Don,
Simple is good. The plan is for the Loksound Select Micro to mount right on top of the motor housing (using foam tape) so your wiring "switchback" would work. Course, it may take a 2-3 switchbacks to allow enough slack to lay the shell on its side.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
You could do either or. Tape/untape, or just tape till they reach the motor housing and leave that a free hanging pigtail. I'm not sure where you plan to place the decoder.I'm probably making it too simple but just take the wire in green (as illustrated below) and tape it at point indicated, then run a length back over the motor, and then fold it back to the decoder hookup point.I use the 2 pin connection tails from micromark. But any would work.http://www.micromark.com/mini-connector-kit-pkg-of-10,8839.htmlORhttp://www.micromark.com/32-pin-micro-connector-set,12332.html
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I could do that, Don, but...a certain amount of wire needs to be untaped so that I can successfully lay the shell on its side, yes? Unless you are talking about taping to wires to initially remove the shell then untaping them to lay the shell onto its side?
Stupid question of the day Tom, but why not tape the wires to the inside shell roof, above where the drive shaft is located? Isn't your speaker mounted to the shell? Or is below the driveline?
Thanks for the input, Randy. I'm leaning towards the idea of notching the shield so that it can remain one piece rather than two. However, if I ended up going with vertical sides and a flat roof, it would allow me to place a speaker(s) on top of the roof (rather than in the roof of the shell); thereby, eliminating all the excess wire needed so that I can lay the shell (with the speaker wires) on its side in order to access either the decoder or the drive train for lubrication.
The sugar cube speakers I ordered would work in either case. The latter would just make for a cleaner installation.
Since it curves inward as it goes up - maybe you cna just notch it a bit at the bottom to provide clearance for the shell brackets, instead of cutting the whole thing in two parts. Even if you did have to cut it into two pieces, that narrow gap would be very difficult for a horizontally oriented wire to slip into under operation.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'm still waiting for my Loksound Select Micro decoder and speakers to arrive from TTE. In the meantime I tried an idea of how to protect the speaker wires from the exposed drive shaft when everything is assemble:
The shield is clear 0.015" PVC, covers everything but the gears in front of the gear tower, and is easily removable for maintenance purposes:
My initial prototype worked great a couple of days ago but the length only went up to the left edge of the washer notch, where there are threaded brackets on each side of the shell. Unfortunately, the full-length shield doesn't clear those brackets. The four brackets are what hold the shell to the base plate.
I may either break the shield up into two separate sections so that there is a clearnace gap for the brackets...or...cut a clearance gap up most of the side of the shield (enough to clear the brackets) but still leave a small "roof" over that portion of the drive shaft - i.e. in the event a speaker wants to slip down in-between.
I like the compressed shield concept because the outward tension helps it to stay in the grooves of the frame. If I went with vertical walls and a cover roof, I'd want to make sure that it didn't move if the locomotive were laid over on it's side. Once the speakers arrive, I think they will dictate what design I end up going with.
As mentioned in my newest thread about converting a NYC M-1 0-10-0 switcher to DCC, I ordered a Loksound Select Micro and two "sugar cube" speakers for my H20-44 last night. I think I have a good spot for one speaker up inside the roof at the front of the nose, as well as idea for how to keep the speaker wires from getting shreaded by the drive shaft when the shell is installed. I'll still need to route all the wires to make it clean looking.
I appeciate all the input and ideas, everyone. This has been/will be an educational project - to say the least.
Dave already mentioned what I was going to say next, after looking at the zoomed in version of the picture. Those long set screws are just ASKING to snag up a wire. I would think NWSL would have something along the lines of a proper allen head grub screw that would sit fairly flush with the universal when tightened down - even if it doesn't really buy any more speaker space, just that it won't be there to grab at wires would make it worthwhile. Even leaving minimal slack in the speaker wires, and using micro connectors to allow the shell to come off, there's going to be some bit of wire that gets pushed down when the shell is put on, and it needs to stay away from anything that can grab it.
