Hello,
I am stumped here. btw this is a DC layout.
This is the part of the layout I am trying to figure the proper way to wire for 3 Tyco locos.
All my other locos make the crossover with no trouble but the Tycos' wheels are powered differently.
The two front left wheels are powered positive, the two rear right wheels are negative.
This causes the loco to stop halfway on point A and B.
Also, when the loco enters the Crossover going forward one rail is positive, but when it exits the Crossover the polarity reverses because on the Main Oval the new direction is reverse.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how this can be wired with on - off toggles switches ar maybe set it up as a reverse loop, although due to the polarity change, is that possible?
Thanks for any help
I know this is just an image but in Paint or another app the print is readable.
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/current_zpsg0m1ez9s.jpg
cplmckenzie
What you have there is not a crossover, but a reverse loop. Instead of a seperate power pack running that track, it should be driven from the same pack that runs the loop of track around the whole thing, and you will need to wire in an additonal reversing switch, or else use the Atlas track components and follow their wiring guides, so that as the train enters the reverse loop cutoff at A, one it is fully within the A-B section, you flip the switch which changes the polarity of the main line (everything OUTSIDE of the A-B isolated section) and then the train can smoothly exit the reverse loop connection at B. Or vice-versa.
One of the best sources for info on this, because of pictorial diagrams, is the old Linn Westcott "How to Wire Your Model Railroad" book, or any of the older layout books - HO Railroad That Grows has the wiring info in, or if you have the All Access Pass you can look up old issues, one that has complete info on wiring stuff is the one on building the Manchester & Paradise
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Good Morning (EST)
Thank you for replying. You know I was thinking the same thing. So I wired in a on-off-on DPDT switch along the same principles as my reverse loop in another part of my layout ( where both ends of the loop are completely blocked off from the main oval), but it didn't work.
See pictures of working reverse loop here...
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_060437_zpsr2fplcoh.jpg
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_060456_zps9vtqpb8n.jpg
I believe(?) because in the diagram at point A the polarity coming from the main oval and entering the crossover(?) track is the same on both rails, but in leaving at point B the rail polarity changes as going back to the main oval the direction changes to backwards.
Also, why do all my other locos (either powered and negatives wheels being on the same truck whether front or rear) crossover with no problems.
As opposed to my Tycos' which have the wheels wired differently. See original post for description.
btw. I see you are in PA. So am I in New Castle.
cplmckenzie The two front left wheels are powered positive, the two rear right wheels are negative.
Rich
Alton Junction
Yes that is true but after throughly looking over some of the diagrams at hoseeker and actually dismantling a couple for parts, that is the way they are wired.
If all your other equipment makes it through Your reverse loop ok...why don't You just switch the motor leads on the Tyco's and forget about changing Your wiring..for it very well might happen that when You change the way You have it wired and the Tyco's make it ok, all Your other engines won't....so You are back to square one!
Generally....engines are wired right side positive when facing forward and left side negative. There have been some older Tyco engines that were wired Left pick-up positive...I know...I had some 0-4-0 Shifter's as they were called back then and that's how they were wired.
Good Luck!
Frank
Hello
And thanks for responding.
These are Tyco GP20s'...see images for wheel layout.
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_105153_zpstyjpfkao.jpg
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_105302_zpshpkkwtmr.jpg
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_105231_zpsiwidowq5.jpg
Also please see the .jpg in my original post for a description of my problem area, as I am not sure this is a "true" reverse loop.
Now the images in my second post is a "true" reverse loop on another part of my layout and it works fine with all my locos.
Now these are pictures of my actual problem area.
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_105951_zpsrrjezy0e.jpg
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_110011_zpsphzlheph.jpg
Thanks.
In the diagram included in your original post, the section of track between points A and B is what I refer to as a "reversing section". So, on your DC powered layout, you are going to need a DPDT switch to manually flip the polarities inside the reversing section.
With the DPDT correctly wired and in place, if all of your non-Tyco locomotives work correctly, then the reversing section is wired and gapped correctly. You are going to have to re-wire the power pick-up wires on the Tyco locomotives.
cplmckenzieSo I wired in a on-off-on DPDT switch along the same principles as my reverse loop in another part of my layout ( where both ends of the loop are completely blocked off from the main oval), but it didn't work.
So, if I understand correctly the return loop where everything works you have both rails at each end of the loop gapped with insulators.
But the reverse section where there is a problem both rails at each end are not gapped. Is that correct? If so, you need to gap both ends of both rails.
