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frog juicing

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  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: Chi-Town
  • 7,712 posts
Posted by zstripe on Tuesday, October 4, 2016 12:37 AM

You need a SPDT switch to power the frogs...not a DPDT. Three legs, not six (6).

You use a DPDT if You want control panel/signal position lights at turnouts. Caboose Ind. Ground throws with contacts are SPDT.

The Atlas #200 Snap Relay mounts under the table. I use them, along with under-table switch machines for all powered turnouts, which are #6 and #8 Customline Atlas. All #4 turnouts are thrown with ground-throws, with a SPDT slide switch connected to throwbar, to power frogs......Tortoise's and the like were not invented yet! The latter would have been easier to use...but such is life!

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

  • Member since
    April 2002
  • 921 posts
Posted by dante on Monday, October 3, 2016 10:50 PM

nscsx

Hey,

thanks to all who replied to my post. I will just solder the wire to the frog and have it in place; just in case I need it later. I DID look at the frog juicer. I liked how it would move the postion of your points if the loco was coming in with the points thrown wrong (that is really nice!) But it will only work with DCC.

 

I believe you misunderstand the juicer: it does not move the points, it powers the frog, detects a short and immediately changes polarity of the frog as necessary.

Dante

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • 80 posts
Posted by nscsx on Monday, October 3, 2016 7:49 AM

Hey,

thanks to all who replied to my post. I will just solder the wire to the frog and have it in place; just in case I need it later. I DID look at the frog juicer. I liked how it would move the postion of your points if the loco was coming in with the points thrown wrong (that is really nice!) But it will only work with DCC.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Bedford, MA, USA
  • 21,483 posts
Posted by MisterBeasley on Sunday, October 2, 2016 10:53 PM

BigDaddy
The gold standard is to power the frogs, but you may not have a problem, depending on your locos, with unpowered frogs in DC or DCC.

That's a good point.  If you're running short engines, particularly 2-axle industrial switches and trolleys, you'll find powered frogs essential.  If you're running longer steamers with lots of wheels providing power from the rails, the small dead spot of a frog matters much less.

Also, DCC tends to be more sensitive to dead spots, as the electronics will reset where a DC engine would coast through.

As long as you've got the wire from the frog in place, it will be easy to power the frog later if you need to.

DCC has another option - the Frog Juicer from Tam Valley.  A frog juicer simply hooks to your track bus and will power up to 6 frogs independently.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • From: Shenandoah Valley
  • 9,094 posts
Posted by BigDaddy on Sunday, October 2, 2016 10:16 PM

nscsx
mine are the custom line Atlas turnouts. The wire that goes through the subroadbed...where does that hook into the bus wire?

Then, the frogs can be powered.  However what people are trying to say is that the polarity of the frog must change, depending on how the turnout is thrown.  Therefore frog power cannot come directly from only one of the bus wires.

There has to be a switch between the frog and the bus wires.  It can be a ground throw with contacts, a tortise switch machine, a Blue Point turnout control, an Atlas relay or a DPDT switch installed somewhere.

The gold standard is to power the frogs, but you may not have a problem, depending on your locos, with unpowered frogs in DC or DCC.  I have wires soldered to my frogs, but not powered.  So far, my GE 45 tonner doesn't care (DC or DCC).  I am close to having sound installed in a loco, so we will see if I need to power the frogs or install some sort of current keeper.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • 80 posts
Posted by nscsx on Sunday, October 2, 2016 8:19 PM

mine are the custom line Atlas turnouts. The wire that goes through the subroadbed...where does that hook into the bus wire?

 

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Bedford, MA, USA
  • 21,483 posts
Posted by MisterBeasley on Sunday, October 2, 2016 8:04 PM

Atlas "snap switches" have plastic frogs that can not be powered.  The "custom line" turnouts can be powered.  The important thing is to attach the wire to the frog before you fasten the turnout down, and drop the wire thorough the subroadbed so that it's accessible from below.

The standard Atlas above-table machines can not drive frogs.  Atlas makes a "Snap-Relay" that can be connected in parallel with the machine to do this, or you can buy a latching relay from an electronics place to do the same thing.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • 80 posts
Posted by nscsx on Sunday, October 2, 2016 7:13 PM

well I know that the Caboose Industries manual switchers have a option for one with the "contacts" meaning that it has the DPDT. I am not sure if the Atlas switch machine has this. I may just use the Caboose Industies for all of the turnouts

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Sunday, October 2, 2016 6:27 PM

The key thing to remember is that your frog will have to be 'juiced' in accordance with the route the throwbar and points are aligning for through traffic.  If the points are lined for the straight, or through, route, the frog should be juiced with the same polarity/phase as the curved stock rail and its nested straight point and closure rail.   If the diverging route is lined, the frog should have the same polarity as the curved point and closure rail and the straight stock rail with which they are connected or nested.  What this means, practically, is that you need some kind of switch mechanism, usually the equivalent of a DPDT, or double pole, double throw switch.  Some switch tenders or switch machines provide for this change of polarity.  I know the Turtle does, there must be others (I switch manually, so never even held a switch machine of any kind in my hands except for the snap ones from EZ-Track).

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • 80 posts
frog juicing
Posted by nscsx on Sunday, October 2, 2016 5:54 PM
I have a DC layout that I am constructing, hoping one day I will convert the powere supply and locos to DCC. I want to power the frogs before I nail down the tunouts to the roadbed. I have the bus bar kit and little brass screws (frow Atlas) for powering the frogs...my questions are: how will this hook into the rest of the wirring underneath the table. I know I will have two main bus wires and feeders coming down from the track every 10 inches or so. I will be using the Caboose Industries ground throws (haven't decided on the one with the contacts or the ones without yet?) and on other turnouts I will use the powered Atlas switch machines (the ones that attatch onto the rail ties at the turnout). I have a hard time with wiring and electricity. Just remember though; I will be using DC power source for now. 

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