I agree with Southpenn. I have chosen to standardize on Peco Code 83 Electrofrogs exclusively. All you have to do is add insulating rail joiners to both rails of both routes beyond the frog, and supply feeders to those tracks, which you would do anyway. No additional wiring needed other than the normal track feeders. For short spurs that don't need power when thje switch is thrown against them, you don't even have to use the insulating joiners because shorting out the spur doesn't matter. No problems even in crossovers between adjacent tracks.
I have installed over 20 Peco insulated turnouts on my new shelf layout with no operating problems running different size switcher engines.
By using Peco Code100 insulfrog switches and Atlas flex track with Peco rail joiners (which are slightly undersized) conductivity is great even before soldering. I also soldered over ridng feeder wires to selected spur tracks which can be activated by toggle switches when needed. All of my insulated frog Peco switches were purchased within the past two years. Darryl
richhotrain rrinker However, the issue with Insulfrogs is that, due to the very tiny insulated section (nothign shoudl really stall on Insulafrogs, the dead area truly is TINY), it is possible for a wheel tread to bridge the insulation. In DC this usually is a non-issue, by the time any short circuit protection would kick in, the loco has already passed the frog and no short exists. But DCC circuit breakers react almost instantaneously and shut off power. Yes, you can 'fix' this with clear nail polish - but that't not a permanent solution, constant traffic will wear it away and you will have to reapply. And Mr. Murphy says the last crucial bit will wear away ONLY when you are showing off your layout, never when you are just test running some trains in private. Ain't that the truth! The solution, of course, is to reapply the clear nail polish the morning of your public showing. Rich
rrinker However, the issue with Insulfrogs is that, due to the very tiny insulated section (nothign shoudl really stall on Insulafrogs, the dead area truly is TINY), it is possible for a wheel tread to bridge the insulation. In DC this usually is a non-issue, by the time any short circuit protection would kick in, the loco has already passed the frog and no short exists. But DCC circuit breakers react almost instantaneously and shut off power. Yes, you can 'fix' this with clear nail polish - but that't not a permanent solution, constant traffic will wear it away and you will have to reapply. And Mr. Murphy says the last crucial bit will wear away ONLY when you are showing off your layout, never when you are just test running some trains in private.
However, the issue with Insulfrogs is that, due to the very tiny insulated section (nothign shoudl really stall on Insulafrogs, the dead area truly is TINY), it is possible for a wheel tread to bridge the insulation. In DC this usually is a non-issue, by the time any short circuit protection would kick in, the loco has already passed the frog and no short exists. But DCC circuit breakers react almost instantaneously and shut off power. Yes, you can 'fix' this with clear nail polish - but that't not a permanent solution, constant traffic will wear it away and you will have to reapply. And Mr. Murphy says the last crucial bit will wear away ONLY when you are showing off your layout, never when you are just test running some trains in private.
Ain't that the truth!
The solution, of course, is to reapply the clear nail polish the morning of your public showing.
Rich
richhotrainrrinker However, the issue with Insulfrogs is that, due to the very tiny insulated section (nothign shoudl really stall on Insulafrogs, the dead area truly is TINY), it is possible for a wheel tread to bridge the insulation. In DC this usually is a non-issue, by the time any short circuit protection would kick in, the loco has already passed the frog and no short exists. But DCC circuit breakers react almost instantaneously and shut off power. Yes, you can 'fix' this with clear nail polish - but that't not a permanent solution, constant traffic will wear it away and you will have to reapply. And Mr. Murphy says the last crucial bit will wear away ONLY when you are showing off your layout, never when you are just test running some trains in private. Ain't that the truth! The solution, of course, is to reapply the clear nail polish the morning of your public showing. Rich
The other more permanent solution is to file the gap wider at the point of the frogs. By the way, I found a certain manufacturer's locos to be more prone to the shorting problem and even then it only occurred on a relatively small percentage of the turnouts.
Some more $.02
Mark
Alton Junction
Given the choice, it would be (and will be - I've already decided to use Peco code 83 on my new layout) Electrofrogs for DCC. Not just for the fully powered system - I previously used all Atlas custom line turnouts and while I installed wires to power each frog, I never actually hooked any of them up because even my smallest loco, a 44 tonner, did not have any stalling issues. However, the issue with Insulfrogs is that, due to the very tiny insulated section (nothign shoudl really stall on Insulafrogs, the dead area truly is TINY), it is possible for a wheel tread to bridge the insulation. In DC this usually is a non-issue, by the time any short circuit protection would kick in, the loco has already passed the frog and no short exists. But DCC circuit breakers react almost instantaneously and shut off power. Yes, you can 'fix' this with clear nail polish - but that't not a permanent solution, constant traffic will wear it away and you will have to reapply. And Mr. Murphy says the last crucial bit will wear away ONLY when you are showing off your layout, never when you are just test running some trains in private.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
richhotrain tomikawaTT That said, I build solid metal frogs and power them through contacts on whatever moves the points. Even if I used commercial turnouts (nebbah hoppen!) any kind of an insulated frog would be a non-starter. I simply prefer continuous contact, and am quite willing to solder three wires to electrical contacts to get it.
tomikawaTT That said, I build solid metal frogs and power them through contacts on whatever moves the points. Even if I used commercial turnouts (nebbah hoppen!) any kind of an insulated frog would be a non-starter. I simply prefer continuous contact, and am quite willing to solder three wires to electrical contacts to get it.
