Can anyone pls help me with customline code 83 Atals turnouts on my DC layout (like this one: http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/Code83/564.jpg)? My trains don't move and I followed instructions about isolating turnouts--adding a plastic rail joiner to one side of the track! Should I put the plastic joiners on both sides of the track? I don't think that's needed since the frogs appear as plastic.
What is the proper wiring configuratation? Currently, I have blocks that run to Atlas selectors and the black wire running to the cabs. I checked the wiring and used a multi-meter and it reads '1' on the resitance setting. Any ideas?
Thanks!
The frogs are not plastic. They are metal and can be left either unpowered, in which case they are a dead spot, or driven with a Tortoise or other turnout controller with frog contacts.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley The frogs are not plastic. They are metal.
The frogs are not plastic. They are metal.
Something else is going on with your layout.
Rich
Alton Junction
Kasskaboose,
I'm assuming You are using common rail wiring since You mention Atlas selectors.
If at all possible a track diagram would be extremely helpful in helping You figure out the problem. Atlas customline turnouts have metal isolated frogs, but are jumpered underneath the frog to have continous power to the divergent rails so You have to make sure You insulate the correct rail, especially if You have double ended sidings and such and also if the turnout is part of a block........even a rough sketch of the plan will work.
Take Care!
Frank
kasskaboose Can anyone pls help me with customline code 83 Atals turnouts on my DC layout (like this one: http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/Code83/564.jpg)? My trains don't move and I followed instructions about isolating turnouts--adding a plastic rail joiner to one side of the track! Should I put the plastic joiners on both sides of the track? I don't think that's needed since the frogs appear as plastic.
The Electrofrog includes instructions for isolating the frog by adding an insulated joiner on the inner frog rail since it is power routing with a metal frog. On the other hand, the Peco Insulfrog has a plastic frog.
So, we need to hear back from the OP because this thread doesn't make sense.
kasskabooseWhat is the proper wiring configuratation? Currently, I have blocks that run to Atlas selectors and the black wire running to the cabs. I checked the wiring and used a multi-meter and it reads '1' on the resitance setting. Any ideas?
Rich,
Read the rest of it.....He says He has blocks...which require insulated joiner for each block and He is using Atlas selectors...so it sure sounds to Me like He is running common rail wiring. He may have the common rail insulated in spots. There should be no gaps in the common rail.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/JIM_L_R4/Jimbasicdc_zpsad69050f.jpg
Could use a sketch of the track plan.
ahh, I see what you mean, Frank.
DC
So yesterday!
Anyhow, Atlas Custom Line frogs are metal and isolated.
Sounds like he doesn't have electrical connections or drops to some of the rails that have been isolated, basically.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Yes, the instructiosn for isolatign turnouts do not apply to Atlas. AAtlas turnouts are wired such that there is no issue feeding from the frog end. The rule about only feeding turnouts from the point side applies to all-rail type turnouts and many that are power routing. Atlas is neither of these, so no insulated joiners are needed on the frog end of the turnout UNLESS it is to create a gap for the next block - this is commonly where the insulating joiners are shown in the Atlas track plan books because it's a convenient place to put a gap. Track past this insulated joiner needs to have a feeder to get power, or the train will stop once it passes the turnout.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Is there any point on the layout where the trains move, or is the whole layout dead? Was there power to the layout before you installed and isolated the turnouts? If there is power to the layout, does the train stop after it has gone through the turnout on the thru and divergent tracks?
Florida: The trains never moved. The entire layout is dead.
All: Thanks for the great help. So I don't need to do anything else with the turnout? I just isolated one rail .
Below is a linke to the wiring schematic. Pls note that the layout is curved and not a straight line, but the wiring principal is the same.
Your link won't work off the forums.....I had to copy and paste in a new tab to get it to work......anyway from what I see right off the bat, You have Your cabs wired wrong for the common rail connections. Look at the link I posted and Your cabs should be wired as such. Your block wiring appears to be ok, from selector to blocks.
kasskabooseAll: Thanks for the great help. So I don't need to do anything else with the turnout? I just isolated one rail .
No........If the insulated/isolated rail is right after the frog to form a block for Your selectors, that is fine. If You're using the Atlas turnouts You show, no need to do anything to them.
They are electrically equivalent. Instead of a wire between the two common terminals of the two power packs and then out to the common rail bus, the two power packs are connected at the opposite ends of the common rail bus. No difference there, as long as that common rail bus is continuous. Even if it wasn't, trains would work of Pack A on one half and Pack B on the other but would not be able to cross the middle easily.
