Club I belonged to way back used a lot of SHinoharas and we had a constant problem adjusting Tortoises when powering the frogs to get that timing right, even with DC power.They do have a nice vbariety of options. I'm using all Peco 83 for my next layout, they have a decent variety of sized now. If I REALLY need something odd I will try hand laying it. I tried making some Fast Tracks before, the crazy thing is the first one came out decent, worked well, but looked slightly sloppy in the point and frog point areas. Every one I did after that, I just couldn;t get a good frog point. Still have the tools and jig, but it's cut for Atlas code 83 rail because I was otherwise using Atlas components.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerThat's not the case with other power routing turnouts.
That's good to know. Not so much for me since I'm not going to change-out some 200 turnouts, but for others, or anyone that asks me. I was aware of the jumpers on the Peco's and that's a good design.
The main reason I used Shinohara at the time was the huge choice of configurations they offered and they had l-o-n-g #10 turnouts that I wanted for main-line crossovers.
Ed
The problem with those was that both point rails were tied together. That's not the case with other power routing turnouts. Peco Electrofrogs come that way but it's easily fiexed with a couple of jumpers, they even have the space cut from the palstic underneath for it. Point rails tied to the adjacent stock rails, frog and rails beyond isolated from rest of turnout, directionally switch power applied to frog and rails down to the gaps, which do not have to be located immediately at the turnout. If you leave a little space you get a dead section on the opposing route which can stop a train before it derails. Hoimemade turnouts using the Fast Tracks method have this same construction (same as a Peco Electrofrog after the jumper mods). The end result is not one stick of dead rail from points to heel and no real need for keep alives.
rrinkerMy how things have changed. It used to be the insulated type was the rare bird.
One of my frustrations with the original "power-routing" Shinohara turnouts was the unreliable contact between the point and stock rail to make the frog "hot" even with that folded bronze tab that was supposed to help conduct power.
So, the solution was to use the auxiliary contacts on a Tortoise or Caboose manual throw with contacts or, on some, I had sub-miniature micro-switches.
If the timing wasn't perfect or if the points would stick you got a short, even if only a split-second, it would cause the DCC breaker to trip. Then all the locomotives would come to a dead stop and had to go through the whole startup sequence thing. No fun.
I know of one fellow that opened every Tortoise he owned and cut the PC traces to shorten the contact time as the turnout motor moved. That helped a little but wasn't a 100% cure.
The newer "All-Live" or "DCC Friendly" if you prefer, are much more forgiving in this regard. I still have a few power routing types but they are on seldom used stub sidings.
Regards, Ed
My how things have changed. It used to be the insulated type was the rare bird. That's why all the old wiring books admonish you to supply power only from the point side of a turnout.
Uphill, both ways, in the snow.
doug57Ed, the pictures were a big help. I learned a lot by looking at how the switches are made.
Glad it worked out for you, Doug.
I went through quite a learning curve myself when I first installed Shinohara/Walthers code 83s. back in 1995. Power routing type were the only kind available from them, then. They have certain advantages but, I have since replaced every one with the insulated frog type and I'm glad I did.
Have Fun, Ed
doug57 Just thought I would let everyone know that I solved my problem with the shorted turnout. I ended up returning the one and bought a Walthers shinohara turnout with insulated frog.
Just thought I would let everyone know that I solved my problem with the shorted turnout. I ended up returning the one and bought a Walthers shinohara turnout with insulated frog.
There was probably nothing wrong with the turnout. It just needed some modifications.
Anyhow, glad to hear that everything is back on track.
Rich
Alton Junction
Just thought I would let everyone know that I solved my problem with the shorted turnout. I ended up returning the one and bought a Walthers shinohara turnout with insulated frog. Everything is back on track. Thanks for all the advise.
Ed, the pictures were a big help. I learned a lot by looking at how the switches are made.
Doug
Easy solution. Put insulating joiners at the exit of the switch - the rails at the opposite end from the points. The rails at the points end will need to be connected to the rails for power through the switch.
doug57Sorry Dave, I was so frustrated I just did not think of the title. Thanks for the advice, Doug.
You probably have a turnout with a powered frog. You probably want a turnout with an insulated frog. Shinohara labels these something like "both for DC and DCC", and their electro frog turnouts have no such wording.
Also, look for little black lines cut horizontally through two rails near the frog. If your turnout has them, then the frogs are insulated. If the shine from the rails has no break, the frogs are powered.
- Douglas
The Shinohara Code 100 #6 is a power routing turnout. Take a look at this link and scroll down to the discussion of th Shinohara Code 100 turnout.
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn/y_dcc_friendly_MG.htm
And, follow Dave's advice and change the title of the thread.
Hi, Doug,
This sounds like the classic "Power-Routing" vs. "All-Live" turnout conundrum.
Does your throwbar between the points look like the top example or the bottom example?
My guess is it is like the one on top with a solid metal bar between the points. This directs the current to the frog, through that bronze strip, and makes the frog "live" but what also happens is that the rails of the opposite "non-selected" route become one continuous circuit, therefore creates a short.
A stub siding doesn't matter since the ends of the siding rails are not connected but the main line IS connected to another switch or electrical feeder farther down the route.
The only cure is to cut an insulating gap somewhere on the rail beyond the frog.
This page may explain it better than I can in words...
https://www.dccwiki.com/DCC_Friendly_Turnout
DCC or not, there are wiring procedures that must be followed if you are using "Power-Routing" turnouts.
Good Luck, Ed
Hi Doug:
Others will be able to answer your question but I'm posting in order to suggest that you make the title of the thread much clearer. How about "Shinohara #6 switch shorting?" With all due respect, we are not mind readers. Ambiguous thread titles will get fewer responses than titles that define your question more clearly.
Please understand that I mean absolutely no offense, and I'm not trying to lecture you. I'm just making a suggestion that I hope will get you more focused responses.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I just finished doing some track rework. I took out 2 standard turnouts and installed a shinohara #6 left hand turnout. When I ran the test engine on the siding it worked fine, but when I switched over to the main line, there is a dead short, everthing woked fine before I installed the new switch. Any ideas on this problem would be greatly appreciated.