OK I tested all my locomotive brands which I have currently with the Atlas #6 turnout and there is no stalling on a #6 frog if I leave it unpowered. So if that is the case should I still power it for just in case or is it OK to leave it unpowered. I would rather skip it myself if possible. Loco's tested (Atheran, BLI, Proto 2000, Intermountain, did both 4 and 6 axle). Have not done the lighted passenger car test yet though but if that passes, I see no point in having to wire the frog with power.......unless there is something I am missing in the testing?
Have not hooked up the Tortoise machines yet, just am testing turnouts to see what brand works best on the mainline turnouts without losing power, next will move to the yard type switches (#4)........testing Atlas, Bachman and Peco. After that is done will mount and wire in switch machines.
I have Atlas Custom Line #6 turnouts all over my current layout. I have not powered any of the frogs, and I have no problems.
For the most part, locomotives have power pickups on both the front and rear trucks and so do most lighted passenger cars. So, unless a power pickup fails, either the front or the rear truck, but not both, will be crossing over the unpowered frog keeping power supplied from the other truck.
Only the shortest of wheelbase equipment will produce stalls on a #6 turnout.
Rich
Alton Junction
2 layouts ago, it was mostly Atls #6, with some #4 in the yard. Nothing stalled, so I never powered any of them.
Last layout, I ran a wire to every frog before installing the turnout, and once again nothing stalled before hooking anything up, not even my 44-tonner. So I ended up with a bunch of green wires (green for frog!) under the layout not connected to anything.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
It is much easier to just do it when you install the turnouts and machines than to retrofit later, so I do all of mine now.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
CMStPnPOK I tested all my locomotive brands which I have currently with the Atlas #6 turnout and there is no stalling on a #6 frog if I leave it unpowered. So if that is the case should I still power it for just in case or is it OK to leave it unpowered.
I would at least install the frog feeders before putting the turnouts in place. You may never have the need to power the frog, but if the need does arise, i.e. you get into short two axle critters like I am, having the wire already in place will make the job easy.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
OK, thanks again everyone for your feedback I should be good for at least 6-8 weeks now with all the electrical tasks ahead of me. I still need to do the KATO Superliner lighting and tail light kits as well. BLI CB&Q CZ set should be ready to test though. Lots of electrical to keep me busy.
Have not started on turnout Control Panels yet but thats also on the list before I get to scenery and buildings.
richhotrainFor the most part, locomotives have power pickups on both the front and rear trucks and so do most lighted passenger cars
Yes I have noticed that Locomotive Quality has shot up quite a bit from the 1980's. Back then Atlas was the best with it's wheel scraper pickups and smooth can motors, and you could run Atlas at a slow crawl forever without overheating with a MRC Tech II power pack........now it seems Athearn is very close if not the same to Atlas. Back in the 1980's Atheran (was somewhat crappy) once the engine broke in was very jerky at slower speeds......they never ran smooth unless you were at med throttle or higher (at least for me). As for Tyco brand back then or Bachman forget both of them......both were absolute crap.
I still retained about 40 boxcars of mixed Atheran and Campbell Scale Models heritage, mostly 50 foot outside braced but some rebuilt 40 foot models, half of them are still horn hook and the other have I have #5 Kadees on them. So thats another project getting rid of the horn hook couplers.
OK, I wanted the readership in the Forum to know that the Atheran Genesis MP15AC will stall on both #6 and #4 Atlas turnouts because the frog is not powered, so looks like I am powering all the frogs from tortoise. Interesting the GP9 makes it through fine but because of the slightly shorter wheelbase the MP15 does not.
All right, I must admit I am a bit curious here. The MP15 stalls even on a #4? I don't have the slightest doubt about the things you are ststing in your post and furthermore that back when I used isolated frog turnout regardless of mfger I powered the frogs just for insurance purposes. Are you sure there isn't more to the stalling of that MP15 than the nonpowered frog? Just wondering. Hard for me to imagine there is a time when none of the electrical pickups are contacting "hot" metal on a #4.
Old Fat Robert
Old Fat Robert All right, I must admit I am a bit curious here. The MP15 stalls even on a #4? I don't have the slightest doubt about the things you are ststing in your post and furthermore that back when I used isolated frog turnout regardless of mfger I powered the frogs just for insurance purposes. Are you sure there isn't more to the stalling of that MP15 than the nonpowered frog? Just wondering. Hard for me to imagine there is a time when none of the electrical pickups are contacting "hot" metal on a #4. Old Fat Robert
OK #4 was a loose rail joiner so my bad there.
#6 is inconsistent appears to be if the leading truck hits the frog at a specific angle and also I am running real slow so the wheel on the leading truck descends into the frog and I think that causes the other truck to lift off the rail caddy corner to it or the frame of the truck to touch the rail. It doesn't happen that it stalls on the #6 everytime sometimes there is a small jerk. Going to power the frogs and retest. New loco, new track. Right now definitely looks like loco design because the GP9 makes it no problem.
