I have a Genesis Big Boy with DCC/Sound (Tsunami factory system) and a Rivarossi (newer version with can motor) that I installed a Tsunami sound decoder in myself a couple of years ago. Both are suddenly exhibiting the same problems: they run a while and then stop and restart (most of the time) and during this time the display on my Digitrax Zephyr starts flickering and showing broken digits. The Athearn BB is about a year old and has always run great. The Rivarossi BB ran great for the past 2 years until about 2 months ago when it just went dead. I found a loose pickup wire on the loco and resoldered it the other day. Since then it has behaved like the Athearn one?
I have never taken the Athearn BB apart so I don't know how difficult it is or if that is an issue now. Any suggestions on what might be causing both locos to do the same thing. None of my other locos have this problem.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Bob,
Have you tried or do you have any other locomotives with Tsunami sound decoders? It would be worth trying, if you do.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
What happens with other locomotives? The LCD panel should not flicker - Maybe a trip to Florida for that Zephyr is in order...
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Tom and Jim; I have another loco (Athearn Genisis Challenger) with a Tsunami decoder but haven't run it lately. None of my other locos do this. I did notice this morning that the Rivarossi BB stalled at a turnout but then ran a few feet and stopped again and again. It did this several times and I finally parked it with the Athearn BB. Sometimes it will run around the layout without a problem for several times. It almost seems a random occurance. If other locos did this I would look at the Zephyr as a possible source, but all my other locos run fine.
It may be an intermittant short and the display is trying to switch to the walking 0's and then back to displaying the active address. When the digit display flickers like that, does the track power LED also flicker?
Unless you have consists stored, you might want to consider doing an OpSw 39 reset on the Zephyr, just because. Clearing everything out can;t hurt, and it could be some odd issue with the slots in use or maybe the same loco selected twice, which the OpSw 29 reset will clear out.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
I did an OpSw 39 and OpSw 36 on both the Zephyr and the DT402D throttle and it didn't help anything.
I will have to go back and watch for the track power LED to see if it flickers too. What would this indicate should it happen?
If the power LED flickers whent he display goes nuts, it would indicate there is a short or overload of some sort. Odd that it would only be those locos from different manufacturers, but what about WHERE it happens on the track? Is it the same spot, or the same type of spot, like only on left hand curves or only on a turnout? Cound be an issue with wheels working their way out of gauge, or insulation on the turnout frog wearing, that sort of thing, that may not be an issue for a smaller loco. Or even something wearing or moved inside the locos, despite being made by different people they are internally rather similar in that the two engines both swivel and perhaps paint has worn off somewhere such that a hoot part of the chassis touches the other side of the power path, but intermittently and only for fractsions of a second, so it never fully trips the Zephyr's breaker, by the time it starts to trip, the short clears - and it just repeats.
Watching the loco (Athearn BB) again I noticed that the power LED did flicker some of the time, but other times it didn't as the engine recovered quickly and resumed running (which is what it does most of the time). I was running a couple of other locos yesterday and noticed that one of them was having the same effect on the display with flickering digit segments, but it didn't stop running. I am begining to think maybe it is the Zephyr. I do have about 30 locos on the layout that are just sitting and some have the sound on (can't seem to find the way to keep them silent when not being addressed) and thought I may be overloading the Zephyr, but it hasn't shown that in the past. In the mean time I am grounding the Big Boys and may start removing the other locos one at a time to see if that makes any difference. I am not an electrical genius or engineer but know just enough to keep me in trouble, so some of these issues just baffle me at times.
I had been considering upgrading my system with the new Zephyr Xtra (3.0 amp) unit and maybe it is time to try it. Also considered the DB150 booster as a main power unit and make the Zephyr a throttle. Not sure at this point, but I keep thinking I need more amps for my layout.
