Frankly, the only time I have power issues is on the club layout with the bridge sections between modules, the joiners are the only power source and everyone runs at least doubleheaders with diesels because one unit WILL stall, unless it has a keep alive cap. None of my locos have keep alives, and they don't stall on my home layout.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Arto rrinker Table thumping was an ART back in the day. When all I had were train set quality locos that picked up (most of the time) with just 2 wheels on each truck, and the track was all brass, I quickly became an expert at exactly where and how hard to thump the layout to restart a stalled loco. If anything, poor pickup caused MORE issues with DC, because running at reasonable speeds meant far less voltage on the rails than the steady state DCC voltage. --Randy I disagree. I never had to thump anything, on the same layout, with old worn out track and inadequate wiring on a 30+ year old layout with DC. Nor did I have to maintain everything squeaky clean in order to just turn it on and run trains. And therein lies the problem with DCC. Surely, by now, in this day and age, components can be designed that can overcome the ridiculous level cleanliness and maintenance required for consistently reliable DCC operation.
rrinker Table thumping was an ART back in the day. When all I had were train set quality locos that picked up (most of the time) with just 2 wheels on each truck, and the track was all brass, I quickly became an expert at exactly where and how hard to thump the layout to restart a stalled loco. If anything, poor pickup caused MORE issues with DC, because running at reasonable speeds meant far less voltage on the rails than the steady state DCC voltage. --Randy
Table thumping was an ART back in the day. When all I had were train set quality locos that picked up (most of the time) with just 2 wheels on each truck, and the track was all brass, I quickly became an expert at exactly where and how hard to thump the layout to restart a stalled loco.
If anything, poor pickup caused MORE issues with DC, because running at reasonable speeds meant far less voltage on the rails than the steady state DCC voltage.
I disagree. I never had to thump anything, on the same layout, with old worn out track and inadequate wiring on a 30+ year old layout with DC. Nor did I have to maintain everything squeaky clean in order to just turn it on and run trains. And therein lies the problem with DCC. Surely, by now, in this day and age, components can be designed that can overcome the ridiculous level cleanliness and maintenance required for consistently reliable DCC operation.
Modeling the NYC Webster branch ca. 1963 in S Scale
I've had good luck with Excelle conductive oils, available from Walthers:
https://www.walthers.com/excelle-lubricants
They come in various viscosities, so "pick your poison" as the expression goes...
selector ..or, as I have done for a decade now, use Dexron III Mercon ATF. It's an excellent lubricant, paint safe, plastics safe.... I have been using the last couple of tablespoons left in a plastic bottle probably 20 years old now.
..or, as I have done for a decade now, use Dexron III Mercon ATF. It's an excellent lubricant, paint safe, plastics safe.... I have been using the last couple of tablespoons left in a plastic bottle probably 20 years old now.
Ditto as in my previous post
tstage Or, you can spend even less for Labelle products, which are made specifically for model railroading and the hobby industry. Tom
Or, you can spend even less for Labelle products, which are made specifically for model railroading and the hobby industry.
Tom
That's what I've used also. It's also contributing to the problem. The LaBelle oils are NOT electrically enhancing, they don't improve conductivity or prevent future oxidation as much as products like DeOxit do. Since DCC is so sensitive to these issues it's best to use something that actually improves performance IMO.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
This is the kind of lubricant that should be used for DCC locomotive bearings or any electrical contact areas that require lubrication.
http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.1703/.f?sc=2&category=188
http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/.f
There are several products they make in addition to this such as ProGold GX. They can be kind of pricey but you can get it for much less at places like Guitar Center (have to order) or Amazon or Ebay.
I've used this for decades on high-end audio equipment and it works like a charm. It actually improves audio quality. And it worked like a charm on the aforemetioned loco. It's running with no connectivity issues now.
This is the oldest of the 4 locos in this consist and it was purchased used. The previous owner apparently used too much (conventional) oil which eventually, as it got dirty, contributed substantially to several issues I've had with it. Now (so far ~ knock-on-wood) it's running solo, or in consist, pulling 30+ car train over hilly curved terrain at the slowest speeds, or at speed without any stuttering or connectivity issues.
Thousands of people run DCC with far fewer problems than you have described -- or it wouldn't be as popular as it is. I've been able to run DCC in N scale (with a smaller wheel contact area) in a garage with fewer problems than you have described.
You have had quite a run of bad luck, it appears.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama Arto Furthermore, my point is that this kind of, and frequency of maintenance was never required with DC. DCC has nothing to do with poorly designed contacts on trucks. Those would be a problem with DC, too.
Arto Furthermore, my point is that this kind of, and frequency of maintenance was never required with DC.
DCC has nothing to do with poorly designed contacts on trucks. Those would be a problem with DC, too.
Yeah, well read my post again. I said I did not have to do this kind and as much maintenance as I did with DC, with the same locomotive, on 30+ year old track with sub-grade (read: inadequate) wiring.
ArtoFurthermore, my point is that this kind of, and frequency of maintenance was never required with DC.