Definitely the loco rolling over it because I can hear the zzzt from the momentary short and always one truck is on the centerpoint frog with a partially descended wheel.
Once again, I am not arguing with you on your issues here, but my interpretation of your situation (stress on my interpretation) is that your engine(s) are shorting out on the frog not stalling due to loss of electrical pickup. I can't see how there would be the "ZZST" noise from moving to a isolated frog. That just sounds like a short caused by "incorrect" electrical contact. Just my two pennies. I will leave you alone now.
Old Fat Robert Once again, I am not arguing with you on your issues here, but my interpretation of your situation (stress on my interpretation) is that your engine(s) are shorting out on the frog not stalling due to loss of electrical pickup. I can't see how there would be the "ZZST" noise from moving to a isolated frog. That just sounds like a short caused by "incorrect" electrical contact. Just my two pennies. I will leave you alone now. Old Fat Robert
If you are getting shorts on turnouts, it is most likely the wiring or a problem with the loco wheels touching two rails of opposite polarity. If either situation is true, then you are wasting your time powering the frogs.
Is the MP15 the only loco that cannot traverse the turnouts? If it is, then check the power pickups on that loco. Put it on a section of powered track and while it is running, lift the front of the loco off the rails and see if the rear truck is still driving the loco. Then, set the front of the loco back on the rails and lift the rear truck off the rails. See if the front truck is still driving the loco.
The Athearn MP15AC stalls on many Atlas switches with dead frogs installed a tad to high because the trucks are very tight mounted and can not swing vertical but "park" with one wheel on top of the dead frog.
Remove the nose from the truck top and add a small washer to provide the space for the truck to swing 3 dimensional.
Reinhard
faraway The Athearn MP15AC stalls on many Atlas switches with dead frogs installed a tad to high because the trucks are very tight mounted and can not swing vertical but "park" with one wheel on top of the dead frog. Remove the nose from the truck top and add a small washer to provide the space for the truck to swing 3 dimensional.
Faraway: That is interesting. May I ask how you discovered this and does it apply to other Athearn locomotives? I think you feel the Atlas frog (in this case) is too high. If that is so, would not some judicious work with a file solve the problem? Thanks for some new information.
When one truck looses contact you are running a 0-4-0. That is not a reliable configuration and random halts are likely. That is what happens with the MP15AC.
I picked that information from a German modeller named "Schraddel". He is also in Big Blue and explained the problem and the solution. It worked very well for me.
I would hesitate to file a frog down. How to handle the file to be perfect horizontal without ruining all the other rails. But yes, it soulds good but I have no idea how to hold a file to do that.
I think it boils down to stacking potential problems.
- stiff truck is no problem
- an elevated frog is no problem
- a dead frog is no problem
- not perfect clean rails and wheels is no problem
but a dead elevated frog under an engine with stiff truck and the other truck is not making perfect electrical connection is a problem.
ps. Two of my Broadway SW1500 have the same problem of to stiff trucks on elevated dead frogs. Did not look into that models in detail and have no solution other than have them stored in the basement.
Extremely well put sir. And the hesistancy on the filing is understandable. I believe I will stay with my Shinohara code 70 power routing turnouts.
faraway When one truck looses contact you are running a 0-4-0. That is not a reliable configuration and random halts are likely. That is what happens with the MP15AC. I picked that information from a German modeller named "Schraddel". He is also in Big Blue and explained the problem and the solution. It worked very well for me. I would hesitate to file a frog down. How to handle the file to be perfect horizontal without ruining all the other rails. But yes, it soulds good but I have no idea how to hold a file to do that. I think it boils down to stacking potential problems. - stiff truck is no problem - an elevated frog is no problem - a dead frog is no problem - not perfect clean rails and wheels is no problem but a dead elevated frog under an engine with stiff truck and the other truck is not making perfect electrical connection is a problem. ps. Two of my Broadway SW1500 have the same problem of to stiff trucks on elevated dead frogs. Did not look into that models in detail and have no solution other than have them stored in the basement.
Let me ask the OP these questions.
Check the wheels with an NMRA gauge. I have yet to have an issue with a turnout, like the loco 'bumping' through the frog, that wasn;t actually caused by the wheels being out of gauge.