Well here's my 2 cents...Okay I'll give ya 5...Inflation is a bear.
Looking at the h20-44 I see two potential areas for speakers.
One is placed below the exhaust on top (assuming proto made these open to the inside)
Two is placing it in an enclosure in the cab. I've done this with my little bachmann 0-6-0T. And if I can fit a speaker cap and decoder in that can you can too.
Now to the whole parallel series thing...4 ohms will output twice the power...But it won't be twice as loud due to how our hearing works.
If a speaker is not marked + - you can usually find the plus terminal as it is marked in red. Not all speakers have the same linear response moving forward as they do backwards. It all depends on how the voice coil and magnet are set up. So polarity is important.
That said for cramped quarters sugar cubes work well. I use a set of micro connectors on mine to make shell installation easier. I also use double sided 3m tape as a gasket. It's thick and conforms to uneven surfaces.
That way I don't have to worry about adhesive gunking up the moving parts of the speaker as I can precisely cut an opening as opposed to a liquid adhesive which spreads anywhere it wants.
That said you have several ways to cancel out the back wave. The back wave is the out of phase sound that everyone is talking about that decreases your sound quality.
1) a basic enclosure.
2) stuffing polyfill or cotton behind the speaker
3) put two speakers in an enclosure facing in the opposite direction.
4) make the body shell your enclosure. Yes there will be air gaps where sound can escape. The longer the distance and the smaller the gap the less difference it will make. The quality of the output sound though is really hard to judge because of how waves compound/reflect/propagate in a complex enclosure and why you have PhD papers studying such effects to try to tune speakers for the best result. I even personally turned a box car into a tuned bass port to get it down to 120 Hz. Long story short...It's a crap shoot.
Now that I wrote a novel don't over think it. Either seal it to the shell or slap it into an enclosure. It should come out okay.
Another advantage of having the excess mass removed from the rotating shaft is to achieve better balance, especially on the higher speed shafting.
Another tool I find indespensable in tuning running gear is the roller test stands available from Bachrus or Bachmann.
http://www.bachrus.com/runningstands.php
I bought two Bachmann sets at a reduced price and they came out to $10/set. The Bachrus are a little more pricy but might be worth it.
The Bachmann ones are very well made and worth a look.
https://www.walthers.com/display-test-stand-rollers-e-z-riders-tm-rolling-w-ball-bearings-for-powered-axles-pkg-4
Again, I searched and found a set of four for around $42.00.
Looks like a FUN project!
Ed
Tom:
tstageThere are also extended set screws on the drive shaft that force you to allow clearance as it rotates
Could those screws be replaced with Allen head set screws? They would be tiny but they would work. The challenge would be finding the right size. NWSL sells metric set screws which I believe have Allen heads, Scroll down a bit:
http://www.nwsl.com/uploads/chap5_web_01-17.pdf
If you are really brave, another alternative is to cut the heads off of the existing set screws and then cut a slot in the remaining screw shaft so they could be tightened with a jeweller's screwdriver. You could cut them short enough that they end up entirely inside the drive shaft female link. Fussy but doable. I think I would use a little Loctite Blue on the set screws because you won't be able to apply as much torque as you can with the bigger screw head.
Regardless of whether you modify the set screws or not, I would consider using some sort of restraint to keep the wires away from the drive shafts. You might be able to use some heat shrink tubing, or you could build 'conduit' out of styrene sheet to restrict the movement of the wires.
As I said, I'm following with interest.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hey Tom:
tstageYou mentioned using two cube speakers - I'm assuming those are wired in parallel?
Randy has already answered your question, but, if you want to learn a bit more about wiring multiple speakers, go to the two links that I posted earlier.
Also, as Randy explained, phase is critical. Unfortunately the leads on most speakers are not marked with + and -. I use the physical location of the contacts on the speakers to keep the phase consistent.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the speakers don't have to be in the same place. You can put them wherever they will fit and just run longer wires between them. Two speakers is not an absolute necessity. One will sound pretty good too.
