richhotrain rrinker The power is backfeeding through crossed feeders. There have to be more than the ones found, Don't forget to check the gaps between the sections. You need insulating gaps between each section, in both rails. If you don't use insulated joiners, you need something in the gap, otherwise the track expanding or the benchwork shrinking will bring the ends of the rails into contact and causes issues like this. I agree with the idea of crossed feeders. They must be crossed on more than one bus. It is as if there are no circuit breakers, no power districts, the way the layout must be wired. The fact that all three breakers are blinking as well as the booster means that the short is tripping all three breakers and the booster. Maybe Randy can explain this better than me, but it seems that the interconnected buses are tripping not only the breaker protecting the power district where the quarter test is being conducted, but the crossed feeders are routing the short to the other two breakers as well. If that is what is happening, the good news is that the breakers are doing their job. The bad news, though, is the short is finding its way back to the booster as well, shutting down the entire layout and defeating the power district concept. If this were my layout, I would do the extreme and disconnect all of the feeders and start all over after labeling the feeders and the buses. Actually, if it were my layout, I would elect the nuclear option and change out the buses for color coded bus wires. That's the way that I have set up my layout. The bus wires for each power district are separate and distinct colors from one another, green and yellow for the main, blue and orange for the yard, red and black for the 10-track passenger station, etc. And, as Randy pointed out, you need to go over all of your gaps to be certain that the gaps are just that, gaps, and that each power district is electrically isolated from the other power districts. Rich
rrinker The power is backfeeding through crossed feeders. There have to be more than the ones found, Don't forget to check the gaps between the sections. You need insulating gaps between each section, in both rails. If you don't use insulated joiners, you need something in the gap, otherwise the track expanding or the benchwork shrinking will bring the ends of the rails into contact and causes issues like this.
The power is backfeeding through crossed feeders. There have to be more than the ones found,
Don't forget to check the gaps between the sections. You need insulating gaps between each section, in both rails. If you don't use insulated joiners, you need something in the gap, otherwise the track expanding or the benchwork shrinking will bring the ends of the rails into contact and causes issues like this.
I agree with the idea of crossed feeders. They must be crossed on more than one bus. It is as if there are no circuit breakers, no power districts, the way the layout must be wired. The fact that all three breakers are blinking as well as the booster means that the short is tripping all three breakers and the booster.
Maybe Randy can explain this better than me, but it seems that the interconnected buses are tripping not only the breaker protecting the power district where the quarter test is being conducted, but the crossed feeders are routing the short to the other two breakers as well. If that is what is happening, the good news is that the breakers are doing their job. The bad news, though, is the short is finding its way back to the booster as well, shutting down the entire layout and defeating the power district concept.
If this were my layout, I would do the extreme and disconnect all of the feeders and start all over after labeling the feeders and the buses. Actually, if it were my layout, I would elect the nuclear option and change out the buses for color coded bus wires. That's the way that I have set up my layout. The bus wires for each power district are separate and distinct colors from one another, green and yellow for the main, blue and orange for the yard, red and black for the 10-track passenger station, etc.
And, as Randy pointed out, you need to go over all of your gaps to be certain that the gaps are just that, gaps, and that each power district is electrically isolated from the other power districts.
Rich
I was getting there. Just don;t want to scare him away by saying "rewire the whole layout, now". Getting the feeders all labeled is step one, then you know which ones should be collected together in a given bus.
The only thing I can think of as to why is also trips the booster is sort of what I hinted at. If there is only one set of feeders crossed between the yard and the main, and the quarter is some distance away from this crossed feeder, the primary short will open the main breaker as it should. You now have a short that comes through ONE set of feeder wires and over some arbitrary length of track. The whole point of frequent feeders is to prevent voltage drop, but that is no longer the case, there's one set of feeders connecting umpteen feed of track. Not a very solid short. It could possibly take so long to draw excessive current that the breaker in the booster trips first. If that is cycling on and off, then the LED on the breaker will flash as well. I doubt the breaker is actually tripping in this case - just the booster. That's easy enough to test as well, the EB-1 has an option for a manual reset. If that is enabled, then once a short is detected by the EB-1, that should be it, the light on the booster should not flash because the EB-1 will open up and stay open until manually reset. If the EB-1 is not actually tripping, but the booster is, the LED will keep flashing. The only odd thing is that a high resistence 'short' would ordinarily trip the LOWER current breaker first, as you can easily use Ohm's Law to figure out a resistor that will draw say 3 amps at 15 volts, 45 watts (so don;t try it with a typical 1/4 watt resistor, you'll smoke it). That shouldn't trip the 5 amp breaker in the booster, if it did, you could never run enough trains to come close to the 5 amp rating. But it should trip a breaker set at 2.5 amps.
