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Loksound Headlight The Case of Rule 17 solved

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Loksound Headlight The Case of Rule 17 solved
Posted by BigDaddy on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 7:28 PM

While we await the next inexplicable short mystery, I ran into my own problem trying to progam a loksound select for a Stewart F3.

I wanted the headlight constantly on forward and backward.  I mistook the headlight as CV 259. Long story - short, I got all sorts of flashing effects and no headlight at all with the various combos I tried. 

To continue our Sherlock theme: "‘Nothing clears up a case so much as stating it to another person."  As I composed my question about this, I discovered the error in trying to program CV 259 as the sole controller of the headlight. 

Here is the relevant table

The Mode Select is CV 259, Brightness is CV 262

CV 263 is additive.  I wanted the dimmer, but not off in reverse.  I tried

  1. 16 + 128 = 144
  2. 1 + 16 + 128 = 145
  3. 4+ 16 + 128 = 148
  4. 1 + 4+ 16 + 128 = 149

I have dimming when the loco stops but every combo turns the headlight off in reverse.  Maybe what I want is not prototypical, but that is not my question.

Did any F3's with a single headlight, use a Mars or flashing light?

 

 
 

Henry

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 9:11 PM

 Nver say never, but quite unlikely. F units that had a regular headlight plus a Mars or other oscillating warning light generally had 2 housing on the front, the one in the nose and one on the door.

 Somewhere I'll bet you might find one where the single large headlight was repalced by a paired sealed beam unit where one was an oscillating light and the other a plain headlight. As we know, as soon as someone says "no railroad ever" someone else will find a picture proving that someone did.

 I will go out on a limb though and say if anyone actually DID do it, it was by no means common,

                                       --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 9:17 PM

I'm not getting the CV numbers your refering to, Henry.  Head light dimming for my Digitrax start at CV49.

I'll just sit back and see what replies you get.

I'm not sure if the F7 with a single headlight had the mars or strobe/flashing feature.  I'm guessing not, as those were seperate lights.

Mike.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Thursday, March 29, 2018 12:11 PM

I looked at a bunch of pics of F3's and F7's and there are examples of both with single and dual headlights. I can't identify a Mars light by looking at it, though I notice some headlight housings had vertically oriented pair of bulbs and the other would have a horizontal pair.  But back to my headlight out in reverse issue.

Mark R came to my rescue in another thread where I couldn't get any dimming without using the Power Cab.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/266056.aspx

It looks like I forgot to thank him.  One of the things he suggested was CV 31 = to 16.  I tried that this time without success.  CV31 is not mentioned in the select manual, but is an Index CV like CV 32. 

I've asked on the ESU Yahoo groups.  Yahoo changed groups function a handful of years ago and caused all kinds of problems for group owners and it is less useable than it once was.

 

 

Henry

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Posted by 7j43k on Thursday, March 29, 2018 2:52 PM

The fine folks at the Losound Yahoo group explained to me that messing with CV's higher than 256 was not the straightforward thing I had thought it was.  And I relay that information to here.

I ended up doing a reset to recover from my adventure.  

Apparently, to work on the higher CV's, you need either a Lokprogrammer, or JMRI.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by 7j43k on Thursday, March 29, 2018 2:55 PM

BigDaddy

 

Did any F3's with a single headlight, use a Mars or flashing light?

 

 

Not in that prominent headlight housing, they didn't.  

They COULD have had a "flashing light" on the roof.  But I suspect that's not what you're asking.

 

Ed

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Posted by BigDaddy on Thursday, March 29, 2018 5:20 PM

7j43k
Not in that prominent headlight housing, they didn't.

That's what I was asking.  It is a neat effect, no quite my era, but I think it would stay on in reverse.  Haven't tried that one yet.

 

Henry

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Posted by santafe5000 on Friday, March 30, 2018 11:18 AM

I have considered getting a Loksound decoder but had a question.

Should i get a degree from Cal Tech or M I T, before trying to read the decoder manual????

James in TexasCowboy

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, March 30, 2018 1:38 PM

 No, get it, plug it in, program the address like every other decoder, and enjoy.

                                 --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by maxman on Friday, March 30, 2018 2:11 PM

rrinker

 No, get it, plug it in, program the address like every other decoder, and enjoy.

                                 --Randy

 

You left out the part where he needs to get someone to load a sound file on it for him.

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, March 30, 2018 5:16 PM

maxman

 

 
rrinker

 No, get it, plug it in, program the address like every other decoder, and enjoy.