As far as enclosure size, I use .040" square stock for the sides of the enclosures and .040" flat sheet for the back. It's tiny but it works well.
As far as using epoxy vs silicone to mount the speakers I might be splitting hairs a bit, but the point is to get the enclosure firmly bonded to the shell so the sound is actually resonating from the shell itself. Again however, we are splitting hairs. If you don't have space to glue the speaker enclosures to the shell you will still have sound. You might have to turn the volume up a bit but it will still work. Multiple speakers mounted to the shell is the ideal method, but not your only option. One other possibility might be to mount the speaker(s) on the bottom of the frame instead of inside the shell.
rrinker It shoudl all fit nicely in there, that's a HUGE loco compared to Dave's - or remember Wolfgang's little Grandt Line 23 ton boxcab with sound? --Randy
It shoudl all fit nicely in there, that's a HUGE loco compared to Dave's - or remember Wolfgang's little Grandt Line 23 ton boxcab with sound?
Thanks for your explanations, Randy.
The space in the H20-44 - although bigger than Dave's 23-ton boxcar - is actually deceptively smaller than it looks. A decoder and speaker must be no deeper than the short side of the motor housing because the interior of the shell just clears the long side.
There are also extended set screws on the drive shaft that force you to allow clearance as it rotates and screws coming up through the brass base plate to compete with floor space. Also, one of the interior brackets inside the shell (that line up with the red washers in the earlier photo) is twice as long on one side; thereby restricting the available space above and below the drive shaft even more. I might be able to remove the excess part of the bracket with a file.
So, while a Loksound Select Micro will work on top of the motor, any speakers are going to have to be glued to the interior roof of the shell to make it work. This means having to allow for enough slack in the wire to remove the shell but organized so that when the shell is seated any wires aren't getting shredded by the drive shaft.
Sound would be fun but...it's going to take some thinkin' to make it work.
I think the reason for epoxy is stiffness. There was an item I once came across in the web where someone experimetned with different materials for speaker enclosures. The more dense and stuff, the better - lighter weight materials flex with the sound pressure and become alternate radiating surfaces with lots of distortion. I think his best option was to make an enclosure from lead - very dense so the sound only came out where it was supposed to, with the added benefit that if you had to remove any of the loco's weight to fit the speaker in, this added some of it back. A solid epoxy instead of a flexible caulk, when making the shell the enclosure, would I think help stiffen the shell and keep it from possibly vibrating.
If the speaker is already in a sealed enclosure, I see no benefit to attaching the enclosure to the shell with epoxy.
Since Selects user 4 to 8 ohm speakers, if these are 8 ohm speakers I'd parallel them for 4 ohms. Phase must match or the sounds will cancel each other out. Phase is always important, although theoretically one mosnter speaker and one tiny speaker out of phase might work because the volume of the small one couldn't cancel all of the volume of the large one. Two speakers of equal size out of phase means you will get two equal but opposite sound waves which is not what you want.
Thanks, Dave. You are correct about the Loksound Select Micro. When I was originally looking at a possible sound decoder install my initial thought was to place the decoder vertically under the drive shaft area on one side (where there is some availalble space) and a speaker on the other side. It wasn't until I placed the shell back on that I realized I didn't have the full width of the brass base (1.275") but only the width of the motor housing (0.800"). I thought that pretty much eliminated all the sound decoders I was interested in - i.e. Loksound and TCS.
Now after discovering that a low-profile, motor control-only decoder will fit horizontally on top of the motor housing length-wise, you are right that a Loksound Select Micro will fit there, as well. And having a 4-function decoder would be advantageouos if I feel like being daring and illuminating the colored lantern at the corners. I'll think about tackling that one AFTER the front & rear headlights.
There are two "cube" speaker sizes (so far) that will fit under the drive shift and between the motor housing. There was a 20mm OD speaker that would have just fit but the enclosure, unfortunately, increased the OD to 22mm. Those where just from TCS so I'll have to investigate some of the other manufacture's speaker options.