Or you could just add power toggles to shut down the ones parked on engine house tracks. If you only ever run a couple at a time max, the Zephyr should have plenty of power, but to keep 30 or so powered up plus have a couple running, it might be pushing it. It could also be the power supply for the Zephyr sagging under load, unfortunately because of the plug in nature of the power supply this is not easy to check, as there's no easy way to connect a voltmeter and see if the voltage is dropping - low input voltage would make the Zephyr behave oddly too.
It should be easy enough to test, if you remove a bunch of the other locos and then run a Big Boy, if it's a load issue it should now be fine.
If you are just at the threshold of Zephyr capacity, upgrading to the Xtra and the extra 1/2 amp of power might be just enough to keep it going, plus you get the ability to run 22 instead of 12 locos. If it's way off, a DB150 with the current Zephyr as the command station would keep you at a 12 train limit but give you 5 amps to the track instead of 2.5. That was my setup on my last layout, with the Zephyr's track output running my stationary decoders. I didn;t really need the extra power at the stage I got the layout to, but I wanted a DT402 throttle to get all 29 functions and I got a great deal on a complete SEB Xtra set - about the price of the throttle alone. Plus for my new basement size layout, I'll need that DB150 and more.
I have about 16 tracks around the turntable and they are all on toggles so there is no power issue there, but I have at least 15 other locos on various tracks in the yard and on sidings that are always on, plus the 1 or 2 running. I never actually run more than 3 locos at a time; I have a DT402D throttle and a UT4? basic throttle in addition to the Zephyr.
I have a Digitrax 5 amp power supply that I bought a few years ago when I thought I could just use it in place of the PS14? Of course now that I know more about DCC I realize I would have to have a 5 amp booster to use it! I am leaning towards going with the DB150 since I have the ps and can then use the Zephyr for a throttle running off the booster (I think?).
I am still going to start removing locos and see if that clears things up and confirms what I need (want!) to do.
Thanks for all your input on this. I would be lost without this forum and the knowledgable people on it such as yourself.
PS: Having to raise a 6 year old great grandson who loves trains (and not in your ususal 'kid' scenario!) I have time issues so sometimes it takes longer to try things out than I would normally take.
No, adding a 5 amp supply to feed the Zephyr would not change the Zephyr's output capacity, the internal breaker would still trip at 2.5 volts. Not likely the 5 amps supply ahs the right plug, unless it's the new one they sell which is really just a universal laptop power supply, which comes with an assortment of plugs (which you cut off to use with a DB150 or DCS100).
Now, if your original Zephyr power supply is failing, it might be worthwhile to test by swapping them. If it works fine, the Zephyr's power supply is probably just about had it. If it still has the same problem, then you are propbably runnign right at the Zephyr's limit and those locos happen to peak the current draw just over the threshold. Also testable by removing some fo the other locos, the ones that aren't on switch tracks - or lighted cars if you have any, those are generally worse than a loco sitting idle with power. If that works, then adding the DB150 would probably be the ticket. If it still acts up even with fewer locos sitting powered up, thn maybe there is an issue with the Zephyr itself. The repair cost is modest, so I'd get it fixed, but if you also get a DB150 it can run in command station mode using your other throttles to run trains until the Zephyr is repaired and returned.
If you do get a DB150, I would recommend at least a double section circuit breaker like a PSX-2 to break the layout into two pieces, each set to trip the breaker at less than 5 amps, 5 amps is enough to cause damage fairly quickly in a short situation. 5 amps at the DB150's 15 volts is 75 watts, significant heat. A reduced limit of say 2.5 amps is 37.5 watts - it will still get hot, but take longer to melt plastic. In contrast, the Zephyr's 12V output at 2.5 amps is 30 watts.
Your trains will run fast with the DB150 in teh HO setting, because it's 15V to teh rails, although you can put it in the N scale setting and it will be close to the Zephyr's output. I dont run passenger trains or anything that needs to go fast so I ran mine on the N scale setting.
I am beginning to realize that I may have more of a power drain than I thought. I did a count yesterday and actually have 16 locos sitting on various tracks, with power, and at least 8-10 lighted passenger cars. Today I removed about 6-7 locos and the Zephyr still shows some flickering but the track power light remains steady on. I will remove all of the passenger cars and retest.