                                 --Randy

 

 

 

You left out the part where he needs to get someone to load a sound file on it for him.

 

 

So far, when I buy a Loksound Select decoder, the seller has always loaded the sound file for me, at no cost.

 

Ed

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Posted by maxman on Friday, March 30, 2018 8:21 PM

7j43k
So far, when I buy a Loksound Select decoder, the seller has always loaded the sound file for me, at no cost.

I know that, you know that, but we don't know if the OP knows that.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Saturday, March 31, 2018 8:10 AM

maxman
So far, when I buy a Loksound Select decoder, the seller has always loaded the sound file for me, at no cost.

I know that, you know that, but we don't know if the OP knows that.

[quote user="maxman"]

 At one time, I did not know that, but I have a lokprogramer and am enjoying that.  I'm not sure that factory installed sound would give me the desired headlight action.

Yahoo groups has had nothing to say on my question.

santafe5000
I have considered getting a Loksound decoder but had a question. Should i get a degree from Cal Tech or M I T, before trying to read the decoder manual????

No but maybe the manual was translated with Google Translate

"Mode Select: Defines which effect you want to have for these customers"

Customers must mean something else in German, where is Sir Mad Dog when we need him?

 

 

 

Henry

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Posted by wjstix on Sunday, April 01, 2018 10:08 PM

Several quick comments:

Headlights - the earliest E-units and F-units had just the one headlight. A few railroads added a second light in the door on the front of the unit, and added a Mars light there - primarily on passenger units. It soon became apparent in operation that it worked better to have the 'regular' headlight be the lower one, and the Mars light on the upper one. But anyway, no, I don't think there were any locomotives that just had the one Mars light by itself. Railroads that used just the one headlight used it as a regular headlight

Loksound decoders - ESU does make them with sound files pre-loaded at the factory. Hhowever you can use their Lokprogrammer to change or update them later...or you can buy "blank" ones if you wish, and use a Lokprogrammer to load a project on them. 

Loksound headlights - as best I can tell, there is no way to set it up so the headlights stay on in both directions. I've been trying to set one up for a year or two now (Rapido GMD-1) to have the headlight bright in direction travel with the other one dim, but no luck. When I reverse direction, one headlight turns off and the other turns on. I've tried with DecoderPro but couldn't work it out, don't fell like shelling out $150 for LokProgrammer just for that.

Stix
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Posted by maxman on Sunday, April 01, 2018 11:41 PM

wjstix
ESU does make them with sound files pre-loaded at the factory.

Are you certain about this?  I know that there is some generic sound file on them.  But so far as I know they don't come with anything specific.  That's what makes it easy for the dealer......he only needs to stock the bare decoders and can make it anything you want, rather than having to stock every conceivable engine sound.

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, April 02, 2018 7:13 AM

 Yes, if you buy one 'blank' it has some generic sample sounds on it so you cna make sure it works, but to get a full sound project you have to install one with Lokprogrammer, or buy from a dealer who will load whatever one you want prior to shipping.

                                 --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, April 03, 2018 9:48 AM

maxman
 
wjstix
ESU does make them with sound files pre-loaded at the factory.

 

Are you certain about this?  I know that there is some generic sound file on them.  But so far as I know they don't come with anything specific.  That's what makes it easy for the dealer......he only needs to stock the bare decoders and can make it anything you want, rather than having to stock every conceivable engine sound.

 

Well ESU's Loksound catalogue says they do.

It could be some dealers find it easier to buy blank ones and load what the customer wants on them, rather than carrying a variety of pre-loaded ones? I suppose some of the less popular ones might sit on the shelf for years before being bought.

Stix
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Posted by BigDaddy on Tuesday, April 03, 2018 4:22 PM

My long post just got trashed  Crying

Ladies and gentlemen we have a solution thanks to the Yahoo ESU group. :party29:

There was some confusion over how many lights a Stewart F3 has and some of the suggestions were unnecessary.  They strongly suggested that only JMRI or a Lokprogrammer was needed warning of screwing up the CV settings.  Wouldn't a decoder reset return a decoder to the factory state?

If you don't have a Lokprogrammer, the following is probably of no interest to you, move on to the next thread. 

To recap I wanted the single headlight to be on in forward and reverse and be dimmed while stopped or in reverse.

