cap3344Folks, I know the DC vs DCC discussion has been debated for years and I certainly didn't mean to lob a grenade into that discussion. I do see that DCC vs "advanced cab control" is a theme here, but its a fee-for-all, as long as we agree to keep it civil! My 4x8 is stuck in a room with very little free air space, would love to learn more about walk-around throttles for DC system - if I only had the room! For now I have 3 transformers available - all old/bought used - all MRC's (Tech II 2400, Tech 4 250 and a Sound, Power and Light 9000).
It's OK, we are much more civilized about that now. A decade ago on here, not so much.
It has long been my view that there is no one choice, that the best choice for any one layout and layout owner depends on a number of factors.
I have used DCC quite a bit, just not at my house. Remember, even though I use DC on my layout, I spoke right up and supported the virtures of DCC for multi train operation on a small layout, no different than Randy's comment.
My personal thing is that I am a poor multitasker, so I would NEVER try to actually "operate" two trains at once in a situation where they could colide. But that's just me.
My trains each have their own "Engineer" or they run on dedicated "display loops" that are intergrated into my track plan.
Best of luck, welcome to the group,
Sheldon
The Atlas wiring book I have shows how to set up multiple cabs.
Good luck,
Richard
MZL is great on a alrger layout - you can run trains almost the same way as DCC, as in the person with a throttle just runs the train, followign signals and so forth, No toggles to flip or any of that annoyign stuff.
On a small layout though, if you truly want to run more than oen train at a time (and it is quite possible to have a 4x8 that handles 3 people simultaneously runnign trains) the electrical blocks would have to be so short as to be nearly useless. For one person, running one train, there's not much point in using anything but DC, unless you want sound locos, they work FAR better with DCC. But for a small layout where you truly want to have 2 or 3 trains going, not just one looping on autopilot while you run a second in the yard or something, DCC is absolutely the way to go.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I had about two dozen blocks on my layout. Every time the line forks at a turnout each fork is a new block. This comes in very handy as I can leave a locomotive or train pretty much anywhere I want and then run one of several more locomotives on the layout. It’s not complicated at all since each train has a card which tells it which route to take and which blocks it can occupy. As for cabs, I have three but it is entirely possible to have dozens if you choose to. I use the Atlas cab selectors because they are easy. In some future I will replace them with DPDT center off switches mounted to a schematic board. I use the Atlas selector for the two main cabs which are CMI Super Blue walk around throttles. The third cab is just for the yard. It is controlled by a DPDT center off switch which toggles between the Atlas selector or an old Tyco transformer which I added a slot car type throttle (actually for a Turbo Train) so the operator can walk around the yard without being tied down. As for DCC being simpler, I don’t think so in my case because rewiring 50 Athearn blue box locomotives along with a bunch of Walthers, Atlas and Rivarossi locos doesn’t sound easy or fun. My walk around throttles are sweet so I see no reason. As for sound I drown out the sound with music.
When a club I belonged to was built in the early 1980's, it was DC with common rail, four throttles, fourteen blocks, one reverse loop and needed a man at the control console. Each operator had to request a block. Anyone using the reverse loop was a pain.
DCC made it much, much easier.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
As stated earlier, I use a form of Advanced Cab Control.
A brief explaination:
First, rather than block toggles or rotary switches, a system of relays and momentary push buttons are used to assign cab power to the track sections (blocks).
These pushbuttons exist in duplicate/triplicate where ever needed.
One set is on the dispatchers panel, one set exists at the beginning and end of every block at locations known as tower panels. These buttons also include a "clear" button which disconnects all throttles from that block.
BUT not every block needs a set of buttons, in fact many blocks are powered automaticly by the position of turnouts. Change the route and automaticly reroute the power as well.
So, in actual practice there are only about half the number of blocks that need to be "assigned" as in typical rotary switch systems.
Turnouts are also controlled at local tower panels and on the dispatchers panel.
So with a dispatcher on duty, you simply pick up your radio throttle, follow instructions from the dispatcher, obey the signals and run your train. When the dispatcher sets your route (like in real life) he assigns your power and that gives you a green signal. You never even touch a push button, or a toggle, or a rotary switch.....kinda like DCC - but with a much simpler throttle that only has 5 buttons.......
But even without a dispatcher, you at a tower panel, simply push the correct button to assign your train to your throttle, set a route through the next interlocking (group of turnouts controlled at a tower panel) and proceed to the next interlocking, where you may have to push a button or two to continue.
The rest happens automaticly. Other operators can follow one block behind you, or be opposing you on single track, taking sidings for meets.
I have been developing and using this system for many years and installed a version of it on a friends layout more than a decade ago.
It is based on the early work of Bruce Chubb and Ed Ravenscroft. Look up MZL control in the Model Railroader archive if you have access.
DC is not just "flipping toggles" if well designed. This is just one type of Advance Cab Control that eliminates common cab control problems, there are several others.
This system also includes things like Automatic Train Control - in other words if you run red signal, your train just stops. It does not run into someone elses throttle control, it just stops - amazing.
It does work best on a medium sized or larger layout, and is very suited to large, but relatively simple track plans which are very prototypically proportioned - not spaghetti bowls of track.....