It is entirely possible that in addition to the wiring errors, one of the EB-1s is damaged. With crossed feeders, if a short shuts one off and there is a set of feeders crossed to another district that is not off, it's getting power fed into the output. There's not a published schematic for the EB-1 but looking at the board it appears to switch the track power through some MOSFETS, like the PSX breakers. Exactly how they handle full DCC voltage at the outputs when the transistor is turned off I'm not sure - but it's possible this could do damage.
Should ve easy enough to verify operation - get three spare sections of track. Doesn;t have to be a whole piece of flex if you don't have any. Connect the output of each EB-1 to its own section of track - don;t bother coonnecting the track with rail joiners or attaching it in any way, just 3 completely independent sections of track, each controlled by its own breaker. No part of the layout connected tot he breakers. Try a quarter test on each of the three pieces. In this case there's no possible way they can interact with one another, so the track connected to breaker #1 should ONLY trip breaker #1, and so forth. If any of them actually trips the booster, odds are pretty good that EB-1 has failed.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Part of the problem is that if there is only one set of crossed feeders, it WILL matte where the quarter is dropped. If you get far enough away from the crossed feeder, its influence will become less ( a quarter sitting across the rails NOT pressed down, is not a terriby low resistence short - so don;t push down on the quarter. If you have to push down on the quarter to make something detect a short, your wiring is definitely inadequate.).
Part of the problem is that if there is only one set of crossed feeders, it WILL matte where the quarter is dropped. If you get far enough away from the crossed feeder, its influence will become less ( a quarter sitting across the rails NOT pressed down, is not a terriby low resistence short - so don;t push down on the quarter. If you have to push down on the quarter to make something detect a short, your wiring is definitely inadequate.).
Personally, I don't even use a quarter for the test - - too awkward to put down on the rails and then pick it up again. I use a long shafted screw driver across the rails or sometimes a short length of 14 gauge solid wire where I touch both bare ends to the rail. As Randy says, it shouldn't take much pressure or much time to create the short.
rrinker Another way to verify there are cross-conencted feeders, but it won't help you find anything, is to use a meter set on continuity - prefereably one with a fast beep response. Connect one lead to the main red bus wire. Touch the other end to whicher reail is the red side. Anywhere on the main, it should beep. Anywhere else, it should not beep. If it beeps in either yard, then there is afeeder in that yard connectd to that bus line.
Another way to verify there are cross-conencted feeders, but it won't help you find anything, is to use a meter set on continuity - prefereably one with a fast beep response. Connect one lead to the main red bus wire. Touch the other end to whicher reail is the red side. Anywhere on the main, it should beep. Anywhere else, it should not beep. If it beeps in either yard, then there is afeeder in that yard connectd to that bus line.
I just went down to my layout. Touched one probe to a rail on the main line and the other probe to the matching rail on the other main line (double main line in the same power district). Continuity!
Then, I repeated the test touching one probe to the matching rail in the nearby yard (different power district). No continuity!
Had there been continuity in that second test, something would be amiss.
Alton Junction
rrinker The power is backfeeding through crossed feeders. There have to be more than the ones found, probably at the points where both yards come close to the main line - that's where it would eb easiest to make a mistake. I'm basing that off the entry that says when all breakers are connected and a quarter is dropped on the main line, ALL breakers blink. If each section is properly isolated to be fed from the appropriate breaker, ONLY that breaker should blink when there is a short in that area.
The power is backfeeding through crossed feeders. There have to be more than the ones found, probably at the points where both yards come close to the main line - that's where it would eb easiest to make a mistake. I'm basing that off the entry that says when all breakers are connected and a quarter is dropped on the main line, ALL breakers blink. If each section is properly isolated to be fed from the appropriate breaker, ONLY that breaker should blink when there is a short in that area.
Yes, backfeeding seems to be the cause.
When you look at Gary's photo in the first post, the only path back to the booster is through the two input wires on the two left ports of the terminal block.
In reading the EB1 manual, there is a paragraph below the wiring diagram that reads as follows:
Note: The screw terminals marked with black dots (drawing above) are directly connected together on the EB1 circuit board. If you are using common rail make sure the terminals marked in black above are connected to the common rail (left rail in the diagram). When the EB1 “trips” only the screw terminals marked with an X are disconnected during a short circuit.
Since only the two terminals marked with an X are disconnected during a short, I assume that the path back to the booster is through the two screw terminals that remain connected.
Randy, is this correct?
Randy: Thanks as always for the informative information and your replyies.