On the 5 amp power supply I have, I didn't mean to use it to power the Zephyr but that I would have it to supply the DB150 should I get it. I didn't mean to confuse anyone with that statement; I' m confused enought myself!
If I get the DB150 and the PSX2, does it maatter where I break the layout up into 2 pieces? The concentration of rolling stock/engines is in the yard area, so that may be a good separation point. I would then use the Zephyr as a throttle only and get it repaired if needed. I hope this is a good plan, though a little more complex than I was looking for.
OK, that makes more sense. If you arleady have the 5 amp suply that's one less cost to getting the DB150.
That makes sense to break it up. You CAN just run the whole thing as oen block, without an external breaker, the DB150 shuts down pretty quickly in the event of a short, so as long as your wiring is robust (do the quarter test EVERYWHERE), it will probbaly be OK, it's not liek that MRC booster than Cuda Ken used which melted a bunch of stuff because it never shut down properly. However, best practices is to break it up with the extra breakers. The rest of the plan is sound, it's highly unlikely that if anythign is wrong with the Zephyr, it's in the throttle part. So that should remain fully functional even if the Zephyr has issues with the power outputs. The command station functionality should also be workign fine, so you can retain the program track with readback and make the DB150 a booster only. Again, that's exactly how I was using my Zephyr and DB150.
Thanks for the confirmation. I think I will go ahead with the DB150.
Have you cleaned the wheels and track lately?
I did clean track and wheels. I am getting some flickering of the Zephyr display with other locos now as well, but it doesn't shut the system down momentarily like it did with the Big Boys.
Ordered the DB150 and will have it next week. I will update on the results when I get it up and running.
I received the DB150 today and installed it as follows:
the PS515 power supply is wired to the two POWER IN terminals on the DB150 and the RAIL A and B are wired to the main buss on the layout. I connected a loconet cable to the DB150. I disconnected the wires to the Zephyr Track A and B. I placed a jumper wire on the DB150 from GND to CONFIG A per Randy's suggestion. Everything powered up and ran fine EXCEPT I don't have any throttle on the Zephyr. I had the loconet cables on the Zephyr going to two UP5 terminals on the layout and they in turn went to others in the chain. I have tried connecting the loconet cables from the DB150 to the Zephyr and then on to the others in the chain. Nothing works as far as getting the Zephyr to function as a throttle. The Zephyr has it's power supply connected as it was and the loconet cable. All other wires have been removed. What am I doing wrong? The loconet chain is fed from the DB150 in two directions as it sits in the middle of the chain. This is how the Zephyr was set up when I used it as the main system. I added the DB150 next to the Zephyr and just connected them with the loconet cables, but this seems to short the system. It only works when the Zephyr is not in the chain?
I am assuming you mean you have ONE loconet cable between the Zephyr and the DB150 - other stuff can daisy chain off the free port ont he DB150 or free port on the Zephyr. It is OK to have stuff in between, like Zephyr --- UP5 --- DB150.
You should also connect a wire between the GND on the Zephyr and the GND on the DB150, although if not using the Zephyr's track output this is not critical.
If there any indication on the Zephyr? If the display reads anything but a loco address, it may not be seeing the DB150 in booster mode and instead think there is a second command station.
What is the status of the lights on the DB150?
Do your other throttles work, just not the Zephyr panel?
If you wired the loconet as layout --- DB150 -- Zephyr --- layout and it shorts, you may just have a bad cable in there, or perhaps the jack is damaged on the DB150 or the Zephyr - look in the Loconet connectioons and see if the 6 wires are all in a line and one hasn't been bent out of position, that would cause a short when the cable was plugged in.
When you say it is shorted, is it shorted for good, or are you getting beeps from the DB150 when you turn it on? If you power both the Zephyr and DB150 on at the same time, and the DB150 is configured as a booster (the gnd to config a jumper), it will cycle faster than the Zephyr and will start beeping that there is no command station detected. It will still work fine once the Zephyr finishes starting up. It's one more beep (or maybe one less) than the short circuit beeping.