There definitely were some Atlas turnouts which had high frogs. I never had a problem with any of my steam locomotives on them, as all have multi-wheel pick-up. However, when a friend visited and brought along several of his brass steamers, mostly eight-coupled Mikes and Northerns, they consistently stalled on three Atlas #6 turnouts in my staging yard, even though their long driver wheelbases easily spanned the unpowered portion of the Atlas turnouts.I've never bothered to power any of the Atlas frogs, as they never presented any problems until that incident.After watching the brass locomotives very closely as they attempted to navigate through the problem turnouts, it was obvious that the drivers passing over the frog were being lifted just enough to lose contact, and with the stiff springing common on brass steam, all drivers lifted in unison.With the power off, I placed a metal straight edge across the rails and slid it along the track and discovered that the frogs of the three problem turnouts were sitting higher than the rails to which they were connected. A few passes with a mill file, with the residue vacuumed-up, solved the problem.I recently had a somewhat similar problem with some Micro Engineering turnouts, where some locomotives would hesitate while passing through the area of the guard rails, and where an older Atlas S-2 diesel would either stop moving (actually jammed in place) or have its wheels lifted off the rail as it passed through the guard rails. I was on the verge of taking all of them out and replacing them with Atlas turnouts (which, other than the three discussed above, have been very reliable, unpowered frog and all), but decided to check them with the NMRA track gauge, and discovered that the guard rail clearance on all was too tight. Some judicious work with a cut-off disc in my motor tool cleared that up rather quickly, and all work properly now.Don't assume that everything that you buy, even from reputable and long-established suppliers, will be trouble-free: production glitches do occur, even in otherwise reliable products.
Wayne
No your not stressing me out. I have a real thick skin even for highly critical posts (if they are deserved)..........thanks for your input I am still testing and will let you know what I find.......it's going to take a few days or weeks though as I want to keep moving forwards in other areas that need work and this months budget is spent for the HO Scale layout (lol).
farawayThe Athearn MP15AC stalls on many Atlas switches with dead frogs installed a tad to high because the trucks are very tight mounted and can not swing vertical but "park" with one wheel on top of the dead frog. Remove the nose from the truck top and add a small washer to provide the space for the truck to swing 3 dimensional.
Thanks for the input I will try that next.
No other 4 axle locomotive I own is having this problem (GP-9, GP-35) The six axles are not having it either.........so I tend to lean towards design flaw with the loco. I still need to test the switch just on the benchwork vs on roadbed (which could mean uneven track), Also need to test unpowered vs powered.
OK I will do the track testing first to satisfy Rich's questions before I do the washer as I am really curious myself if it is just this one turnout or all of them. #4's are OK that was a loose rail joiner via engine vibration causing the issue as I was testing that turnout on flat benchwork and it was not fastened down in anyway with no roadbed. So I will test other #6's. So after this passes then I can start testing my single #6 crossovers between mains.
rrinker 2 layouts ago, it was mostly Atls #6, with some #4 in the yard. Nothing stalled, so I never powered any of them. Last layout, I ran a wire to every frog before installing the turnout, and once again nothing stalled before hooking anything up, not even my 44-tonner. So I ended up with a bunch of green wires (green for frog!) under the layout not connected to anything. --Randy
A sidebar to the main issue of the thread. I don't know about the Atlas turnouts, but regarding Walthers/Shinohara Coce 83 turnouts, I tested and found that the frog and adjacent guardrails are electrically connected. Therefore, when I found during operational experience after installation that certain frogs had to be powered, I simply dropped the frog power feeder from the guardrail. No need to attach feeders to all the frogs in advance.
Dante
In this case though, if the other locos are all fine and only this one is having an issue - it's more likely the loco than the turnout.
rrinker In this case though, if the other locos are all fine and only this one is having an issue - it's more likely the loco than the turnout. --Randy
While I generally agree, I'll provide a cautionary note. I built my layout and ran nothing but 4 and 6 axles diesels for years with no problems. Then, I got my first steamer. It was shorting at one particular turnout that every other engine negotiated flawlessly. With guidance from my friends here, I found the problem with wide-tread wheels going over a Peco frog. Clear nail polish fixed the problem in seconds.
You will likely notice issues on short steam like 0-6-0T, OR two axle diesel switchers like a plymouth, or something like BLI's track cars. Trying running them at speed step 1, cold engine over the frog and see what happens.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
doctorwayneDon't assume that everything that you buy, even from reputable and long-established suppliers, will be trouble-free: production glitches do occur, even in otherwise reliable products.
OK, on the Athearn MP15AC locomotive stalling on the #6 turnout.....
It was the #6 turnout itself that was not absolutely level because of how I am doing the roadbed that was causing the issue. Although, what the earlier poster says about the front truck needing a washer is probably also correct because you can see by the way the trucks ride back and forth they are restricted more than on other models.
I remounted the #6 turnout just on the benchwork with no foam roadbed......no issues. Put it back on the roadbed and spend some time making sure it was level on all approaches.........no issues. I could not tell visually between the turnout being slightly warped on the roadbed to it being absolutely flat on the benchwork, the difference had to be very slight.
So I am going to bet per the discussion earlier in this thread the MP15AC trucks are just barely in whatever the standards are (if any) for electrical pickup and flexing with the track. I am going to still put a washer inside as recommended on the MP15AC I think to prevent future issues.