section.    I found a wire stripper at Home Depot that was fairly cheap that did all the small guage wires.....I forget the brand.    So I should be set once I get the plastic T-Connectors.    I just did not want to solder the T connections and use the paint on electrical tape.    I know that is just as good but I think it looks more professional with the plastic connectors.

Also, bought a Dremel Moto-tool from Micro-Mark as I am more accustomed to using that and the emory cutting wheel for track cutting than the snipping tool.   The Dremel emory cutting wheel does not leave rough edges, it's a cleaner cut and is faster.    Danger with using it though from past experience is the wheels get old they can fracture and fly apart in fragments so  I always wear the protective goggles with it to protect the eyes.    The flying fragments do not hurt if they hit elsewhere on the face or skin.......they just have a startle factor.

  • Member since
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  • From: Dallas, TX
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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, April 4, 2018 2:43 AM

richhotrain

Since you are going to use the NCE 5 amp system (a wise choice), use 14 gauge wire. I use solid copper wire since I have a lot of it on hand from my household projects, but many modelers prefer stranded wire.

I like solid wire because it is easier to strip in my opinion, and 14 gauge is not unduly stiff. Stiffness only becomes a problem with 12 gauge and larger (such as 10 gauge) which is only needed for stuff like O scale or G scale.

For DPDT switches, I use Miniatronics mini toggle switches. They are highly reliable and compact. 

Rich

I found a good source.   There is a link off the NCE website and they have some how-to videos on the NCE website.     www.wiringproducts.com.

So they have the crimper pliers as well as the plastic connectors for T-connections from 14 Gauge to 16 guage.     Then 16 guage to 18 and so on.    Also, custom control panels and switch panels if you don't want to make them yourself.

 Someone also suggested Home Depot and I was surprised to find most everything there as well in their Electronics section.     Though they do not have the crimper pliers or the neato torpedo plastic crimp connectors.

  • Member since
    January 2010
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Posted by peahrens on Tuesday, April 3, 2018 9:58 PM

a) I have the NCE 5A system, on a modest 5'x9' layout.  I relied on the Kalmbach DCC Guide (pgs. 42-44) which recommends keeping voltage drop below 1v, with 0.5v drop limit preferred.  They have a related table for 0.5v drop that shows, for  5A, a run of 25' for 16AWG, 40' for 14AWG and 65' for 12AWG.  It does not distinguish between stranded or solid wire.  Of course, there is nothing wrong with heavier than recommended bus wire. 

b) Basis that, with a max run of 25' for my layout, and sub districts with 4A circuit breakers, I felt comfortable with 16AWG, readily available at Lowes, and have had no problems.  I went with stranded bus wire partly because I theorized that the "suitcase" / IDC / Scotch-Lok connectors I planned to use might work well with the dual teeth clamped to strands vs. a solid core.  (But that's a wild guess on my part).  I figured the additional drop of my short feeders would be ok.

c) For feeders, I decided on 22AWG solid, as I figured that would be easy to bend and solder to the rail.  I got that wire in various colors from Hobby Engineering.

d) For bus to feeder connection I decided on Scotch-Lok suitcase connectors.  You need to use a correct one for your bus and feeder wire sizes, so if using those do decide on the three components (bus wire, feeder wire & particular IDC connector) together.  I first bought so-called "ScotchLok" connectors on EBay for 8 cents apiece, which were knockoffs with a slightly skewed name and were not even similar design (1 tooth versus 2).  Do not save $ on these, buy the 3Ms.  Mine were the #517-558 from Mouser, which are for the 16AWG through wire and the 22AWG takeoff wire.  Mine were 27 cents, but it looks like currently 57 cents unless you buy 100 (then 37 cents).  Do note that some folks consider IDCs too big a risk / compromise when the objective is, of course, bullet proof wiring.  You must decide.

Note there may be more than one 3M IDC choice for the wire sizes you decide.  I liked the dual teeth feature of the 558.

