BigDaddyNot sure a Lokprogrammer makes the best us of your funds,
Possibly in the case of the OP, correct.
However, the LokProgrammer does have a couple of advantages if an individual has several of the decoders.
The decoders are sold blank. So if you want sound for an F7 you can go to your favorite vendor and purchase a blank decoder for installation. You don't have to search for or special order a F7 sounding decoder.
If there are updates and or improvements to the sound files, you can download them to your decoder. The original decoder does not become obsolete or out of date.
If you tire of the F7 and want a GEVO instead, you can remove the decoder and reprogram it from an F7 to a GEVO. You don't get stuck with an expensive item.
You can make adjustments to the decoder motor sound so that two or more units with the same sound file sound slightly differently while in consist.
I'm pretty sure that there are other benefits.
gdelmoroIf I also get the Lokprogrammer what do I need?
Not sure a Lokprogrammer makes the best us of your funds, but the one with the most toys wins.
It comes with a old time serial connector for the lokprogrammer side and a USB cable. It comes with one of those little green connector wire terminals like they use on the back of the NCE control panels.
You need two wires to connect to the terminal and I use aligator clips to a old remnant of flextrack but you could get out the solder gun.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Again—
The Lokprogrammer will ONLY program an ESU decoder so you would be wasting an awful lot of your investment.
Do ANY of your locomotives listed above have a Loksound or other ESU decoder?
Just sayin'
Ed
gdelmoro I don't have a PC Laptop and my programming is primarially related to sound volume, momentum, selecting a horn/bell, CV29 and Loco addresses. I have 8 BLI, 1 atlas, 2 Bachman, 1 Athearn and 1 Roundhouse locomotives. I was thinking of buying a cheap windows laptop on eBay but I thought I would ask here first. Do you find that JMRI, Loc Programmer or other PC software is something you find valuable? Use frequently?
I don't have a PC Laptop and my programming is primarially related to sound volume, momentum, selecting a horn/bell, CV29 and Loco addresses. I have 8 BLI, 1 atlas, 2 Bachman, 1 Athearn and 1 Roundhouse locomotives. I was thinking of buying a cheap windows laptop on eBay but I thought I would ask here first.
Do you find that JMRI, Loc Programmer or other PC software is something you find valuable? Use frequently?
I "program" onboard sound locos with similar goals as you do apparently. I can't for the life of me figure out why I would find complicating the process with more technology would result in better results (that could actually be heard or seen) or more enjoyable model railroading. If you just like to fiddle with new things, it might be enjoyable from that aspect.
Keep in mind that I don't run consists, so speed matching is a non issue for me.
- Douglas
peahrens gdelmoro So both JMRI and Loc are free downloads arent they? If so I can get them both and use them when I want. Right now I don't do alot of programming but as time goes on who knows? Cant hurt to try. Yes, the software is free. For the DP you just need the right connections (see below). For the LokProgrammer, you need the free software, the Lokprogrammer and a way to connect it to the program track. But I recall that I went with JMRI Decoder Pro first, planning to use my laptop, which I did. With my NCE 5A Powerhouse Pro, I needed a couple of cords to connect it (serial input??) to the laptop USB. I recall checking in the forum to see what cords would work, some will, some not. So I bought types and brands that folks said wound work with my DCC system input. I forget all the details for both JMRI and LokProgrammer connection. Some of it may relate to your DCC system input type. I would have to refer to my diagrams. I have a switchable on layout program track. Ultimately I included a toggle to let that track section be switched from Program to Ops mode. And additionally added toggles to switch the Program mode from NCE source to Lok Programmer source. And in my case added a program track booster for a reason I don't recall. The point is that you may wish to make some hardware revisions as well. Sorry I forget the details but I can look it all up if needed.
gdelmoro So both JMRI and Loc are free downloads arent they? If so I can get them both and use them when I want. Right now I don't do alot of programming but as time goes on who knows? Cant hurt to try.
So both JMRI and Loc are free downloads arent they?
If so I can get them both and use them when I want. Right now I don't do alot of programming but as time goes on who knows? Cant hurt to try.
Yes, the software is free. For the DP you just need the right connections (see below). For the LokProgrammer, you need the free software, the Lokprogrammer and a way to connect it to the program track.
But I recall that I went with JMRI Decoder Pro first, planning to use my laptop, which I did. With my NCE 5A Powerhouse Pro, I needed a couple of cords to connect it (serial input??) to the laptop USB. I recall checking in the forum to see what cords would work, some will, some not. So I bought types and brands that folks said wound work with my DCC system input. I forget all the details for both JMRI and LokProgrammer connection. Some of it may relate to your DCC system input type.
I would have to refer to my diagrams. I have a switchable on layout program track. Ultimately I included a toggle to let that track section be switched from Program to Ops mode. And additionally added toggles to switch the Program mode from NCE source to Lok Programmer source. And in my case added a program track booster for a reason I don't recall.