I’ll set up and do the three piece track breaker test. Good to know idf the breakers are working. Don’t I need just one track to test each individually?
Gary
Another good easy test. In addition to teh breaker test I do this too.
I guess I can connect one probe to the output of the EB1 for each district. Removing the wire from the EB1 so it‘S not in the mix.
I assume I then do the same with the black bus wire?
gdelmoro I’ll set up and do the three piece track breaker test. Good to know idf the breakers are working. Don’t I need just one track to test each individually?
Sure, you could just check one breaker at a time on one piece of track.
But, I like Randy's suggestion to wire the three sections of track to the output sides of the three breakers.
That is a more comprehensive test.
gdelmoro Another good easy test. In addition to teh breaker test I do this too. I guess I can connect one probe to the output of the EB1 for each district. Removing the wire from the EB1 so it‘S not in the mix. I assume I then do the same with the black bus wire?
That said, have a go at it, test both rails, red and black.
Chances are though, the continuity test will fail because there are likely cross wired feeders.
So the EB1’s are connected to the black wire of each bus is connected to the black dot on that EB1 manual diagram. The red is to the circuit breaker Connection.
gdelmoro So the EB1’s are connected to the black wire of each bus is connected to the black dot on that EB1 manual diagram. The red is to the circuit breaker Connection.
The three separate pieces of track test will determine if each breaker is tripping or if, instead, the booster is tripping. As each breaker is tested, you should not expect both the booster and the breaker to blink. If fact, only the breaker should blink in each instance.
The continuity test will determine if each power district is completely isolated from the other two power districts.
richhotrain The three separate pieces of track test will determine if each breaker is tripping or if, instead, the booster is tripping. As each breaker is tested, you should not expect both the booster and the breaker to blink. If fact, only the breaker should blink in each instance. The continuity test will determine if each power district is completely isolated from the other two power districts. Rich
Thanks
Do those tests now, pleeeeeze, I am dying of curiosity.
richhotrain Do those tests now, pleeeeeze, I am dying of curiosity. Rich
Look at the bright side Rich, it's not your layout.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Ok but this is not good....
The same thing happened with each track the breakers ALL go off no matter which track I short.
https://youtu.be/vdrY6_VO5XQ
The pieces of track are individually wired to individual breakers. There is nothing else connected.
gdelmoroThe black wire to the right of the EB1’s comes from the power supply on the top left of the photo and feeds directly into the power terminal on the Command station.
If the black wire mentioned comes from the power supply to the command station, where is the red wire from the power supply connected?
Yeah NONE of the breakers is tripping, it's JUST the booster tripping. The LEDs on the EB-1 are only flashing because the power to them is going on and off as the booster tries to reset.
Only other thing I can suggest before calling all 3 EB-1's dead, is to try and reset them. Use Ops Mode POM to an address you know yoou do not have a loco set to. Put a jumper on the setup position. Theoretically you can do all 3 at the same time but I'd suggest one at a time. Using Ops Mode, set CV147=85. Then cut power, take the setup jumper off, and move on to the next EB-1. After all 3 have been reset, try the same test in the last video again. If you get the same results, I cna only conclude that all 3 EB-1s are defective.
You can test for crossed feeders another way as well - connect JUST the main, right to the booster. You should noot be able to drive a train into the ferry or sort yards, they should die as they cross the gap. If it still runs, there's a crossed feeder.
Reason I suggested hooking up 3 tracks and all 3 EB-1s is that if the first oone works, and the quarter only trips the EB01, you should be able to do the same to #2 and #3, shorting any combination of 2 tracks or all 3 without the booster tripping, if it all is working properly. Trying one at a time is a good start, but if that works, you should be able to trip a second section and still not trip the booster.
Quite frankly, I think those EB1's are dead.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
maxmanIf the black wire mentioned comes from the power supply to the command station, where is the red wire from the power supply connected?
It's the power cable from the NCE equivalent of a wall wart. Both wires are in the cable.
Gary nice job on the video, it removes all misunderstandings of what you describe. Sorry you are having this problem. If the EB1's are toast, maybe NCE will warranty them.
Like I said, worth a shot to try the reset, just in case. If they ARE dead - do NOT hook up any replacements until the cross wired feeders are fixed - as I mentioned earlier, if anything killed them, it was power feeding back in to the outputs.
Hi all,
Rich spent about an hour on the phone with me (equal to about three weeks worth of posts). We checked each EB1 isolated from the railroad on separate pieces of track as suggested and did the continuity test on the railroad.