7j43kThat was so that, as you turned the rotary block switch around, you didn't pick up other throttles as you went.
I left that part out for simplicity.
What I used were momentary contact, normally closed push buttons. With one hand I could hold the push-button in, select the cab, then release the pushbutton.
Cheers! Ed.
I was in a club that was DC. There were MANY blocks. And somewhere between 5 and 8 cabs.
The diagram, above, showing rotary switches is pretty much how we did it. Except there was also a toggle switch on the line over to the block. That was so that, as you turned the rotary block switch around, you didn't pick up other throttles as you went.
It worked. But was a real PITA to use. And, especially, to remember to throw the toggle FIRST. Before twisting the rotaries.
Ed
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vGumgrCq2aIZAbW62 (layout design)
Thanks, you have an impressive DC layout, for sure. I really decided to stay DC early on, since I have some post-war steam loco's my Dad built that I wanted to get running again. And the layout is really a tribute to his memory. I can run 2 trains now, have done it, but really just with loco's. With rolling stock attached, may be a challenge. As I implied, this was more part of my learning, than a real need. When I started this almost 2 years ago, running 2 trains myself was a "must have". Ultimately (if there is such I think), I'm hoping for some type of bluetooth/battery powered option - nextgen beyond DCC to win some critical mass.
A few thoughts from a DC operator.......
DCC does have a lot of advantages on a very small layout. Interestingly enough, larger DC layouts can be very similar to DCC in operation if planned correctly.
Are you really going to run two trains? Or is one simply going to "go around the loop"?
Nothing wrong with the traditional Atlas wiring scheme, but actually there are better ways to wire a layout for DC. But it is important to identify your goals and operational needs in advance.
I run DC on a large layout, four mainline trains at once, 3-4 others in yards, industrial areas. dispatcher, signals, CTC - no block toggles or rotary switches.....
Wireless walk around radio throttles and something called Advanced Cab Control.
But again, if you are staying small but want to run more than one train at a time, DCC might be the way to go. At that level it is not very expensive.
But here is the thing, do you really need/want to run more than one train at a time in such a small space? If one train at a time will do, you already have too many blocks and you simply need "kill switches" for parking locos on spurs or sidings.
If I only had that much space, I would only be running one train at a time. But then again, I only run one train at a time now in a 1000 sqft train room. I either have a crew, each engineer running one train, and a dispatcher setting routes - or - other trains run on dedicated loops for display while I "run" one train. And that kind of thinking can be done just as easily with DC or DCC, at similar costs.
thanks... 2 for me was my design objective - I figured I had 2 hands, so why not?
Thanks... yup I'm cool on blocks vs cabs. The Atlas A/B Cab controllers are the limiting (to 2) factor. A rotary switch of some kind sending the right (single!) cab's power to a block I guess is what does it. Good to know if my wife every lets me knock down a wall to expand the layout (ha).
Hi, cap
My layout was originally DC using cab control.
I think the first thing to straighten out is the terminology.
cap3344 I think I need to add another block
Adding another block isn't adding another "cab". You can have one length of track with an insulated gap every foot and have ten "blocks" in ten feet.
Adding a "cab" requires another power-pack/throttle.
From what I gather your question is, if I'm running one or more engines on the outer loop, one or more engines on the inner loop, can I also control an engine on one of the yard tracks?
Yes, you can. There were some "blocks" on my layout where I had five cabs (throttles or power-packs) it is simply a matter of how you want to select which "cab" is feeding that block.
cab_1 by Edmund, on Flickr
In some cases I used a rotary switch. In other cases I had the usual DPDT switch to choose cab A or B then added a second DPDT switch to select "yard or road" which turned over control to a cab dedicated to the yard tracks.
Good Luck, Ed
Curiosity speaking, sure, you can have a cab for each block, remember each cab needs a power pack. You'd have to have all the block controls done with toggle switches, and, and have about 4 extra people there just throwing block control switches, to keep trains moving, and see just along that works out!
Reality wise, having 2 cabs on your 4x8, with 2 mainlines is about all you'll want.
At least with your 2 mains, you can run 2 trains, and keep control of both.
Mike.
My You Tube
Cap,
You may have your reasons for staying with DC, and that's fine. That said, with a modest 4 x 8, it seems that wiring for and operating with DCC would be a lot simpler than adding more blocks - even if you are the only operator.
Just sayin'...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
So my modest DC only 4 x8 is up and running, electronics in place, 7 blocks, 2 mainlines, 2 yard tracks and 6 Atlas turnouts all controlled remotely by Atlas switch motors via #56 controllers. All nice and neat, working on the scenics now.
Question from newbie to vets. Is cab control possible for 3 or 4 loco's? If so, is the wiring an order of magnitude much more (2x, 10x, 100x) complicated. Assuming there's even enough track space on a 4 x 8. And frankly, I doubt there will be any other operator than myself on this. So this question is more to satisfy my curiosity vs a real need/desire.
As it is, I think I need to add another block to my outer (2 block loop), fortunately I did prep wiring for that. I read someplace about a 4 block to a loop requirement; but I think, with two interconnected loops I can get away with fewer.