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/137029O/3m-scotchlok-self-stripping-elec-tap-connector-558.pdf

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/3M-Electronic-Specialty/558-BULK?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvlOED0T0kTWiOXlduzW7xC

d) I did take note of using a good tool and technique on the IDCs.  The 3M tool is pricey, but I got some parallel / straight jaw Robo Grip pliers (others will do) that do the job adequately at less than 1/2 the price.

e) For my Tortoise toggles, I used DPDP on-on (no center off) mini toggles MTS-8 from All Electronics.  These are not momentary, as the Tortoise is a stall motor that has current to it even when not moving, which keeps torque on the points for good contact.  I also added bi-color LEDs LED-6 as a neat feature on the control panel.  The LEDs fit nicely (friction fit) into one part of the HLED-4 "clip" as a mounting method on the panel.  

https://www.allelectronics.com/item/mts-8/dpdt-on-on-mini-toggle-switch/1.html

 

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • From: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted by BigDaddy on Tuesday, April 3, 2018 9:52 PM

3M is the real thing, there are knock off products too.

There are also sizes of scotchlok connectors the #905's work for stranded 14-18 ga bus and 18-22 ga feeders

 

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Franklin, OH
  • 153 posts
Posted by rrlcommish on Tuesday, April 3, 2018 9:06 PM

I got my suitcase (3M ScotchLock) connectors from WinSupply in Dayton OH.  Not sure if they have other locations in the US.

  • Member since
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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, April 3, 2018 7:24 AM

 With the proper stripping tool (such as the Ideal Stripmaster), solid or stranded is equally easy to strip, at the ends or in the middle for soldering feeders (I use the same tool I use for layout wiring when replacing electrical outlets around the house). Stranded wire, even at #124, is way easier to string along through the benchwork compared to solid. I use solid for feeders because it is easier to poke down through holes and because it is easier to bend it up againsd the base of the rail so it stays all but hidden. Bend solid wire too much and it snaps off.

                                   --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Phoenix, AZ
  • 1,835 posts
Posted by bearman on Tuesday, April 3, 2018 5:44 AM

One thing about the 14AWG solid wire is that when it is bent, it stays bent.

Bear "It's all about having fun."

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, April 3, 2018 4:38 AM

Since you are going to use the NCE 5 amp system (a wise choice), use 14 gauge wire. I use solid copper wire since I have a lot of it on hand from my household projects, but many modelers prefer stranded wire.

I like solid wire because it is easier to strip in my opinion, and 14 gauge is not unduly stiff. Stiffness only becomes a problem with 12 gauge and larger (such as 10 gauge) which is only needed for stuff like O scale or G scale.

For DPDT switches, I use Miniatronics mini toggle switches. They are highly reliable and compact. 

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Phoenix, AZ
  • 1,835 posts
Posted by bearman on Monday, April 2, 2018 11:57 AM

I would go with 14AWG even though it is overkill, mostly because you dont know what the future will hold in terms of an expanded layout, especially if you are going with a 5 amp system.  Stranded 14AWG is easy to work with and not that much more expensive than 16AWG unless you have a supply of the 16AWG wire already on hand.

I assume those connectors you metnioned are the 3M Scotchlok suitcase connectors.   Check Micromark or any electronic/electric supply store.  I think even Home Depot carries them.  I believe however that you will need a special crimping tool.  They come in different sizes, which I believe are color coded, and you will have to check and see which ones will meet your needs in terms of connecting your feeders to your bus.

As for the toggle switch, I suspect it is a personal preference thing,Home Depot, Lowes, any decent hardware store carries them.  If you want to go shopping on-line there is Grainger or Janeco (or is it Jameco?).

Bear "It's all about having fun."

  • Member since
    June 2009
  • From: Dallas, TX
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Question on Bus
Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, April 2, 2018 11:35 AM

So at most the run of the track power BUS from my NCE 5 amp power pack is going to be about 15 feet long.    The NCE manual metions we should use 14 gauge stranded wire for this.    The Model Railroad Consultants say that a smaller guage would do and 14 is probably overkill for my layout size, they would recommend 16 to 18 guage stranded.     What is the consensus here of what gauge to use for the track power bus?      If 16 gauge stranded is OK I am fine with using that.   I realize I can go smaller for shorter runs between the BUS and the feeder wires to the track.

Next questions are on wire splice connectors, saw these online on a youtube video and they look really neat (vs soldering the connection) and look to be a time saver.    But on the video the MR never mentioned his source.    So I am curious.

Where can you buy those neat snap together wire splice T connectors to connect the bus to feeder wires?     

Also do they make a 14 gauge to 16 gauge T-Connector (wire gauge conversion) or are they generally all in the same gauge?

On the control toggle switches for the tortoise machines what is the general perference for those, pushbutton, toggle, slide?     Preferred supplier?

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