The point is that you may wish to make some hardware revisions as well. Sorry I forget the details but I can look it all up if needed.
I have an NCE ProCab with Radio system. If I get a laptop, what cables do I need? If I also get the Lokprogrammer what do I need?
Gary
I am using all of it depending on the situation.
- JMRI for Tsunami and Paragon setup
- Loc Programmer for ESU setup
- Zimo Programmer for Zimo setup
- Programming track for fast changes if I also need to read one or two CV
- On the main for fast changes when the old value is known or of no revance.
Each one has it's domain where it works best (for me).
All software is running under Windows 7 under VMWare Fusion on an Apple iMac. A virtual Windows 10 is in standby in case the first programming software demands a more current environment.
Reinhard
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Something I've seen with JMRI is it can easily get 'stuck' trying to read a whole decoder. I don't have any troublesome ones - all my non-sound are TCS and they've always just worked. But when I take the same setup to the club and access random locos - there are times when JMRI can;t even read one whole page, let alone the whole decoder, in one bulk read. Yet that same loco and decoder, if I read just a few things at a time, it reads just fine. Doesn't seem to be dirty track, dirty wheels, or dirty pickups. Just that JMRI goes too fast. All JMRI does for any DCC system is simulate the input from a throttle, however it 'presses the buttons' faster than even though super speed texters could ever do on the real throttle. Not all decoders respond as fast as others. Even the systems themselves can be guilty of going too fast - that's the main cause of not being able to set the address on QSI decoders, especially with the Digitrax Zephyr. It's noot a power issue, just the built in throttle, when it does the automatic settings for CV17, 18, and 29, appears to send the data too fast for the decoder to fully respond. The exact same same Zephyr but using a DT40x throttle can program the same loco without a problem.
Again, yes, my use case is different - I don;t have any complex setups that I need to have saved in case the decoder goes blank or gets reset. The only remembering I need to do is when I put a decoder in a loco I haven't painted yet, so I don't have a nice cab number to use as a reference for what the address might be. Last time I had one like that I just gave it a new number instead of fiddling around reading it - no track connected to the program track connections on the layout and I didn't feel like firing up the computer and JMRI to use the PR3 to read it.
WIth modern sound decoders and indexed CVs and all this fun stuff, it gets even worse. For every indexed CV you read, you usually have to write 2 or 3 CVs. Since Loksound lets you use CVs to map any function to any sound to any physical wire to any effect to any condition (stopped, running forward, stopping from forward, etc), there are hundreds of CVs to read (and write) if you do full sheets. It gets improved with each update, but this is where JMRI tends to choke.
But that does bring up another point - if your system can;t read the decoder CVs, adding JMRI to it will not fix that. JMRI is just an automated throttle, so it can't add a feature to your system that it doesn't have, or overcome an issue with specific decoders. The proprietary systems are the same, with at least one exception - Loksound V4 decoders support multiple programming methods - their proprietary one, NMRA, Marklin, and I think a couple of others. There's a CV that can set which of these it will work with, so you can disable the ones you aren;t using or don;t have. So you CAN if you put the wrong value in the CV, lock out standard NMRA DCC programming. However, you can NOT lock out the proprietary option, so you can always use the Lokprogrammer to get in and fix it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
gdelmoroSo both JMRI and Loc are free downloads arent they?
Another point about JMRI is that you can download the software and use it as a CV calculator even if you dont have the computer linked to the layout or programming track.
By that I mean, for example, if you want to figure out what CVs need to be for a certain address with, say reverse direction and normal headlight function you can enter this in the appropriate pane (tab) of decoder Pro, then go to the CV pane and read the resulting value to enter into your throttle for programming.
Good Luck, Ed
JMRI, Loc and Digitrax SoundLoader are all free software downloads, but for the latter two you have to have their company's hardware gizmo to connect a programming track to your PC.
A nice thing about JMRI / Decoder Pro is if let's say you like Tsunami sound decoders, you can save a project with all the settings you like for lights, sound volume, brake effects, speed curve, etc for Tsunamis. Then when you install a Tsunami in an engine, you can put it on the programming track and in a few seconds use that saved project to program dozens of CVs on the new install all at once. Then it's just a matter of adding the engine ID, and maybe tweaking one or two to say speed match two engines or adjust for some unusual lighting effect etc.
Also nice that you can save each engine's decoder settings in Decoder Pro as a separate project. If you have to do a factory reset for some reason, you can reinstall all the CV settings all at once.
After programming CV's manually for about a year, we recently made the jump to JMRI. My only question is why didn't I do it sooner.