Also, if I remember my reverse loop wiring, I think you need to have two dp/dt toggle switches, one for the loop and one for the rest of the railroad.
maxman cplmckenzie So I wired in a on-off-on DPDT switch along the same principles as my reverse loop in another part of my layout ( where both ends of the loop are completely blocked off from the main oval), but it didn't work. So, if I understand correctly the return loop where everything works you have both rails at each end of the loop gapped with insulators. But the reverse section where there is a problem both rails at each end are not gapped. Is that correct? If so, you need to gap both ends of both rails. Also, if I remember my reverse loop wiring, I think you need to have two dp/dt toggle switches, one for the loop and one for the rest of the railroad.
cplmckenzie So I wired in a on-off-on DPDT switch along the same principles as my reverse loop in another part of my layout ( where both ends of the loop are completely blocked off from the main oval), but it didn't work.
No all rails in both section a gapped (both rails).
Yes tested many times, all directions and the non Tycos run fine
Hey Rich,
Thank you. These pics are the best I could come up with.
These trucks came out of some Tyco loco I had to salvage. Out of 6 total I got 3 running.I will try to explain them.
These first images are front and rear trucks. Front trucks to the left. There is a black wire coming from the rear trucks (on the right) that leads to the front trucks.
Notice the pickup wheels on the front trucks.
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_164000_zps8fhq1hyv.jpg
Now the same trucks flipped around.Rear trucks on the left(the black wire from them can be better seen and notice the pickup wheels)
Front truck on the right (notice the non pickup wheels.
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_164041_zpsmjbdvgx7.jpg
Now these pics are from a working loco with the center weight removed. Hopefully you can make out the black wire running from rear truck to front truck
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_164556_zpsr3fh2qpf.jpg
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/IMG_20160722_164610_zpsw65mekuf.jpg
Any directions on how to rewire these is appreciated.
So, it sounds like the layout is wired and gapped correctly.
That being the case, why not follow Frank's advice and rewire the trucks - - right side positive and left side negative?
Well, I had looked at that option a while ago because it seemed like the likely solution but.
1. I am pretty new at this model railroading stuff, a year next month.
2. I know you can't make it out in the pics I posted but the design of the wheel setup, I believe presents a problem,.
On the other side of the powered wheels are non pickup wheels with gear setups, both front and rear trucks.
To make a long story short, I have no idea of where to begin to make this type of modification....uuummmm.
Let me ask a question here.
In my first .jpg post, at point B where the rail polarity changes (positive to negative and negative to positive) instead of insulating both rails I leave the (I believe) the negative rail connecting and put in an on/off toggle switch. Because at other places in my layout where I have these toggle switches, the Tycos cross with no problems.
Is that possible?
The tail end of the turnout at point A and the tail end of the turnout at point B should be gapped. A DPDT switch should control the polarities inside the reversing section and another DPDT switch should control the polarities on the main layout.
To quote a section of commentary from the azatrax web site, "On layouts with DC power, the track power connections must be swapped on the track that is not occupied by the train. On DC layouts, the track polarity (which rail is positive vs. negative) determines the direction of train travel. If we changed the polarity of the loop power while the train is in the loop, the train would suddenly change direction. Therefor we must change the main track polarity while the train is on the loop track".
cplmckenzie On the other side of the powered wheels are non pickup wheels with gear setups, both front and rear trucks.
Yes, you are right and that is correct.
Both points A and B are gapped and while the loco is between A and B (on the loop), I change the polarity (direction) from forward to reverse, it still stops.
I would guess there is no immediate solution. I had been wanting to use my Tycos in my train operations. I will just have to let the yard loco break a train apart to put cars in my yard.
I don't model a particular Railroad but I model eras for Railroads nationwide.
I have Southern, Pennsylvania, Penn Central, Conrail, CSX and Norfolk Southern as my east coast era trains and Union Pacific, Western Pacific, Burlington Northern, Santa Fe and BNSF as my western trains.
Most of my western trains are the Tycos. I have a UP and a BNSF that are not Tycos.
I will just have to operate (hopefully) keeping my Tycos off that piece of track.
I have learned that "a solution will eventually come".
Thanks for all you guys help.
Yes, therein lies the entire problem.
As only side of each truck is powered, front positive - rear negative. When it enters the section of track or exits that section, the loco is stuck, half in - half out.
I won't get into the reversing wiring...Rich has that about covered. I will say, that what I had suspected...that Your Tyco engines are really pretty old train set quality, with two wheel pick-up on one side of each truck and even the brass wheels for pick-up and was NOT unusual to be wired left rail positive, period, which can cause more headaches with conductivity..constant cleaning being one of them. As far as getting them to work, on Your existing set-up, You don't need to rewire the trucks, just switch the two leads on the motor. Hopefully You have a soldering iron and know how to use it. I'm not going to bash Your engines, but I will say, it has been proven that those engine set-ups were not the best, as far as reliability was concerned. Basically around the Christmas tree train set, for not a whole bunch of money.