To make a loooong story short the EB1’s are not working. Confirmed by a new EB1 working on test and railroad tracks. The good news is that there are no crossed wires on any of the three districts. The ones I thought might be hooked to the wrong bus were not. It was a section of the railroad where 3 mainline and two yard tracks run parallel and I wasn’t really sure. I had abandoned the under layout tracing for the recommended testing and i’m Glad I did.
Thanks again Rich I really appreciate it.
Plan now is to contact NCE to see if they will replace the breakers or maybe discount new ones. There must have been something wrong because otherwise I don’t know how all three could just go bad.
You might ask why now. Well the truth is the all breakers going at once thing did in fact happen a while ago but I always thoght i screwed something up with the bus and feeder wires. When I tested the Ferry yard and it worked it still must of been that breaker. Today it did several different things but never preformed correctly.
Anyway Thanks fore all the replies. And as always special thanks to Randy and Rich.
Gary pretty much summed it all up.
Fortunately, he had a brand new EB1 that we were able to use and test.
It worked flawlessly as expected and, of course, we isolated it from the layout itself for testing purposes.
I was curious how the EB1 reacts when it detects a fault. With power on, the EB1 status LED stays lit. When a short is detected, the LED light goes off, then comes back on with a series a blinks until the short is resolved. The booster status light stays constantly lit, as expected, indicating that the EB1 is resolving the short, since the 2.5 amp trip current default on the EB1 is less than the 5 amp booster. So, the EB1 handles the short, leaving the booster undisturbed to power the other power districts.
That is what I surmised from reading the manual. They use one LED to indicate both power getting tot he EB-1 AND the EB01 detecting a short, so if the booster trips first, I would expect the lights on the EB-1 to blink along with the booster's LED.
Just talked to NCE. I told them that I have 4 EB1’s that do not work and asked if they would take a look and see what’s wrong. They agreed to take them and look at them. The tech stated that the chances of 4 breakers going bad are slim to none. He said they would probably get them and they will be working fine. Usually it’s a wiring problem. I told him I had checked it out and confirmed the wiring with knowledgable people on teh MR Forum. He said I could send them back and they would take a look and see if they can determine what happened.
I’ll send them and see what they say.
Gary, my suggestion is to write down the serial numbers, assuming there are serial numbers, and the power district that each was connected to, and refer to the serial numbers when you send them back.
gdelmoro Just talked to NCE. I told them that I have 4 EB1’s that do not work and asked if they would take a look and see what’s wrong. They agreed to take them and look at them. The tech stated that the chances of 4 breakers going bad are slim to none. He said they would probably get them and they will be working fine. Usually it’s a wiring problem.
Just talked to NCE. I told them that I have 4 EB1’s that do not work and asked if they would take a look and see what’s wrong. They agreed to take them and look at them. The tech stated that the chances of 4 breakers going bad are slim to none. He said they would probably get them and they will be working fine. Usually it’s a wiring problem.
Since NCE thinks that they will all work fine when they get them, perhaps there is some reset function like Randy mentioned. But, I am skeptical that the two that buzzed can be salvaged.
Since NCE is initially ruling out a catastrophic failure of all four, it begs the question, what could have caused the four EB1s to fail? If all four turn out to be bad, what happened? Was it your fault for something you did wrong, or is it a manufacturing fault?
Keep us posted.
I thought the 4th, extra one worked like it was supposed to. Or was that a 5th one?
rrinker I thought the 4th, extra one worked like it was supposed to. Or was that a 5th one? --Randy
richhotrain gdelmoro Just talked to NCE. I told them that I have 4 EB1’s that do not work and asked if they would take a look and see what’s wrong. They agreed to take them and look at them. The tech stated that the chances of 4 breakers going bad are slim to none. He said they would probably get them and they will be working fine. Usually it’s a wiring problem. Two of those EB1s were buzzing when the short was created through the quarter test. That is not a good sign. The other two EB1s failed to trip at all, passing the short through to the booster. My assumption is that all four EB1s are somehow damaged. Since NCE thinks that they will all work fine when they get them, perhaps there is some reset function like Randy mentioned. But, I am skeptical that the two that buzzed can be salvaged. Since NCE is initially ruling out a catastrophic failure of all four, it begs the question, what could have caused the four EB1s to fail? If all four turn out to be bad, what happened? Was it your fault for something you did wrong, or is it a manufacturing fault? Keep us posted. Rich
Two of those EB1s were buzzing when the short was created through the quarter test. That is not a good sign. The other two EB1s failed to trip at all, passing the short through to the booster. My assumption is that all four EB1s are somehow damaged.
I agree they’re all bad but i‘m interested to see what they say. I have $135 standing by for a PSX4 if NCE doesn’t replace or discount new ones.