I have LokSounds in most of my locos, plus a few Tsunamis. I set up JMRI Decoder Pro earlier but then also added the LokProgrammer, which lets me change / update sound files as well as adjust CVs. I'll mention that I also have a ESU decoder tester, which lets me load sound files on bare decoders and test speakers, etc.
I'm not an extensive user so take my comments for what it's worth. I have a NCE PowerPro and do most of my programming with it. After installing a decoder, I first read CV8 on the program track to ensure the wiring is probably ok. Then I set the loco address, adjust sound volumes, using Program on Main on the latter so I can quickly hear the effect of a change.
I like using Decoder Pro or LokProgrammer for certain things. Some CVs are combo featured so it is easier to use check boxes or sliders to get the change I want, rather than having to calculate and enter a Cv value. I thing turning off analog is an example as it is part of a combo featured CV. All in all I don't use Decoder Pro or LokProgrammer for CV setting extensively.
But I have yet to go back and build a file for each loco in either, as I usually make my few changes with my NCE throttle, keepign notes as I go. Even speed matching, adjusting CVs 2, 5 & 6, I can do with one loco chasing the other and adjusting the CV of interest with POM. I would like to go back and make a complete file for each decoder and would probably use the LokProgrammer. In DecoderPro, the LokSound Select files confuse me. There are many ESU Select sound files and the different ones can have different than usual default settings for some CVs, so it's hard to pick the right DP file for a given loco, plus the DP file may not be up to date with the Select file I downloaded.
One quirk on LokSounds with the NCE 5A PowerPro (not the PowerCab). The many indexed CVs (above 255) do not work correctly with program track used. In fact, trying to do that can mess up other CVs (invisibly) as I understand it. Not a problem if you know that, just adjust indexed CVs (over 255) using Program on Main, DecoderPro or LokProgrammer.
StevertPlus, I use other aspects of JMRI. For example, I have dispatcher panels built and use cheap Android tablets as local control panels instead of hardwired physical panels. And I use Operations to generate train manifests. As I mentioned in my previous post, JMRI is much more than just a CV programmer.
Yes, I forgot to mention some of those functions of JMRI as well.
I used to get a "Stack Overflow" on my Digitrax system. It is a simple matter to open the "Monitor Slots" tab in JMRI and free any addresses that you're not using.
The throttle option also can come in handy and I also use a few old Kindle tablets as throttles using JMRI and the free Engine Driver app that's available.
https://enginedriver.mstevetodd.com/
Most of the time I have JMRI running anytime the layout is fired-up. For years I used a RR-Cirkits Locobuffer but recently switched to a PR3 only because I used it to upgrade my throttles and UR-92s.
Regards, Ed
rrinker Since I standardarized on only Loksound sound decoders, it's Lokprogrammer allt he way.
Since I standardarized on only Loksound sound decoders, it's Lokprogrammer allt he way.
Randy and I have very different use cases. He has a single decoder manufacturer and doesn't do many CV changes, so that manufacturer's proprietary programmer is probably his best choice.
On the other hand, I have about 90 DCC locos (I'm thinning my collection) representing nine or ten different DCC decoder brands, further broken down into 30+ individual decoder models. There's no way a Lokprogrammer would suit my needs.
Plus, I use other aspects of JMRI. For example, I have dispatcher panels built and use cheap Android tablets as local control panels instead of hardwired physical panels. And I use Operations to generate train manifests. As I mentioned in my previous post, JMRI is much more than just a CV programmer.
So it really depends on your specific situation. For me JMRI is indispensable, but for Randy, maybe not so much.
Oh, and as far as taking a long time and being unreliable when reading CV's - Yes, it can take some time, depending on the decoder. So you put the loco on the programming track, click on "Read All Sheets", and go do something else for a while. No big deal.
But unreliable? That hasn't been my experience. I use a PR3 in stand-alone programming mode with an 18VDC regulated supply, and it's not often that I have to go back and re-read anything. When it says it's done, I just go to the CV pane and quickly scroll through the list. Any that it couldn't read are highlighted, so it's usually nothing more than having to read a CV or two that were missed. Still no big deal!
Since I standardarized on only Loksound sound decoders, it's Lokprogrammer allt he way. Loksound, like other programmable sound decoders, have their own proprietary communications in addition to the NMRA programming. And good thing, too. Trying to load a few megasbytes of sound files into a decoder using the standard NMRA programming methods would take weeks. With Loksound, that carries over to the regular CV programming as well. All those indexed CVs that take JMRI 10-15 minutes to read, and then you are lucky if they actually all were successful? Lokprogrammer reads in seconds. My non-sound decoders all get just very basic programming - an address, and basic headlights. That's all they need for my era and prototype. I can do that faster with my throttle than the time it takes to fire up the computer and launch JMRI.