When I had this issue yesterday, the Zephyr displayed an address but would not connect with the loco. Today, I connected the loconet cable from the Zephyr to another UP5 (wired the loconet as; layout --- DB150 -- layout---Zephyr ) and it seemed to work OK and I could control an engine from it, but, then I tried to run the Genesis Big Boy(where this all started!) and the address 4016 showed in the display but my BLI Hudson (Add 44) responded to the throttle commands?? I then dispatched the BB (4016) and addressed the Hudson(44) and it worked OK. However, I noticed when inputting an address on the Zephyr, the display shows another totally disconnected and non-related address until I press the 'loco' button to confirm it, then the input address appears?? I tried a couple of other locos and most worked OK, but one or two didn't?? I finally removed loconet from the Zephyr and all other throttles stilll work just fine and all locos operate as they should. I think the Zephyr may be the problem but I don't know how to verify that. Since I now have two functioning throttles (DT402D and DT4?) I may send the Zephyr to Digitrax for an overhaul or ????????.
The Athearn BB runs just fine now and hasn't stopped or shown any signs of malfunction. The Rivarossi BB has stopped working again, no life at all, so I think that has an electrical connection issue (a task for another time).
I also noticed that my AC amp meter (wired into the track power) is showing over 1.5 amps when I had 3 sound locos running at the same time today, which is probably about right.
In the meantime I will operate with the two throttles until I figure out what to do with the Zephyr. I haven't looked at the loconet jacks on the Zephyr to see if any wires are bent or otherwise mishappen. Will do that tonight. Thanks for all your help on this; it is greatly appreciated.
BTW, the DB150 and Zephyr both displayed steady on LED indicators.
PS: I hope I am making this as clear as I can. I am raising, training as a throttle operator, and tolerating my 6 year old great grandson and he keeps my adjenda in a turmoil most of the time.
Hmm, that is rather strange, as the only address that should show on the Zephyr is the address selected on the built-in throttle. In my case, I just had the Zephyr on the floor under the layout, I pretty much stopped using the Zephyr console throttle as soon as I got a DT400 as I much prefer the encoder type throttles. Plus using the DT400 to proogram a decoder via the Zephyr program track worked in cases where using the Zephyr console to do the same thing failed.
Sticking a UP5 in between the DB150 and the Zephyr on the Loconet shouldn't make any difference, but since it did, it suggest a possible bad cable.
If you unplug the Zephyr from the Loconet and take off the Config A to GND jumper on the DB150, it will operate as a command station using your other throttles, so you can try running that way and seeing if there are any issues with your locos. All other procedures are the same as using those throttles with the Zephyr, just that to turn on track power you would need the DT402 (which also works to turn the track power on/off on the Zephyr, but since the Zephyr has a power button right there, its easier to hit).
Since you have a meter in the track power - does it show any signs of life when you put the Rivarossi loco on the track, or if you jiggle it? If there's a bad contact the meter should jump around as it makes and breaks contact. If it jumps high, there may be an intrnal short in the loco. If it never changes no matter what, then there is an open in the power path inside the loco somewhere.
Best way to test out the Zephyr is to hook it to a piece of flex track and see if you cna operate any locos on it. It does sound like there is something going on there that may warrant a Florida vacation. It's probbaly worth it to have it repaired, it's like $25 for the Zephyr. Would be nice to have some sort of repeatable error you can pass along to avoid just having it come back as no problem found, random intermittent errors are nearly impossible to find.
The cable I used from Zephyr is the same one I now have on the DB150 so I didn't think it would be bad since everything works as it should (without the Zephyr).
I didn't see any change on the amp meter so again I am assuming there is an open circuit inside the Rivarossi Big Boy. That is what happened the last time it stopped running. Looks like another disassembly job.