On the Function Output tab:

I selected F0 Front Light (1) and named it headlight, selected Rule 17 forward and dimmer.  I left Rule 17 unchecked

On the Function Mapping Tab, the First column is Conditions, if you click in the that box you have a choice of changing the function, selecting a sensor (1-5) For F0 you have the choice of Driving (meaning is it moving) Ignore, Forward or Reverse and Direction Ignore, Yes or No.   I chose F0 Driving-ignore  Direction-ignore

I was told to add a F0 Direction - Ignore, but this was unnecessary.

The Direction - ignore was the solution.  I looked at the CV's I previously tried to modify, CV 263 was 148.  I do not know what Direction - Ignore actually changed and have asked on the Yahoo Group.

If you have a rear light that you also want to be on, you need to program another line, F0 Reverse Driving-ignore  Direction-ignore  I do not know how this works in JMRI.

 
 
 
 
 

Henry

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, April 03, 2018 4:52 PM

 JMRI has the drop downs for the function conditionals like that. It just takes a long time to read and write all those CVs, even just doing the page. The Lokprogrammer uses ESU's proprietary data transfer method, same as used to load sound files, that is many many times faster than standard NMRA DCC programming. Any of the user-writable sound decoders do that - by that I mean have some proprietary method of loading at least the sound files, because if you think about how long it takes JMRI to read a full motor only decoder, with perhaps, let's make it a nice computer number and say 128 CVs (we'll assume it's reading the full 28 step speed table), remember a CV is 8 bits, one byte - so 128 CVs is only 128 bytes. A sound file is several megabytes. If that transferred to the decoder via standard DCC programming, even direct mode, it would take hours at least. 

 The tricky thing is that the Loksound Select manual only shows a few of the conditionals - the Loksound V4.0 manual shows ALL of them - and there are a lot. Enough to do just about anything you could ever come up with, multiple conditions on each functions as well as multiple modifies - so you can set a function to on only if the loco is going reverse with the headlight turned on and the speed is increasing and it's playing the horn sound. Trying to figure it out with CV values though - a lot of things to check off and sum the options to get a value for each CV then you have to make sure you don't fat finger the CV number because you'll apply the condition to a completely different function. Lokprogrammer or JMRI make it easy. Since I am only using Loksound decoders, I went ahead and picked up a Lokprogrammer. I have no intentions of recording my own sounds, but I have mixed and matched to get the horn I want with the prime mover I want, and that too is super easy to do.

                                               --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, April 09, 2018 11:59 AM

maxman
 
wjstix
ESU does make them with sound files pre-loaded at the factory.

 

Are you certain about this?  I know that there is some generic sound file on them.  But so far as I know they don't come with anything specific.  That's what makes it easy for the dealer......he only needs to stock the bare decoders and can make it anything you want, rather than having to stock every conceivable engine sound.

 

 
I went back and reviewed ESU's website and catalogues that I have and...well, I don't know. Both are as confusing as trying to program one of their decoders. It kinda makes it sound like the decoders come with sounds...or not. I notice in the catalogue they have a list of all available sound types and decoder types you can buy. So like if you want an EMD switcher with a 21-pin connection you need no. XXXXX. It has some listed in black and some in red - but no explanation what the color coding means. However, it appears the ones in red are for specific models, i.e. ones that other manufacturers install at their factory in their engines. So it might be based on that that you can get say a Loksound from ESU pre-loaded for an Atlas FM Trainmaster, or Fox Valley Hiawatha 4-4-2, but the other ones have to be loaded after it leaves ESU?
Stix
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Posted by rrinker on Monday, April 09, 2018 4:28 PM

 ANy of ESU's own sound projects are available to download nad install on a blank decoder (or the dealer will do this for you). There are multiple catalog number for the projects because one for a Loksound Select is not the same as one for a Loksound V5, and it appears some of the large scale (the XL decoders) might also use different sound projects.

 OEM sounds, like custom ones they've done for Fox Valley or Rapido, often aren;t available ont he ESU site for download, as they are the property of the respective manufacturer. The only way you may be able to obtain one of those is to buy the decoder preloaded from that manufacturer.

 Just saw they have a new M420 sound coming, wonder where they recorded it - I rode behind one on the OC&T a few years ago. Certainly not the only operating one around but not ridiculously far from ESU USA. Too new for me, but they keep adding more all the time.

                                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Monday, April 09, 2018 5:30 PM

The bottom line is: as a purchaser, you need to know to ask for the sound you want for your loco or be prepared to purchase a lokprogrammer and install it yourself, if it's available, as Randy points out.

Whether the dealer does it or ESU does it....it's still the same sound file.

 

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

By the Chesapeake Bay

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