Randy,
Sure they will work that way......but unreliable. All it takes is one loose joiner. What gets Me is that He says nothing works. I still believe He may have a gap in the common rail side somewhere. When I run common rail wiring in the 50's, I always jumped the two cabs together first, before going to layout and never had a problem that way.
Thanks all for you responses and addressing the picture link issue. What a relief that the issue seems minor to resolve.
I'll keep everyone informed of the progress!
Randy: from your link of the 2nd pic, all I need to do is run a common wire (black) between the two cabs in the DC connection. Is that right or am I missing something? I thought that's what I have shown in the image. Can someonne pls clarify?
Best~!
I believe Your confusing Randy and Me....I'm Frank....You sent Me a couple of PM's , I guess one for Me and one for Randy.....anyway.....I'm hoping it can be a simple as that...but I suspect something else may also be happening. Jump the two cabs together like in the second diagram. Then set all the selector switches to off, center position, then with cab A and selector switch for block one set for A and turn up the throttle, to see if You get any voltage. Repeat for Cab B with the same block. If they both work go on to the next and so forth. Before You even begin this test. Check both variable outputs of both power packs to make sure they are even putting out variable voltage. Hopefully You have a multimeter to do this to test the voltage of the variable DC outputs of the power packs. If You do not have a meter, You can use a 12volt bulb, like You would use for building lighting.
Let us know what You find out. Try to test the power packs with the leads disconnected from the layout first. I'm trying to find out if they work not being connected to the layout and then tripping the internal breakers when they are connected to layout.
Good Luck!
That's what I was saying, the two diagrams are electrically wquivalent, as loong as the black wire is indeed a wire from cab a to cab b and not just cab b connected to the common rail. Frank's second picture is more commonly how it's done, with a short black wire between cab a and cab b at the panel, and then a run out to the common rail side of the layout.
BTW I HATE common rail and have never wired a layout that way, even back in the 4x8 sheet of plywood DC days. Always had TWO wires running to each block, both rails gapped between blocks. It's how my Dad always did it and I just did the same thing with layouts I built. iIt does mean you can't use Atlas components for 2 cab operation, but to me it is easier to understand how it all works because 2 wires = a complete circuit and you just need to make sure each block is a complete circuit. With common rail there tends to not be enough feeds on the common rail side, and one flakey rail joiner is all it takes to kill power to half the layout. The old Atlas plan books used to show that - ONE connection to the common side for a whole 4x8 layout. Guranteed to not run satisfactorly.
You don't need to isolate these turnouts. They are not power routing and DCC friendly.* The exception to this is if you have a reverse loop. Then you need to isolate the feeds on the reverse loop track.
Powering the frog is optional. If it stalls on the frog, then you will need to power it with something like a tortoise or a frog juicer.After reading all the replies, you simply need to get yourself a $5 volt meter down at harbor freight. That's the only way to track this down.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Randy and Frank,
Thanks for the helpful suggestions and sorry again for the name confusion. I think it makes the most sense to first wire the two cabs together and then start wiring black wires to the track. I do have a multi-meter that is far higher quality than the Harbor Freight. It shows a '1' reading whenever I put the two probes on different parts of the track but I do get power from the loco and cabs.
I'll keep all informed of the progress.
A 1 is overload/overrange. What mode are you testing in? Turn one of the cabs to full throttle, and set all the Selectors to that cab. Set the meter on DC Volts range, 20V or higher if it's not autoranging. And test across the rails in each section. Keep consistent as to which rail you touch the + probe to and which rail you touch the - probe to. Polarity should be the same in every block, as well as the voltage.
Continuity testing is not practical, the test leads aren't long enough to reach from the control panel to the furthest reaches of the layout. (unless this is Z scale and the whole thing is in a briefcase) There is a cheater way, that would be to disconnect one power pack and connect those two leads together. Switch all the Selectors to that cab. Now if you check continuity across the rails it should show as having continuity. But do not be in the ohms or continuity mode with power applied to the rails unless you like replacing the fuse in your meter.
I think the problem is there is a connection between the two power packs, but not between them and the track itself. In other words, I don't have any of the black wires going between the track and the wire connecting the power pack. Couuld that be the reason for getting the '1' reading on the track? I plan on making this connection tomorrow and connecting all the feders to the selectors for blocks.
Randy: I set the DC Volts Range to 200 and still get a one on the track. Want me to message you tomorrow with an update?
Fingers crossed it works.