Two questions for you, Dave:
Thanks for the input, Dave, and for helping me realize that the Select Micro is still an option, if I go with sound.
Hey Tom!
Congratulations on getting it working nicely! I have been following with interest. I don't have any brass locomotives other than the scratchbuilt HOn30 critter in my avatar and its twin, still under construction. I have been very wary of buying brass given the apparent challenges of getting them to run properly. After seeing what you have done, I'm a bit more tempted to take the plunge with a similar engine. If it doesn't work out then at least I can say that I tried.
You have stated a couple of times that you don't think there is space for a sound decoder. I'm going to suggest that you reconsider. The Loksound Select Micro is very thin and tiny. It would easily fit in the space that the TCS M1P decoder occupies, and the so called 'sugar cube' speakers will fit in very tiny spaces even with an enclosure attached.
Here is an example. This is HO scale using a Loksound Select Micro decoder with two (yes - 2!) sugar cube speakers. This thing is 2 1/8" long. Please ignor the fact that the shell is not on straight. It is a friction fit so it doesn't take much to move it out of place:
Here is some information on sugar cube speakers (also called iPhone5 speakers):
http://www.sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/sugarcubespeakernotes.html
http://www.sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/wiringmultispeakers.html
You will be amazed by the sound!
Note that sugar cube speakers must have an enclosure. It doesn't have to be very big but it must be there, and sealed tight to the speaker. I make mine out of .040" styrene.
Also note that the way to get the best sound out of the sugar cube speakers is to glue the enclosure directly to the locomotive shell. Use epoxy, not silicone. Sounds crazy but it works!
Wanted to give a quick update...
I temporarily installed a spare TCS M1P decoder that I had laying around in my H20-44 and got it running. No smoke so it looks like everything is isolated properly.
Not surprising there was occasional hesitation at speed step 005 and < that required a push or two to get it moving again. I decided to break-in the H20-44 on my 27" long programming as I watched Star Wars: The Force Awakens. Needless to say there was a lot of back and forth.
The good news is that, after about 45 minutes of break-in, the H20-44 will now run consistently - without any hesitation - on speed step 001 at ~0.25sMPH. There is some gear noise at higher speeds. Perhaps this will subside some once the gears and grease wear in a bit more. I don't expect it to quiet down considerably given the design and age of the locomotive. Even so, I'm extremely happy with how well it's running.
The decoder is taped to the top of the motor housing:
The TCS M1s have a low profile. So, I could leave it in that location and still have enough headroom inside for the shell to seat properly. To finish the installation I'll either use the above decoder with the 8-pin plug trimmed off, or get another TCS M1 with longer wires and no 8-pin plug.
Next on the agenda is to add front & rear LED headlights. I'll probably go with 3mm warm LEDs but may opt for the SMT LEDs that I recently used for the front headlight installation in my Atlas S-2 switcher. After that I'll have to decide how much modication I want to undertake to model it after a specific NYC H20-44.
Sound would be fun to add but the current decoder options from TCS & Loksound are bigger than the limited amount of space that I have inside the shell. Converting it to DCC was the important first step.
The picture shows a gear tower very similar to the Hobbytown tower. Hobbytowns aren't exactly quiet, but they're not incredibly noisy, either. To me, anyway.
I'm working on a couple of Hobbytown powered switchers. I intend to add sound partly to minimize any gear noise. And I will definitely be using "keep-alive", as it's only 4 wheel pickup. Which is what I think the subject model is.
One of the shells is cast metal (Varney). The other is plastic (P2K). I do wonder if the plastic will be noisier. It probably doesn't matter, because the way I'm setting it up, the inside walls of both shells will be lined with about 1/16" thick lead sheet. Which will likely damp a lot of noise, anyway. I suppose one could do the same thing for a brass shell.
Thanks for confirming that, Randy. I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything. I'll be sure to post some pics when I finally convert it to DCC.