That said, I build solid metal frogs and power them through contacts on whatever moves the points. Even if I used commercial turnouts (nebbah hoppen!) any kind of an insulated frog would be a non-starter. I simply prefer continuous contact, and am quite willing to solder three wires to electrical contacts to get it.
Additional wiring? ONE additional wire, to the frog itself. Additional gapping? NO. The gaps are already there, as required by my use of the MZL variant of analog DC control. My points are isolated from the closure rails - an open point is electrically dead. The one thing i don't have is those six rail joints right at places where you really don't want kinks. (My frog point rails extend to the clearance line or beyond.)
Note that I never said that my way would be best for everyone. If I've read correctly, Broadway Lion doesn't power his specialwork. Of course, his six car trains pick up from all 24 wheels on each rail. That's 22 more than I use.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with powered frogs)
South Penn I have been doing exactly the same thing for the past 61 years even with Peco insulfrog. Like you say no shorts, no stalling, no problems.
Jack W.
It seems having DCC and switches is a lot more complicated than it has to be. Want to ruin a perfically good switch? Start cutting and soldering on it.
Solution: Install the switch ( no matter what kind ) with insulating rail joiners on the diverging tracks and the main tracks. Done. No wiring, no cutting, no soldering, no trashing a perfically good switch. I have some 20+ year old power routing Shinoharas that work fine with DCC with the insulated rail joiners. No shorts, no stalling, no problems.
Even my old ( 20 years? ) code 100 Shinohara double cross over works fine with DCC. Make sure the phasing on all four tracks is the same, and throw all four switches at the same time. No shorts, no stalling, no problems.
I recently installed some Walthers/Shinohara DCC friendly switches. I installed them the same way. No shorts, no stalling, no problems. I didn't even look at how they were wired. I did notice the frog is isolated from the rails.
A little common sense and thought go a long way to making things easier.
No shorts, no stalling, no problems.
Powering a frog is usually not necessary and when it is, it involves additional wiring and additional gapping. In most instances, insulated frogs are just fine. I have nearly 100 of them on my layout.
Caveats:
Chuck (Modeling Central Japa in September, 1964)
I decided to use Electrofrogs because I have several two axle and three axle critters and rail trucks. The wiring is more complicated but the results in terms of reliable running far outweigh the additional work.
I assume by your question that you have not bought your turnouts yet. If you decide to go the Electrofrog route, make sure you are getting the most recent models. Peco has made several changes to the design over the past few years. The most recent designs make powering the frog with the proper polarity quick and easy. The older designs will require cutting some gaps and attaching feeders which is easier said than done. The problem is that Peco didn't change the model numbers as they modified the turnouts so there is no way of telling what version you have just by looking at the box. The most recent versions will have gaps already cut between the frog and the closure rails. Those gaps are bridged when you buy the turnouts but they are designed to be easily removed. The other thing the most recent Peco Electrofrog turnouts will have is a feeder wire coming from the frog.
I would recommend doing some reading here:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
Edit: Oops, Rich already recommended the site.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
markie97 The insulfrog frog is shorter than an Atlas frog.
The insulfrog frog is shorter than an Atlas frog.
I too use Peco Insulfrog turnouts and install them the way Richotrain does. Power feeds on all three sides. I have had no problems running shorter engines through them such as an NW2. One problem is that some engines will short across the frog and either insulate the frog or file the gap slightly wider. The insulfrog frog is shorter than an Atlas frog.
I also have a couple of the old Walthers electrofrog turnouts and one problem that I have had is not getting power to the point rails because of poor contact. Not sure if this is a problem with the newer units.
The Peco Electrofrog is the switch of choice for both the Club and the HO modular group I'm associated with.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I use Peco Insulfrogs. They are easier to install simply because no additional gapping is required. I add feeders to each and every end of each and every turnout to ensure solid performance.
That said, the frogs are plastic on the Insulfrog, so there is a dead area on the turnout. The Peco Electrofrog is metal, and it is hot out of the box. But, the Electrofrog typically requires additional gapping to isolate the frog and avoid shorts.
I am surprised you have not seen this discussion here before.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Since I model steam & early diesel I had a number of small switchers on my layout. Having live or powered frogs meant there was no hesitation whenever I operated them through a turnout using DCC. I also prefer their more realistic look and operation because they lack the ugly plastic insulation around the frog.
Oh, and my turnout of choice? - Fast Tracks.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I know this thread is probably going to open a can of worms and has most likely been covered before But I want to know from all members , from their experience, what they are using (or have used).
Which is better for DCC ? Insulfrogs or electrofrogs! Does it matter? Or is it down to what is in your locomotive roster? Smaller engines a problem,, bigger engines... Not so much? Go for it members, let me here from you all!!!