I've usee JMRI for a long time. For wide variety of decoder and system support, this is no other options. But I don't use it nearly as much as I thought i would. Once I settled into a 'fleet' of decoders, I have far less custom programming that I might like to have recorded than I figured I would. Mostly I use it with my standalone PR3 program/test track to read and adjust other club member's decoders.
gdelmoroDo you find that JMRI, Loc Programmer or other PC software is something you find valuable?
Keep in mind that the Lokprogramer will only talk to ESU decoders so for your roster it will not help you much.
I've been using JMRI for over ten years and wouldn't be without it. I have over 200 DCC locomotives in my roster and Decoder-Pro is a huge time saver for me.
Occasionally, some of my BLI locomotives will scramble their memory and it is a simple matter to call that engine up and re program everything in a matter of minutes.
I keep all my Decoder Pro roster entries on dropbox an off-site "cloud" based storage site, so that I can access it from any computer. If I make changes in the workshop on the test track and save the changes, they will be there if I need to access that entry on the layout computer or anywhere else JMRI and an internet connection is available.
http://jmri.org/help/en/html/setup/Dropbox.shtml
I also have a Lokprogrammer. I probably have fifty or-so Loksound or Lokpilot decoders. The Lokprogrammer has already earned its keep since I have downloaded new sound projects and updated some firmware. I have also upgraded many locomotives to the new run-hold feature "Full Throttle".
Hope that helps,
JMRI for me and never looked back. I believe the Lok Programmer is only used on ESU decoders so it wouldn't help you on your BLI, Soundtraxx or other decoders.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I've used JMRI for 13+ years. Wouldn't be without it, especially with today's sound decoders with literally hundreds of CV's, many of which interact.
I don't need to calculate any CV values or know that this CV affects that CV - I just click an option on a plain-language screen, tell JMRI to write it to the decoder, and I'm done.
But JMRI isn't just a decoder programming tool.
It also lets you create dispatcher panels, it can control your signals in prototypical fashion, it can do layout automation (and not just run your trains - room lighting and stuff like that as well).
And, it has an Operations feature that will create paperwork such as manifests for operating sessions. It keeps track of where your cars are, track capacity, locations, etc, etc.etc and builds trains based on all that.
An advantage, too, is that it's frequently updated by developers who listen to the user base. They hang out at the JMRI list, so if you have a problem, issue, or suggestion for improvement that needs to be fixd by a code update, you don't usually have to wait very long (or pay an upgrade fee!) until it's fixed.
I had an old XP laptop that was sittin' around, being unused and sad. So (partly because, being a laptop, it was portable), I loaded JMRI on it. I found it not to be terribly user friendly. To me. I even recently had a friend come over and load the latest version and check it out--pronounced it fine.
But. I've never really been comfortable with it. I saw the demonstration video way back--looked so easy. But when I tried playing with it, not so much.
So I've been programming my locos with my NCE Procab. It's been real easy for me to use. Apparently wrongly, sometimes. But it does, indeed, enter the values I chose. Unless the decoder declines to accept ('nother story). So, right now, I see no reason to use anything else.
I've got a programming track, which I almost always use (see below). I found early on that results were greatly improved if I added a "booster", or whatever it's called, to the track.
I recently did my first ground-up DCC/sound install (into a brass gas-electric). I added a "keep alive" (in this case, completely necessary). With Soundtraxx, which is what I used for the whole install, you can't program on the program track IF you use their "keep alive". So I had to do it "on the main". When you program "on the main", you can't read CV's, only write. So I made it a point to write down every CV I entered. Yeah, I've got a folder on the little fella. In fact, it prompted me to start a folder on every DCC/sound loco I work on. I put in any instructions that came with the model. I (try to) write down any CV's I enter/change. Also, the packaging for the DCC bits, so I KNOW what I put in. I'm not regretting it.
I may "re-apply" to JMRI someday. The IDEA of it is great. But the folks who designed it don't seem to have had the absolute beginner in mind for usage. Since most people start as absolute beginners, that's unfortunate.
I suspect there will be people who ARE working with JMRI who will kinda say it's all my fault and I'm not trying hard enough. Perhaps. Wouldn't, though, it be better if one didn't HAVE to try enough? As in: "piece of cake".
PS: I now always put the words "keep alive" in quotes. This is because it appears each manufacturer names the thingy differently. And I don't wish to. So I turned one company's official name into a generic with the quotes. I can well imagine that Loksound, which has what seems to me to have the best "keep alive" system going, would not like it being called by another manufacturer's name. Hence the quotes. I'll note that one of my favorite DCC guys, Mark Gurries, use the term similarly, so I'm in good company:
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/decoders/keep-alive-compatibility
If you aren't afraid of trying something new, look into a raspberry pi. They run on linux, and there is a little bit of setup to get them up and running, but a cheap way to get connected. All you would need would be an old monitor, keyboard and mouse. Youtube has lots of helpful videos.