Yup. This loco just has a wire going straight from the pickup to the motor instead of a wire from the pickup to a board, and another wire from the board to the motor. Electrically it's the same, so just splice into the wires, or you can desolder the wires from the screws and solder the red and black decoder wires in their place and connect the orange and grey to the existing wires. Or maybe just go all in - unsolder the existing wires from both ends (should be soldered to the motor tabs - if not, ignore the rest of this) and solder the red and black decoder wires to the pickup screws, and solder the orange and grey right to the motor. No extra wires or splices to worry about.
Okay, Ed & Randy...I'm just double-checking this because I've never hardwired a decoder into a locomotive that didn't have separate wires for conveniently hooking the track power and motor wires to the decoder.
At present there are only two motor wires: One is attached to the bolster screw/track pickup at one end and the other wire is attached to the bolster screw/track pickup at the other end. In order to hardwire this to a decoder I need to:
Do I have that correct? Thanks!
rrinker I'm not so sure the noise is generated just because the gear is exposed,
My only point is that it is difficult to keep lubricant on an exposed gear, especially one that rotates at motor-shaft speed, and not being able to keep a "supply" of grease on the gear, as you can in an encased gear housing, eventually the lube will be slung off and more noise generated.
Admittedly, even some enclosed gearboxes are noisy. I actually like the way the old Life-Like E units sounded. They were heavy and the gearing actually made them sound—almost—like an EMD!
I'm not so sure the noise is generated just because the gear is exposed, but rather it is only supported at one end in the tower, the other end, since it connects to the universal jointed shaft, pretty much is free to flap in the breeze, which is surely will because NO ONE ever took the time to perfectly balance the shafts or the cups (if it's even possible). What you get is vibration with constantly is varying the mesh of that small gear and I suspect over time ovals out the whole in the tower that mounts the other end of the gear's shaft, which just makes it worse - and keep getting worse. I'm thinking the whole thing could be dramatically improved by bending a piece of brass 90 degrees and drilling a hole through it and adding a bushing for the motor side of that little gear's shaft, with the other end screwed to the top of the tower. I may try something like this on mine when I fix the drive, it's something I can do with the tools I have.
tstageI'll be curious to find out how quiet it is. I'm going to guess that the drivetrain is going to be the noisier of the two.
That may be your deciding factor on weather to install sound or not
I have a 1961 vintage LMB NYC H10 I'm presently working on and the drive-train is mostly open gearing. In order to quiet the gears down I have to find just the right viscosity of thick oil or grease that will do the job but not get slung all over the inside of the engine.
In your case the motor shaft itself has an open gear and that little gear is going to turn at motor speed. That may prove a challenge. You might want to provide a fabricated styrene "housing" around those gears, even as a shield of sorts, to help keep those fine decoder wires from getting chewed up.
Correct on the Kapton tape, just to add a little insurance. With the motor truly isolated you won't risk toasting the decoder but I find some brass engines "fussy" when it comes to preventing shorts and any path you can easily eliminate should be considered.
Keep us posted on your progress with this gem!
Regards, Ed
rrinker You should be good to go. I'm not sure what motors they used, but that one must be a newer model, looking at older issues of MR when Alco Models was still in business, they often had the typical open frame motors which typically are the type to ground one brush wire to the motor frame and generally only have 1 pickup wire (the frame of the motor and loco chassis is the other side).
You should be good to go. I'm not sure what motors they used, but that one must be a newer model, looking at older issues of MR when Alco Models was still in business, they often had the typical open frame motors which typically are the type to ground one brush wire to the motor frame and generally only have 1 pickup wire (the frame of the motor and loco chassis is the other side).
The motor that came with the H20-44 is a 12V Taneda can motor and it does look newer, Randy. I'll be curious to find out how quiet it is. I'm going to guess that the drivetrain is going to be the noisier of the two.
Another forum member, Tom (ACY), said that the gears on these units were prone to cracking. As a backup plan I think I'll look at what NWSL has to offer on replacement gears.
(you know I love RS3s, right?)...