Edit: I see You have made a decision while I was typing My msg. So if You want to try what I suggested and do not have a soldering iron and want to test one...just clip the wires at the motor leaving some excess and stripe some insulation from the wires and re-connect them to the motor in reverse of what they were..You can tape them temporarily and leave the shell off, then test them. Pay special attention to how they were wired before switching them, for I believe the wires may be the same color.
Hiya Frank,
And thanks. So those to two leads connected to the motor, in switching them around will change (current) left side positive to left side negative and the same with the rear trucks (current) right side negative to right side positive.
Are the Tyco locomotives running in the correct direction on the main (non-reversing section) section of the layout?
It's a bit hard to tell from your explanation and the photos, but I think that there are multiple things going on. The basic issue is perhaps the way you have wired and are operating the reversing connection. If you are using only the power pack's forward/reverse switch, there will be cases where the TYCO trucks bridge the gap and it will fail.
The bullet-proof way is to wire in additional DPDT switches (if you already have these, then I didn't understand your explanation). One to each reversing section and one to the main line.
These are used to match the polarities of the reversing section to the mainline as you enter and then match again as you exit by flipping the polarity of the main line while the train is within the reversing connection. There is no need to touch the forward/reverse switch on the power pack. You need to gap both rails at both ends of the reversing section.
A good book on wiring would answer this and other questions, but here is an image that shows the general concept. Your situation is a bit different because you are cutting across the oval, but it's a similar idea.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I am actually closer to you this weekend than usual - I am near Cochranton.
richhotrain Are the Tyco locomotives running in the correct direction on the main (non-reversing section) section of the layout? Rich
Just caught this now.....but My guess would be that they will only run in the direction that the non-Tycos run when He changes the direction switch on the power pack and then there is the problem with the reversing section like Cuyama mentioned. They are wired to pick-up + positive power from the left rail...where as the other's are wired to pick-up + positive power from the right rail...so it throws off all the reversing sections when the Tyco's are used because He has to switch the reverse switch on the power pack to get them to go in the same direction as the others and there probably is more going on than that even. Also, I'm willing to bet that the non-Tyco's will not run together with the Tyco's......not the way they are wired.
Hopefully Randy can help Him out...He said He's not that far from the OP.
Take Care!
zstripe richhotrain Are the Tyco locomotives running in the correct direction on the main (non-reversing section) section of the layout? Rich Just caught this now.....but My guess would be that they will only run in the direction that the non-Tycos run when He changes the direction switch on the power pack and then there is the problem with the reversing section like Cuyama mentioned. They are wired to pick-up + positive power from the left rail...where as the other's are wired to pick-up + positive power from the right rail...so it throws off all the reversing sections when the Tyco's are used because He has to switch the reverse switch on the power pack to get them to go in the same direction as the others and there probably is more going on than that even. Also, I'm willing to bet that the non-Tyco's will not run together with the Tyco's......not the way they are wired. Hopefully Randy can help Him out...He said He's not that far from the OP. Take Care! Frank
The reason that I asked the OP that question was in response to your suggestion, Frank, that he flip the motor leads. I was thinking that it would cause the Tyco loco to run in reverse. But does the DC power pack control direction? In other words, if he flipped the motor leads, would the Tyco loco still run forward unless and until he switched the direction to reverse on the DC power pack?
Rich,
That is what I am trying to say...the OP does not say if He tried to run a non-Tyco and Tyco together and they way it is wired it can't. The non-Tyco's are running forward with a positive right rail...the Tyco's with the left rail pick-up positive can not run forward with the reversing switch on the power pack set the same way as the other's...He would have to switch it. when He does that it won't match up with the way the wiring in the reverse sections are....especially the way they are wired on the trucks...positive on the rear truck and negative on the front truck. The front truck is the first to try to cross in the reversing section, which is a different polarity, but the back truck is the correct polarity...they are actually fighting one another at that point. That's why I suggested a test with switching the motor leads. To see if it was able to make it around the layout, including the reverse sections the way He has it wired for the non-Tyco engines. It more than likely still won't work. The real only solution, is to rewire the pick-ups on the trucks, so they pick-up from both sides of the truck, with positive being on the right side of the engine going forward.
I don't really believe that would be the way to go...unless of course they are somehow dear to Your heart....but they are old trainset quality and the motors were not the greatest to begin with, they also have brass wheels for pick-up. While I'm typing this...I am now wondering if He somehow switched trucks on some of them inadvertantly, when He got three to run, out of the six He said He has.
Who knows were evils lurk. eh?
I'm otta here!
I had an instance yrs. ago on My layout, that an old BB Athearn was playing tug-a-war with itself, before breaker tripped. I had a train running forward west in one block and entered the next block with the front truck and immediately started going in reverse, until the front truck got out of the block and then wanted to go forward again...the breaker finally tripped. I had that block wired in reverse...Me..of all people..LOL,LOL...It happens!