Well not having the common attached to the tracks would certainly keep the locos from moving. Believe you have solved the problem
Wire the common rail wire just like in the second diagram. The black wire is tapped into the common between the two cabs and goes to the common side on the tracks. The black wire is not connected to the Red wire like it may look like...it goes under or over the Red wire...A loop should have been drawn there where they cross, that is not a connection. You can even put the black wire from Cab ''B's'' terminal on the power pack to the common track wire after they are jumpered and not splice into the power pack connection. As far as the reading goes...what scale did You use to measure the voltage out of the variable DC output on the power packs? You should use the closest scale to the maximun output You are trying to measure. I don't know what kind of meter You are using, but if the lowest DC scale is 10, go to the next scale. Some meters are 25, some are 50 and so forth. Some meters when using a higher scale You have to x times the reading that You get, depending on the meter. Like in 10. One would be 1volt, scale 100 would be x times 10 which would be 10 volts. All meters are not the same. Analog/Digital are different. Also You don't measure voltage in the Ohms scale....You'll blow the fuse, in some cases fry the meter.
Yeah that sounds like your problem. BOTH rails need something connected to them. One side, with the insulated joiners, gets connected to the Selectors. The other side gets connected to the common wire between the power packs.
I need to look at this more thoroughly starting tomorrow. The wiring doesn't make sense about why I'm not getting the trains to run.
Thanks all for your help.
I'll jump in, I don't know why it is so confusing. The red wires go to your individual blocks, seperated by the gap in the rails joint, the seperated joints, usually done with a plastic rail joiner, and the black wire goes to the rail that isn't gapped, and uses regular metal joiners, common rail wiring. When you see the red and black wire cross, on your diagram, they are not connected, just crossing over or under each other.
Since both power packs, "cabs", share the un-gapped, common rail, they can be connected together. A train you want to run on track powered by cab "A", you set each individual block on the Atlas selector switch, to cab A. A train on track powered by cab "B", the same, set the selector switch to B. Track you want unpowered, you set the selector switch in the middle position.
Connect your black and red wires just as your diagram shows, with the red wires, going to the track with the rail joints, the plastic rail connectors, and the black wire to various places on the "common rail", the rail that does not have the plastic rail joiners. Remember, where the red and black cross on the diagram, is not a connection. The only connections are to the two power packs, cab A and B, and the track.
What Frank is saying, and from his diagram, shown under yours, is the common rail wire, the back wire can go between both power packs, with a wire joined to that wire, going to various places on the unjointed track. The power packs share the common rail, as the power to your blocks, is controlled from the red wires, that come from the Atlas selector. Your diagram shows a black wire, going to a "buss" that connects at various places on the unjointed track.
Maybe I just added to the confusion, I hope not.
Mike.
My You Tube
kasskaboose I do have a multi-meter that is far higher quality than the Harbor Freight. It shows a '1' reading whenever I put the two probes on different parts of the track but I do get power from the loco and cabs.
I would still like to know what the voltage is on the output side of the variable DC output, on both power packs. With both throttles turned up You shoild get a reading of anywhere from 12 to 18volts give or take. You should then be able to use that same scale You used to measure voltage from power packs to test track voltage. You can put a probe on the common rail which we'll call - neg. and the other probe being +pos. to the number1 block on the selector, with all other selector block set to the middle for off. If You do not get a reading at first, flip the reversing switch on cab ''A'', if You still get no reading or a 1, You have a common rail wire and block rail wire reversed some where. Do the same test on every single block on the selector, but only have that block turned on that You are testing, keeping the others turned off and write down which block that You don't get a voltage reading from. It could be a loose rail joiner on the common rail that is causing the innermost problem.....That's one reason common rail wiring is not reliable, unless every single piece of track on the common rail side has a jumper. If You do that....You might as well go both rails insulated, get rid of the Atlas stuff and put DPDT center off toggles for all Your blocks. I did that back in the late 50's. when I started having trouble with common rail.
It would also be extremely helpful if You could draw a rough sketch of Your full track plan to review, to make sure You don't have any reverse loops causing Your problem....that would create a instant short and nothing will work, which I am also considering what may be happening.
kasskaboose I need to look at this more thoroughly starting tomorrow. The wiring doesn't make sense about why I'm not getting the trains to run. Thanks all for your help.
Anywhere a train runs, there has to be a path from the wheels to the rail with a red wire connected to it, AND a path from the other wheel to the other rail with a black wire connected to it. If there is no black wire connected to the rail, there is no complete circuit.
From power pack to red wire to Selector to red wire to rail in one block. Other rail to black wire to power pack. You need a complete circle.