I will try the Zephyr on a test track to see if all goes OK or not. If not, then the $25 or so for Digitrax repair isn't too bad. If it is an intermittant problem then I can only hope it happens when Digitrax has it. I only paid $77 for it a few years ago so it was an inexpensive start into DCC. In the meantime I am running the DB150 as a command station as you mentioned, and the two throttles (DT402D and UT4) will work until I get the Zephyr back into operation (my ggrandson likes the Zephyr throttle!).
I tested the Zephyr on a 36" track today and it worked just fine? I tried two different locos and they both responded to throttle commands and there wasn't any flikering on the display or irradic nomenclature? I take this as a OK on the Zephyr.
I looked at the loconet jacks on the Zephyr and didn't see anything wrong in there. I then turned to the loconet cables and remembered I had a Digitrax LT1 decoder/cable tester. I tried the tester on 3 of the cables and they all showed only 3 LED's lighting up? The instructions says all four should light if the cable is OK. I tested a brand new cable (All Electronics; same ones I use on the entire layout) and it tested bad? Only 3 LED's on. I don't know if there is a way to check the LED's on the LT1 as they are SMD's. I guess I could try to apply 3 VDC to each side and see if they light? I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier???? Any other suggestions on testing the cables? Can I just test with VOM from one wire to the other end or is there something else that need to be tested? I am not familiar with these cables other than these are wired direct thru and not crossed as in PC applications. I do have a cable crimp tool for these RG cables and have some spare end plugs. I didn't make any of the cables on the layout (bought it to repair the cable on my UT4).
You only get 3 lights unless a throttle is plugged in, but IIRC the Zephyr throttle counts so you get 4 plugged in to the Zephyr, but if you plug a cable into the DB150 and the LT1 and nothing else is plugged in, then you will only get 3 lights, plug in one of your throttles to the other Loconet port and you should get all 4 if the cable is good. I could be wrong about the Zephyr, try the same thing if you are testing the cable there.
It would appear your Zephyr is working OK, you were probably right on the threshold of current capcity with it powering your layout. However that does not explain why the throttle did not work when plugged in with the DB150. You can, as an alternative, configure the Zephyr as a booster and leave the DB150 as command station (no jumper on config A and ground) in which case the Zephyr throttle still works, but since the DB150 is the command station you have no read/write program track. It really shouldn;t matter which unit is set as the command station as long as only one of them is, the throttle on the Zephyr should always work.
I know you've done it already, but perhaps another OpSw39 reset wouldn't hurt. Do both units - with the DB150 configured as command station, set the switch on the front to OpSW the close sw39. Then put the switch back to run and turn off the power. Put the jumper back in for config A to ground, and connect the Zephyr. Turn on the Zephyr and do an OpSw 39 reset on it. Power off and back on, then once the Zephyr is up, power on the DB150.
I tested the LT1 SMD's this am and they all work when 3 vdc is applied to both contacts so I now know they are good and the LT1 should be OK. I tested 2 of the loconet cables after that and had 2 throttles connected and still only get 3 LED lights on. I reconnected the Zephyr to one of the UP5 terminals and it is giving messed up signals again??? I attached a diagram of my loconet as it now stands. I won't have time to work on this until tonight. I had the Zephyr connected to the #1 UP5 today. If I connect a cable from the DB150 to the Zephyr and from the Zephyr to the #1 UP5, I get the scrambled display when trying to address an engine?
I will try some of your other suggestions tonight, hopefully. There has to be some simple fix here, just not obvious yet? Again, thanks for the help and hopefully we will get to the bottom of it soon.
This is very strange. With the throttle in one port of either the DB150 or Zephyr, and a loconet cable in the other, LT1 at the far end of the cable, you should get 4 lights if the cable is good.
Maybe time to divide and conquer, make it as simple as possible - DB150 with one loconet cable going to the Zephyr and nothign else. See if it works. If not, swap cabled between the Zephyr and DB150, in case you have a bad cable. If it fails no matter which cable you try, then we have another issue, if you find oen that works, then the other cable is bad. If you get it to work, then start reconnecting the rest of the panels and check operation after each one.