Really...???...
gmpullman tstage Is is logical to say that the brushes are sufficiently isolated from the frame? Hi, Tom I would agree with you that the motor brushes themselves are isolated from the frame and that method you show is pretty common among brass manufacturers for collecting current from each rail, thus each truck is "hot" to the corresponding rail and only a pair of wheels on each truck are insulated at the axles. There may be fiber "thrust" washers at the end of the axle at the insulated side as well to prevent the insulated wheel from touching the side frame. In its simplest form you could place the black and red wires to each bolster screw and the orange and gray wires to each motor lead and you're done. To be sure, remove the wires at the bolster screws, power the motor with a 6-to-9 volt DC source then check for voltage between each motor terminal and any metal on the frame/trucks.
tstage Is is logical to say that the brushes are sufficiently isolated from the frame?
Hi, Tom
I would agree with you that the motor brushes themselves are isolated from the frame and that method you show is pretty common among brass manufacturers for collecting current from each rail, thus each truck is "hot" to the corresponding rail and only a pair of wheels on each truck are insulated at the axles. There may be fiber "thrust" washers at the end of the axle at the insulated side as well to prevent the insulated wheel from touching the side frame.
In its simplest form you could place the black and red wires to each bolster screw and the orange and gray wires to each motor lead and you're done.
To be sure, remove the wires at the bolster screws, power the motor with a 6-to-9 volt DC source then check for voltage between each motor terminal and any metal on the frame/trucks.
Good suggestion, Ed. I had originally planned on bringing one of my MRC Railpower power packs with me to PA to test-run the H20-44 on DC when it arrived in the mail but I forgot to pack it. For a quick 'n dirty I guess I could try powering it with a 9V battery?
This engine is a good candidate for a keep-alive capacitor, too, since you only have a total of four wheels collecting current. I might suggest placing strips of Kapton tape on the bottom-side of the frame, above the truck side frames, to help prevent any short-circuits in the event of a derailment. Have fun with your new H20-44! Ed
This engine is a good candidate for a keep-alive capacitor, too, since you only have a total of four wheels collecting current.
I might suggest placing strips of Kapton tape on the bottom-side of the frame, above the truck side frames, to help prevent any short-circuits in the event of a derailment.
Have fun with your new H20-44!
I am contemplating a keep-alive module, as well as whether I want to go sound or non-sound DCC. While there seems to be room inside the shell - especially under the driveshaft areas - the motor wires (on the base floor) and clearance for the protruding set screws on the universal coupler housing reduce that space (above and below) somewhat. That would limit using certain speakers and KA modules.
I've looked at the dimensions for one of the newer TCS Wow! decoders but it's too long for the space. Now that I have a Lokprogramer, a Loksound Select/V4.0 (micro) might be a wise choice.
On the Kapton tape suggestion, Ed: In the event of a derailment and the truck does touch the frame, wouldn't the isolated motor brushes keep the decoder from being harmed anyhow? Or, is your suggestion a backup/fail-safe plan - just in case?
As it happens, my one and only brass model is an Alco Models product as well - but a namesake Alco RS3 (you know I love RS3s, right?). Someone actually had already replaced the stock motor with a Sagami can motor AND it had a DCC decoder in it (really ancient Digitrax one - installed exactly how you SHOULDN'T install a decoder - a ton of sticky-tack holding it to the shell). The entire drive train was reworked with what looks like a scrapyard special - whatever parts were on hand, some Athearn universals, some other brand of dogbon on the other end in an effort to give some lateral movement, etc. The short hood end was just unworkable, there was no lateral play at all so if the truck tipped up or down at ALL (I had no grades on my layout) it would bind. My temp fix for that was going back to the old RC fuel line method of making a drive shaft, so it runs now but still needs cleaning up. Plus taking it apart dinged the paint so I need to either touch it up or just do a full repaint. Someone did go to the effort of adding the steam loco type markers on the corners which is a proper detail for Reading. I would just do a paint touchup except the decals also have some issues with lots of air bubbles under them, so it may be better to just strip it completely and repaint.