Batteries... Viable in HO?

[RR_Mel]

Don covered battery operation very well!

 

I was going to pass on this topic but since I spent my entire working career (50 years) in the two way radio/communications industry and batteries are a big component in wireless communications.  I have a lot of experience with batteries.

 

Batteries are only as good as the user!  Manage them correctly and they do very well.  From experience using batteries will let you down when you least expect them too.  There are too many variables to cover all the problems that happen with battery operated equipment but you will have problems somewhere down the line.

 

Proper charging is probably the most neglected part of battery problems.  Even properly charged batteries have their limitations.  A typical rechargeable Lithium cell operated at 50% capacity can be recharged about 300 times but the capacity drops a bit with each cycle. At about 250 charges the capacity has decreased to around 80% at 300 you’re lucky to get 70%.

 

Slow charging a rechargeable battery is far better than rapid charging.  All rechargeable batteries have one thing in common, heat!  Heat destroys batteries, high charge current and high discharge current causes heat and the heat takes its toll on battery life.  Slow charging and low current draw is the key to long battery life.

 

For battery use powering locomotives in our hobby don’t expect a cell to last over 200 charges for good operating conditions.  That ups the cost by having to replacing the batteries every year for the normal model railroader.

 

I’m not against using batteries; I use them everywhere on all kinds of equipment.  They are great for most things but they come at a cost and must be budgeted for replacement.  I have two 11 car passenger trains each powered by a single 3.7 volt 2000 mah (Protected) rechargeable Lithium cells that do extremely well powering the LEDs.  I have an on board chip charger powered from the rails to keep the battery charged.  The chip charger has a resistor that can be changed to reduce the charge current to slow charge the battery; I have mine set for 10% of maximum recommended charge current.

 

The battery powered lighting gives me the opportunity to park my passenger trains with all lights on for long periods without rail power as well as absolutely no flickering when the trains are running.

 

Batteries have their place but not in my locomotives.  I’m quite happy with my dual mode DC/DCC layout and don’t see Dead Rail in my future.

 

 

 

 

 

Mel

 

Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[DigitalGriffin]

Big Controversy over their benefit. I don't want to say "I wouldn't recommend it" But I will warn you it has some serious drawbacks and some benefits.

Benefits:

• First and foremost you won't have to wire your track or worry about blocks or polarity/auto reversers. And average battery will last you a good 40 minutes or so. For some this is a HUGE deal.

Drawbacks:

• They use LiPo. They can be extremely dangerous, especially the cheap ones. If there is a short, you could have a fire on your hands or worse, an explosion if they don't have current control. With DC or DCC the power station limits the current and sometimes shuts down. You take it off the track and all power stops. Not true with an internal short battery.
• Once you are out of juice you are out of juice for at least an hour as the battery recharges.
• They take up vital space that could be used for weight.
• They will eventually have to be replaced.
• You'll have to install some type of wireless system for decoders if you want speed control.

[joe323]

Sure it's interesting but as someone said here I'm already invested in DCC.  Do follow it I do  but mostly it's out of curiosity.

[DanO22]

Steven if you can get ahold of the june 2016 model railroader there is a very interesting article on page 38. The article "battery power without compromises" by Larry Naus is very informational about battery power in ho. The mr archives could be a source for you to find it.

Dan

[7j43k]

Tom

Nowhere near snarky.  And I KNOW snarky.

I'm a very long way from interested in dead rail; but, if the folks who ARE interested continue to report honestly and without hype, I'm always willing to listen.

I liked what you wrote.  Keep up the good work.

 

 

Ed

[tstage]

tloc52

There are lots of battery users out there, just not many on the MR forums. A good place for you if you have an open mind is to google The Dead Rail Society web page. There you will get honest truthful answers from ACTUAL users, not know it alls who have never run battery...

TomO 

Sorry if this sounded snarky, that was not my intention. I am sorry if it you take it that way.

TomO,

It seems like every time someone who has experience with and touts the pluses of the newest technology - albeit Dead Rail, BlueRail, or whatever - they almost always seem to imply that those who choose not to pursue it are somehow closed-minded, anti-technology, and know-it-alls.  They generally concentrate on the upside and "potential" of a given technology and spend little to no time discussing the downside of it.