ALL locos need periodic maintenance like that. Old grease gets hard, and grease and oils attract dirst which must be periosically cleaned. Any surface involved in the transfer of power from the rails to the electronics needs to be kept clean so that means cleaning wheels and then, depending on how the loco is made, either pickup wipers and the part of the wheel or axle the rub on, or bushings at the ends of the axles, or some other system.
It's not good to run bearings dry. The oil must be used sparingly though, the tinest of needlepoint drops is all that is needed. Too much and it runs down on the wheels and track and only makes a mess. Yes, eventually it will start attracting dirst, and then it's time to run through the shops again.
Most all Broadway locos follow similar design, as do most other brands. Power transfer through axle bushings is a tried and true method, going back at least to the early Athearn Blue Box locos and widely copied. Axle wipers on trucks, especially on steam loco tenders, is common across pretty much every brand as well. Rivarossi has used it for years, Bachmann too, and Broadway.
Had a talk with BLI tech support. It's definitely a dirty axle/bearing issue. He said when they get these in for repair they clean the bearing holes in the copper plate and axle contacts with a electrical enhancement lubricant. He also mentioned cold solder joints that sometimes need a touch up.
That was certainly the case here. Two wires, one from each truck broke off very easily upon disassembly. I cleaned all the old oil off and used Deoxit Gold, similar I'm sure, to what Dave recommended. I've used this stuff for years on my audio equipment. Looks like I've found a new use for it.
I put a little train grease on the worm gears, gave the wheels another cleaning, and everything seems to work fine so far. The motion is still not as smooth as I would expect but I'm hoping after the grease works its way around all the gears this will smooth out with some time.
This is quite a bit of maintenance to get these locos back up to par. OTOH I guess that might be one of the reasons BLI discontinued Blueline. I sure hope all the Paragon2 locos I have don't require the same maintenance as that will certainly add to my "pain" list for DCC.
My best recommendation is to NOT lubricate the axles on these locomotives with conventional oils.
Well, the colder temperature/humidity causing contraction of the parts to make a good electrical connection wasn't the issue.
Some clarification of my initial post: Four locos involved. Three are C30-7 and one SD40-2. The SD40-2 was purchased new. After restesting all four locos individually and under different conditions/parts of the layout, the SD40-2 appears to be fine. But all three GE C30-7 have connectivity issues at slow speed.
I disassembled more of one them. The "leaf" (spring?) I mentioned is actually a copper bar that slides onto the back (inside) of the plastic truck clasp. The motor wire(s) are soldered to this copper bar which is also the bearing for all three axles.
I guess I'm wondering if lubrication such as regular good ol' LaBelle 107 can eventually cause electrical issues as it eventually gets a little dirty in the bearing holes and on the axles.
Arto:
I think you might be on the right track (pardon the pun) when you talk about the power pickups being the problem. My first action would be to clean all the contacts. Using an electrically conductive lubrication like CRC 2-26 might help too.
http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=02004
I doubt that the temperature would have much to do with the problem because the parts are so small. The amount of expansion or contraction would be extremely small. I could be wrong, but in any case, putting a little more tension on the contacts might help. Note that you don't want to overdo the tension. Too much tension could add some drag to the mechanism.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Here's an additional thought regarding the above issue:
Upon close inspection after partial disassembly of the rear truck I notice that there seems to be a little too much play between some of the axles and the the bearings. The bearings have a copper "leaf" (spring?) that performs the electrical connection from the wheel/axle to the central wire for all three axles. It's as if there's not quite enough "pressure" and/or the axle doens't fit closely enough all the time to make an electrical connection.
I'm wondering if this is a climate/temperature issue. The layout is in the lower level of my home, partially below grade. Ever since we had the new "energy efficient" HVAC installed, its been quite a bit colder downstairs during the summer. The AC fan doesn't run as fast (supposedly to remove more humidity) but the slower fan speed also doesn't pull the denser heavier cold air out of the lower level as well. It's actually much warmer down there in the winter than in the summer.
I didn't have these kinds of issues during the winter. I'm wondering if it's cold enough down there now to cause the loco parts to contract just enough so that certain components are making intermitent contact.
Just for kicks I've taken the loco thats been giving me the most trouble and put it in the garage where its hot & humid. After a day in there I'll try this again and see what happens.
I've been using four BLI Blueline locos on the same train for months. Just recently they have started giving me trouble. At the very slowest speeds (1 to 4%) any one of them will stall (no power). After a second or two it may come back on. A lite whack of the benchwork is all that is needed to make connectivity again, and then stop. Touching one of the trucks slightly produces the same result. They also are not running as smoothly (somewhat jerky, even at speed soemtimes) (running solo). Sometimes, when this intermitent contact occurs, the horn or bell may sound, or the engine sound level changes on it's own.
I've added lubrication to through the worm gear housing (LaBelle107). And I removed the worm gear housing on the rear truck just to check for any resistance or uneven motion manually turn the wheels and motor and I can't detect any.
One of the four was purchased brand new. They all do the same thing. They worked fine for a few months. And yes, the wheels and track are immaculate clean.
The best I can tell is that this has something to do with how the wheels/trucks are running/riding on the track. The slightest touch of the truck will get power to the loco.