I have no problem with those who enjoy using battery technology to operate their trains and share why they like it.  What I - and perhaps others - don't appreciate is the continual and erroneous assumption that we who don't haven't even bothered to look at the pros and cons; choosing rather to stick to our antiquated technology preferences because that's what we know and ONLY want to know.

You, yourself stated that batteries are not for everyone and I will wholeheartedly agree with that statement.  The one major hurdle that I see is that batteries will eventually need replacing (ask any Prius owner), which could easily become costly for those of us with larger rosters.  And, while battery technology is continually changing and improving, MRRing will NOT be the driving force behind it; the computer/tablet/cellphone market will dictate that.  Manufactures will care less if they produce batteries to fit in and operate HO- or N-scale locomotives.

So, sorry if my reply sounds snarky in return but I tire of the belittling attitude from battery proponents every time this topic comes up.

Tom

[tloc52]

HO for me and I run  2 locomotives using the CVP mini air products with the batteries in a dummy locomotive. Run time? I have 100’ of mainline plus reversing loops on both ends. I have let the unit train of 24 cars run continously for 3 hours and there was still plenty of charge left when I quit. I also run RailPro using battery for power on 2 units again with the batteries also in a dummy unit. I have run the BlueRail on battery and the throttle was an IPhone. But the Bluerail decoder was very big and was hard to fit in diesels, I sold that. Battery life just letting trains run is no problem, 3 plus hours. Battery life switching seemed to be less than a shade over 2 hours. LiPo batteries are not the danger people who have never used them make them seem. Follow instructions, buy the correct batteries (not R/C) and everything is safe. 

Pete Steimetz took over the Tam Valley product and also sells packages of batteries and everything else you need for Dead Rail or Power on Board. At Trainfest 2016 the guys at CVP showed me their products and they were running steam engines using circular watch batteries. Their product is nice.  Pete also gave clinics on Dead Rail  that weekend. He has a schedule of his up coming clinics at his website. I love RailPro for many reasons but mainly consisting is so easy. Running RailPro using battery or via track power IMO is the best.

There are lots of battery users out there, just not many on the MR forums. A good place for you if you have an open mind is to google The Dead Rail Society web page. There you will get honest truthful answers from ACTUAL users, not know it alls who have never run battery.  

Battery is not for everyone especially the guy who will reply that he has so much equipment it is not worth it. He‘s right. $50 for batteries, 100 or so for a sound decoder, $80 for a charger, and a wireless throttle that matches the decoder, maybe 150 but both the wireless CVP and RailPro Throttles will work with track power. There are other Dead Rail products out there. Stanton’s S-cab, DelTang products from England and others that will fit HO. I am not asking anyone to switch. But things will change and only improve in the future for Dead Rail, Direct Radio and DCC. Is Dead Rail the future, for a few of us it is already.

TomO 

Sorry if this sounded snarky, that was not my intention. I am sorry if it you take it that way.

[NWP SWP]

Sorry forgot to post it CVP Products Airwire

[7j43k]

NWP SWP

So do the batteries charge via the rails or you have to plug them in?

 

Why should I answer your question if you don't answer mine?

 

 

Ed

[rrinker]

 Either way, but you need even MORE space to add the battery charging circuit. So usually, only charge from an offline charger.

                    --Randy

[NWP SWP]

So do the batteries charge via the rails or you have to plug them in?

[maxman]

Dead Rail Society w/list of suppliers:

 

https://www.deadrailsociety.com/dead-rail-suppliers/

 

[tstage]

You can do a search on the forum.  This topic has been discussed several times in the past year or two.

[7j43k]

BigDaddy

It's called Dead Rail.  

 

 

Do you have a link to that company?

 

Ed

[BigDaddy]

It's called Dead Rail.  I think there is a couple fans here, but one of the retailers recently announced they are no longer selling the products. 

 

[7j43k]

I will be surprised if anyone here has any experience with that product.

I note that you do not mention the name of the advertiser. They should have some answers to your questions.  You might drop them a line and let us know what you find out.

 

Ed

[NWP SWP]

I was thumbing through the Jan 2018 issue of MR and I saw an ad for "batteries for locomotives even ho scale" I have heard of such things in larger scales but not HO. What are the runtimes on these units? And are they reliable?